(LOCKED) Going for Gold: Wonders

[azum4roll]

Summer Palace: it's not that it's very bad wonder, but the bonus it provides feels very weak compared to it's opportunity cost. It arrives in era overloaded with much more important wonders. Even having tech advantage and being able to comfortably build it I don't want to increase the production cost of other, more important wonders. Even for a civ going for DV it doesn't look that much appealing.

It's not really meant for DV. You just have an easier time befriending/allying faraway/blocked CS with it for the time it matters, for the yields and votes.

 

[a3kov]

It's not really meant for DV. You just have an easier time befriending/allying faraway/blocked CS with it for the time it matters, for the yields and votes.

I meant somebody going for DV might get the most benefit of this wonder.

 

[Drakle]

Bletchley Park comes way too late to be giving a free research lab. It is multiple techs later. I built the Research lab well before it.

Anyway, the last era has way too many Free Great Scientists and Science. Whoever is the tech leader, can easily blaze through techs, and go from a slight lead to dominating.

Also, CERN is weird. 2 free techs, but it is in the final row of tech. I'm sure you can beeline to it, and grab the others, but it just means the general end of the game ends so quickly.

I was playing Tradition Byzantium on Epic and the buying of GS, plus all the ones granted from wonders/International Space Station meant the last era ended in a tiny amount of time.

Of course, I wasn't aiming for a Science victory, just finishing building the cultural end wonder.

 

[phantomaxl1207]

Bletchley Park should come a tier earlier.

Hubble and CERN give the Player that picks them up too fast of a Science victory. All the extra science you can get in Information can make it the faster Era to play through.

 

[Stalker0]

I don't think there has been a single game where I got Bletchley Park or the CN tower and didn't already have the free building it gives me.

 

[Stalker0]

I decided to take this out of my strategy post and into the full wonder thread proper.

So generally what I'm finding is that on Deity there is a sliver of time where AI bonuses have kicked in hard, and Player optimization has not yet countered....where certain wonders are exceedingly hard to get. It usually requires extraordinary measures or just plain luck to bag these wonders.

My main list:

Hardest Wonders
Great Library
Hanging Gardens

Very Difficult Wonders
Parthenon
Oracle

Before these wonders, I find the AI bonuses haven't kicked in so strongly yet and I have a good chance at getting them with reasonable play (Stonehenge, Pyramids, ToA, MoH). And then later wonders I've had enough time to optimize that I can make a go for if I wish to. So its only this particular section of time that is the trouble spot.

Now, is there anything to be done about that? I don't know, but I do call it out because at least on Deity its a sore spot.

Is it possible to increase the runner up culture bonus for these specific wonders, so its not sooo much of a gamble to go for them on Deity?

 

[Stalker0]

Hubble and CERN give the Player that picks them up too fast of a Science victory. All the extra science you can get in Information can make it the faster Era to play through.

I do think Hubble's GS can be lowered to 1. Honestly the hidden gem of Hubble is the bonus 25% extra prod bonus to parts, that's actually a pretty solid bonus when every turn matters as your building your parts. I would be fine with lowering hubble's bonus.

Part of me wonders if CERN should be on the south side of the tree. Hubble is basically the north's side slingshot to an SV, and honestly a lot of time I don't even need CERN. Perhaps CERN could instead serve for the more warmonger player who needs to pivot and pick up some extra science for a chance at SV if the wars just aren't going the way they need to.

 

[CrazyG]

Agree on changing CERN.

Hardest Wonders
Great Library
Hanging Gardens

I find Hanging Gardens to be achievable with a great engineer, which with tradition and goddess of beauty is somewhat consistent. Often the AI who get mathematics builds the Roman Forum instead too.

Very much agree on the others but I don't know if it's a problem per se. They are possible, things like early game faith + council of elders makes Oracle achievable.

 

[pineappledan]

This was brought up on the discord, and thought maybe it should come here.
Pantheon Faith cost is 300% larger on Marathon Speed, but Instant Yields only scale by 200%

As a result:
On Standard Speed, Stonehenge gives 50Faith and you need 40Faith to found.
On Marathon Speed, Stonehenge gives 100Faith and you need 120Faith to found.

So, on standard, Stonehenge instantly gives you a pantheon, while on Marathon, you still have 10 turns after building Stonehenge. Is it worth changing the instant yield on construction of Stonehenge to 60 so that the wonder founds a Pantheon on all game speeds?

 

[Ranslee]

Given that the main purpose of Stonehenge is to get a pantheon with it right away, it definitely should give 60 faith.

