Longshot Combat

Is this less detailed than what you proposed? Is this less realistic? Yes, but I think it is probably more playable.
Ammo is pushing it an brings too many variables into play. The reason why Fuel is important interms of gameplay is because it can be cut off as I described above (i.e. mechanized units depend on it for movement). Supply is a different matter all together because it limits the duration of time ANY unit can stay outside friendly territory.
Granted, Supply would definitely be the one I would pick if I had the choice. Supply is just to keep the game slightly realistic and helps to minimize the effect of sending Armies across the globe with no need for support. But Fuel is o a ar more strategic nature. It irritates me that the Germans in a Civ3 WW2 scenario can just prance about the map with no limitation whatsoever. Their subs never have to return to port, their Panzers can cross Europe without ever touching a city, ect. German expansion during WW2 was highly resource-oriented. Essentially, all modern scenarios (or even the Modern Age in the core game for that matter) lack this crucial factor.

But first designers need to include a supply factor (which IS essential), then we'll talk about fuel. I can't imagine why anyone would object to that unless it's because they think it would just make the game harder (i.e. more 'realistic').

I think I mentioned in another thread that the air unit 'Range' field could double as Supply if activated for land/sea units.
 
Originally posted by warpstorm
Commander Bello, the problem with having units consume population is that the AI just doesn't get it. The AI is programmed to crank out units (especially at the upper difficulty levels as they are cheap for them and have very little upkeep cost). This will decimate their cities and make for an easy game for the human player.

It's just the opposite way!
I've tested it out yesterday and have learned, that it really makes for a different game!
Ok, short summary of the stat's:
All units (except naval and air) consume 1 pop (but may join towns again). For naval and air units I decided to produce them just "the old-fashioned way" to simulate the dependance from technical means.
Huge map w/ 256+256 tiles and Pangea setting. Monarch level.
Me (Germans) sitting on the second (in size) continent, between the Americans (to the north), the Mongols (to the west) and the Greek (to the south). Ah, and the Vikings (Scandinavians) at the northeast.
Additionally, I'v boosted up the bonus ressources (more food, more commerce, more everything).
Other nations: Egypt, Korea, Celts, Romans, Russians (did I miss somebody?), all of them somewhere at the other side of the globe.
State of the game at 1000 AD: Germans (me) being the largest nation (by inhabitants), being a republic since centuries. German border towns hold 3 units each (2 defenders, 1 counter-attack force). And all interior towns just one unit...
And now the surprise: Mongols and Russians have a much stronger army than mine!
Especially in the beginning, while under despotism, you are constantly fighting to hold your cities in balance. You have to produce military units to defend your marching settlers, but you instantly loose production capabilities. No way to produce surplus units...
Then you spot the evil Mongols amassing troops somewhere in the vicinity of your latest towns and endangering your newly found luxuries.... So, your empire has to produce more military units, thus limiting your chances to build improvements and wonders in time...
In principle, I have no reserves anywhere to cover an successful enemy attack....
Really an interesting game - and I am far away from even thinking about performing an attack of my own. By heavy trading and bribing I am keeping peace with the Mongols. Due to the width of my empire, I have to pay sums and sums of money for production, since corruption really begins to become a pain in the .... Due to that, science is just at 40 (sometimes at 50) per cent.
 
That's also the result I got when I played and the AI cities tend to grow normally. I am assuming that the AI uses the same logic mechanism with the population-consuming units as it does with Settlers and Workers (i.e. takes population loss into account and will compensate).

Here's a neat idea that wouldn't work for the AI but would add a new element to your game:
Mechanized units (that don't consume Citizens) upgrade to 'Materiel' unit instead of the next unit in line and take away the mech. unit's ability to Disband. 'Materiel' is a defenceless unit that costs a lot so that when you disband it, you get shields. This means that if you want to disband the mech. unit, you have to upgrade it to Materiel and then disband that unit --it creates shields so as to reproduce the effect of the unit being taken apart and used to make another unit. You will thus have to think twice before building a mechanized unit --makes up for lack of population loss.

Anyway, I'm glad you found the population cost thing useful. Enjoy.
 
Originally posted by Bamspeedy
Do you think the 1 cavalry would go down without a fight? If they are going down, they would take some with them. Under your system, then an A/D difference from 24 to 6 means that the cavalry will most often lose without ANY damage to your attacking units (meaning you lost 0 troops). What happened, did my units surrender and throw down their weapons and then you executed them? Shame on you. Not only do you have 4x the A/D, but 4x the hit points.

Encouraging people to group units I'll admit isn't a bad idea, but you are trying to take it too far. Like I said, give the army 1-3 extra A/D points (for each unit in that army) and you will get a much more favorable result, but not make your armies invincible. Using just 1 unit with an A/D of 6 vs 4 of your units with an A/D value of 24, means I would need probably 100+ units to 'wear your army down'.