 

[Stalker0]

Let me also throw in Cristo Redento for a moment. Obviously its meant as a CV wonder...but honestly I'm not sure it actually does much for a CV. 25 base tourism just doesn't move the needle much by this point in the game, and the hotel bonus is piddly.

 

[Omen of Peace]

This was brought up on the discord, and thought maybe it should come here.
Pantheon Faith cost is 300% larger on Marathon Speed, but Instant Yields only scale by 200%

As a result:
On Standard Speed, Stonehenge gives 50Faith and you need 40Faith to found.
On Marathon Speed, Stonehenge gives 100Faith and you need 120Faith to found.

So, on standard, Stonehenge instantly gives you a pantheon, while on Marathon, you still have 10 turns after building Stonehenge. Is it worth changing the instant yield on construction of Stonehenge to 60 so that the wonder founds a Pantheon on all game speeds?

It indeed applies to all Instant yields, but I wonder why we should single out Stonehenge? Why not have instant yields scale the same as other metrics.

It's out of whack on Quick as well: instant yields are 1/2, when the typical scaling is 2/3, so Stonehenge does not grant a pantheon either.

 

[pineappledan]

With the spy change, Bletchley Park and Motherland Calls need to be looked at.

this the what the 3 ideology wonders do now, besides the free social policy:

Statue of Liberty: +1 to all specialists on Empire
Prora: 1 for every 2 Social policies you have adopted. 25 whenever you pillage a tile, scaling with era
Motherland Calls: Free Police Station and -1distress in this city.​

What Motherland used to do in addition to that:

No unrest/rebellion from spies in this city
increases chance to cause unrest and rebellion via advanced actions.
increases chance of building sabotage via advanced action

​

Personal opinion on potential changes to Motherland Calls
It hasn't been given anything to compensate for the loss of the spy actions, and is definitely the weakest of the 3 wonders now.
Motherland Calls could be changed so it's no longer an espionage wonder at all, since there is nothing about the wonder that thematically lends itself to that.
Personally, I think some bonus to war weariness or attrition damage against an enemy makes sense, since the monument is a memorial for Stalingrad, and is also built on the tumulus of a Golden Horde warlord.
Could alter the minefield damage code to create some sort of land wonder equivalent to make the city a bloodbath to try to take/hold.

What Bletchley Park Does now:

Free Research Lab
Scientist Specialists gain +1 on Empire
2 free Spies (scaling with number of city-states in game)
levels up all spies
improves city security by 15% in all cities​

What Bletchley Park used to do in addition to the above:

increases chance to steal science via advanced action
increases chance to disrupt world wonders via advanced action
Disabled spies from failing Advanced action missions (ie. they always succeed)
​

Personal opinion on potential changes to Bletchley Park

This is tricky, because Bletchley Park is extremely powerful even without its spy actions bonuses. It makes me wonder why it was so powerful in the first place?
It unlocks at the same tech as the NIA, so that's 3 spies from national/world wonders and +2 levels on all spies all unlocked at the same tech. Bletchley Park, in combination with NIA, eliminates spy levelling on empire by just making all your spies max level. I think it's a bit of a silly wonder, but that's a problem that existed before the espionage change.
I think the NIA should lose the free level on all spies, so Bletchley is the wonder that does that exclusively.
I would like to see Bletchley lose it's free spies, so NIA is more spies, and Bletchley is better spies, so they aren't doubled up on each other so overtly.
With the Events system integration, I think Bletchley could have a unique spy action that it unlocks on spies located in enemy major civilizations.
Bletchley Park is the place that deciphered the Germans' Enigma code and gave them access to Germany's diplomatic and military correspondence. So, a unique spy action that increases vision of the enemy cities, cripples their diplomatic missions in way (like giving a negative Influence on that civ's diplo unit missions), or revealing all their invisible units.​

 

[phantomaxl1207]

Bletchley should come earlier as well.

 

[Stalker0]

With the spy change, Bletchley Park and Motherland Calls need to be looked at.

I don't necessarily disagree with you but I do have some counterthoughts on Motherland Calls.

• Motherland calls has the best tech tree position. Replaceable Parts gives you one of the last truly great buildings in the wire service. Flight comes later and Biology is a weaker tech overall. So MC has some innate positional advantages over the other two wonders.
• MCs vote bonuses is generally better than Statue of Liberty, so that's is one benefit not mentioned.
• Honestly I never considered the spy bonuses with MC before, if it helped me at all I never noticed. So I consider the nerf like a 1%.

Now I don't mind the idea that MC doesn't provide spy bonuses, as you said there is no innate reason it needs to. But if there is a buff it should be very very light. Frankly, regardless of what you do I'm still getting the thing for the free policy, that's why you take it.