Even this system wouldn't stop the crybabies. "The AI's 10 warriors (A/D of 10.10) beat my tank!" "How could guys with wooden clubs beat a tank?!"

Yeah, exactly this would happen in reality....
Let's do a little time travel back to the past. Now, we are at the era of the French-Prussian war of 1871, or at the time of the Civil War in the US.
General Bamspeedy looks through his binocular and spots some of the rotten Commander Bello's riflemen showing up their flags down in the valley. Immediately, he orders his well-trained cavalry battalion to disinfest earth from those little trouble makers.
Seconds later, the earth quakes from the thunder of galloping cavalry men (to be correct, their horses are gallopping ;) ) Their flag waving proudly in the winds...
The chronicler in Gen. Bamspeedy's staff already points his pencil.... but then... whooooh!!
Kabooom, kaboom, kaboom!
Salvos and salvos from the first, the second, the third and the fourth of Commander Bello's battalions are tearing deep holes in the lines of the attacking cavalry.... While battalions #1 and 2 are loading, #3 and 4 are firing, then they switch....
Falling horses force other to step aside. Crying and screaming cavalrists cover the grounds with their blood... The few unfortunate cavalrists to reach the enemy lines are speared by the bayonets of the evil Bello's troops...
And the flag of the cavalry waves no more....

Not a very nice idea to be one of those poor guys who in the morning had fed their horses, not knowing about what would come to happen to them.... In fact, they would have been slaughtered, killed, erased, extuinguished from the face of earth.

And that is, what WILL and what HAS to happen to a single unit which dares to attack a group of units.

Ok.. this is a nightmare.
So, back to the good and brave new world of CIV combat....

Again, Gen. Bamspeedy ordered his battalion to attack. Again, the ground quakes ... ok, you know about the picture of the attacking cavalry already.
But what do silly Commander Bellos troups do?
While battalion #1 is desperately loading their guns, #'s 2-4 are sitting on the gras, smoking, cooking, laundering their uniforms and watching their fellow-men being smashed by the attackers....
Fleeing and screaming infantrymen leave the stage, while battalion #2 now get's up, just to have to face the same fate as their antecessors... and so on and so on....
This imagination is more 'realistic'????
 
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Nice example. Makes the present system seem kind of stupid doesn't it?

Bamspeedy's example of having to spend 100+ units is exaggerated but his arguement of the Cavalry not 'taking any with them' is relevant though because if all units in the Army receive damage simultaneously, they Army will be able to heal itself and start as new whereas the single units will be lost for ever --thus their 'making a scratch' would not count for much. I was thinking that units in the Army would receive slightly varying levels of damage (to reproduce the effect of some soldiers falling before others during the battle). This would mean that although 1 average unit still wouldn't do a whole lot of damage let alone destroy a unit in the Army, it may be able to do so once the units in the Army have recieved a significant amount of damage. Gets a little closer to the present Army combat system.

Of course what would really beef up combat in general is if units caught between two enemy units would lose 50% of their combat values when attacking or defending.
Think the Battle of Waterloo: 2 Armies face-off but then one of them is flanked by another Army that came out of nowhere!
 
Some postings above I already admitted that the distribution of hit points might cause some trouble, no doubt about that...
But this could be handled easily... I would prefer that the most part of hit points would be given to the less experienced single units in the 'army', then....
 
If you beat the 1 guy attacking you, he will wthdraw just before you finish him off and the next guy in line will take his place. This will continue until you 'redline' them all, then the first guy you beat will attack you again and you will finish him this time and do the same to all of them. This means that if you're really lucky, you can potentially beat the whole group.

Do you attack with red-lined units? The AI rarely ever does it. So no wonder you hate the current battle system so much. :rolleyes:

Makes the present system seem kind of stupid doesn't it?

The current system is closer to reality than your proposition. Historically, armies that have been outnumbered HAVE won battles! With your idea, this would never happen. Maybe a 1 in a million chance, but historically it has happened far more often than that.

Really, most of the complaints about the combat system is from results that only happen 3% of the time. They happen about as often as they would in real life.

Bamspeedy's example of having to spend 100+ units is exaggerated

Oh, I guess I did exaggerate a little bit, but not by much.

Here is a saved game where I ran a test (PTW 1.27). There is a rifleman who would be the near equivalent of 4 riflemen grouped together like you propose. It's A/D and HP (assuming all the units were veterans) has been multiplied by 4. There is a stack of 25 cavalry that will each attack the riflemen one at a time, simulating individual attacks, or 25 turns of trying to 'wear down' your army.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/Army_test.zip

When I played it, I took 9 hit points off the rifleman, so it would take a little less than 75 cavalry to kill your rifleman, if the RNG was giving average results for me on this test.