On Bletchley, so while the bonuses seemed good on paper, we have to remember the context (before recent change):

• Free Research Lab - I always had the lab by this point anyway.
• Scientist Specialists gain +1 on Empire - Such a minor bonus this late in the game, l would honestly be surprised if it actually moved the needle.
• 2 free Spies (scaling with number of city-states in game) - These spies to me were useful for two things: NIA bonuses, and combined with covert action (freedom) for more coup chances.
• levels up all spies - only real benefit here was you could coup and lose a spy, and then immediately coup with a good spy again.
• improves city security by 15% in all cities - With rationalism's innate bonus here, I am already practically immune to spy actions anyway.

So once you remove all of the "ribbons", all Bletchley really did was give you better and more coups before. That's a solid benefit, but nothing outrageous. I generally considered it a pretty weak wonder, which was fine considering the power of Rationalism. Only Industry has a truly "good" wonder, which again is apart of its design balance and is fine.


So that was the past, how about now? (assuming we even keep the new system, I'm not fully convinced yet myself). Now in theory there are more things to do with spies, and more ways for them to die. So in theory the free spies and free levels will be more overly useful. How much the 15% security actually matters is a wait and see....right now it seems very easy to find security 1 cities so its not like the 15% is going to fundamentally change anything.

So Bletchley already seems stronger in this version, or it least gaining reasonable benefits from the ones lost. And its benefits are more direct now, as opposed to the loose and vague bonuses of spy actions. So I'm not seeing a strong need to change it at the moment, certainly not until the spy action system is cleaned up and finalized (or thrown out).

 

[pineappledan]

MCs vote bonuses is generally better than Statue of Liberty, so that's is one benefit not mentioned.

Not sure what you mean here? I’m unaware of any vote bonus on MC

So Bletchley already seems stronger in this version, or it least gaining reasonable benefits from the ones lost. And its benefits are more direct now, as opposed to the loose and vague bonuses of spy actions. So I'm not seeing a strong need to change it at the moment, certainly not until the spy action system is cleaned up and finalized (or thrown out).

I haven’t been able to finish a game with the new espionage system, the updates keep rolling so fast, and maintaining mod compatibility is my priority over completing a game. As I said, Bletchley is plenty strong in this incarnation, but I take issue with how all of its bonuses are either doubled up on the NIA (more spies and levels) or doubled up on existing rationalism bonuses (global espionage modifier)

 

[Stalker0]

Not sure what you mean here? I’m unaware of any vote bonus on MC
I haven’t been able to finish a game with the new espionage system, the updates keep rolling so fast, and maintaining mod compatibility is my priority over completing a game. As I said, Bletchley is plenty strong in this incarnation, but I take issue with how all of its bonuses are either doubled up on the NIA (more spies and levels) or doubled up on existing rationalism bonuses (global espionage modifier)

Ah your right got my wonder bonus confused with the national bonus.

You have an important modmod so I can understand the desire to keep it updated. That said, I would say this is really a "beta beta" version, this isn;t just some balance changes, we are trying out a whole new concept. So it may be worth holding just a bit, for as you said changes are coming lightning fast, and at the end of the day we don't even know if this system will remain. But that's just one outsiders perspective, you obviously have your mod mod audience to consider.

 

[pineappledan]

The other semi-issue I see is that integrating the event system with espionage in this way means that espionage has really been opened up. Like, a lot.

We could add policy/ideology/tech/building/wonder unlocks for spy actions now. And like in the previous version, we can also use all those prerequisites to block certain actions.

So as it stands now, the espionage system is under-leveraged. G just created this very powerful and flexible new tool, and I think adding a unique mission or augmentation of the system at Bletchley Park would be a good way to capitalize on that.

 

[InkAxis]

I think the NIA should lose the free level on all spies, so Bletchley is the wonder that does that exclusively.
I would like to see Bletchley lose it's free spies, so NIA is more spies, and Bletchley is better spies, so they aren't doubled up on each other so overtly.

I always had the lab by this point anyway....With rationalism's innate bonus here, I am already practically immune to spy actions anyway.... So once you remove all of the "ribbons", all Bletchley really did was give you better and more coups before.

It seems you both agree that Bletchley Park basically had bonuses that were the same as something else, nothing interesting. So I agree, we should add a new spy action as that seems more interesting.

 

[CrazyG]

Even if these espionage changes never occurred, I think Bletchley could use a rework.

We should brainstorm but the details likely won't happen until the dust settles on regular spies.