If you gave a couple/few extra A/D stats to your 'army', then riflemen would effectively become infantry. I think that would make them powerful enough.

And that is, what WILL and what HAS to happen to a single unit which dares to attack a group of units.

Ever seen the movie 'Braveheart'? The movie shows several creative ways to beat an army that has you outnumbered. Read up on some more history and you will find many examples of the underdog winning.
 
Additionally, I'v boosted up the bonus ressources (more food, more commerce, more everything).

That is why it worked pretty good, there was easily more population for the AI to lose. It may help the AI using default rules in the mid-late game, due to the AI irrigating when they don't need any more population (with default rules) instead of mining everything to maximize production like humans would do when they are maxed out in city size.

I am assuming that the AI uses the same logic mechanism with the population-consuming units as it does with Settlers and Workers (i.e. takes population loss into account and will compensate).

Wrong! The AI does not consider the population size or the production output of the city, when they build settlers. In nearly every single game you play there are cases where the AI has the 30 shields for the settler before they have the population points for the settler. The AI is given some guidelines to follow, which usually means they have to have X number of units before they build a settler. On high levels where they get free units at the start, they immediately build a settler, regardless of how many shields they are producing, so they may spend several turns still building the settler that is already 'complete', but they are waiting to hit size 3 before they actually get that settler. On lower levels where they start with no military units, they build a warrior or two before their first settler.
 
Ever seen the movie 'Braveheart'? The movie shows several creative ways to beat an army that has you outnumbered. Read up on some more history and you will find many examples of the underdog winning.
You refer to the scene in which Wallace is ******** the bride of the English heir, I guess? :eek:
No, to be honest, I would be very, very, very careful when proofing my thesis with Hollywood's historical lessons...

Anyway, of course there have been examples in history when outnumbered forces actually did beat a superior enemy force. This is a fact and noone would deny that.
But there have been reasons for that. Never the reason was that the successful army has had less soldiers!

Some examples from history:
Waterloo and Ligny.
At Ligny, the superior Prussian troops (80,000 Prussians vs. 64,000 French) entrenched in that little village. Since they were waiting for Wellington to show up with the British, they allowed Napoleon to deploy and to bring his artillery into action. The battle, starting at 3 p.m. (rather late for that time to start a battle) was finished in the evening, with the Prussians running away while leaving appr. 20,000 dead and wounded soldiers behind.
This in fact is an example for the minor army to win a fight.
But, 2 days later, on the 18th of June 1815, Napoleon encountered Wellington near the Belgium village of Waterloo. Both armies were of appr. the same size, with the French having more artillery (not surprising, since Napoleon had been artillery general in the revolutionary France)
At the late afternoon, Wellington was almost to retreat, since his lines had been thinned and weakened by the battle experienced French.
But then, unexpected to the French, Bluecher with his Prussians showed up again!
Now, the both armies (British and Prussian) worked like the blades of a scissor, with the French beginning to feel like the paper in between.
About the outcome of that battle we all know about. (Casualties: French - 35,000; Allied 18,000) So, the French had almost 2/3 of the casualties while the Allied had 2/3 of the troops (65,000 British, 60,000 Prussians vs. 64,000 French)

In CIV, the Prussians would have waited for Napoleon to finish the British and then to recover in the night and then to attack them at the next day.
In CIV, Europe now would be speaking French and the super power of the Earth would be France.

Next example:
On September, 1st, 1939 the German Reich invaded Poland. Since France and Great Britain had already guaranteed the Polish Borders to stay unchanged, the war was not unexpected to anybody in the world. In early 1939, the French general staff had made an analysis of the military potential of both sides. They had come to the conclusion, that a German-Polish war might easily last for two years with some good chances for the Polish to show up in the outskirts of Berlin.
But the war (as far as Poland was concerned) was over just 10 weeks later, with the Polish army completely destructed and the Germans having suffered some 10,000 casualties. This was the "Blitzkrieg".
Since the Polish and the attacking German forces were of appr. the same size, the quick German success was absolutely unexpected by the rest of the world.

Why?
Because the Germans had learned their lessons from WWI. They used air force and tanks in joint operations, by-passed Polish troops and seized strategical important targets.
Neither the German weapons nor the German 'Wehrmacht' itself were superior, but the German strategy how to use the different troops and means.
Especially the socalled 'superiority' of the German tanks was just a modern tale. In fact, until the introduction of the German 'Tiger' and 'Panther' tanks, German tanks were just comparable to the tanks of their opponents. This was especially true and got proofed later in the western war theatre.

Ok, enough with heroic tales from history...

What I wanted to state with this is the fact, that almost ever in history the tactics made the difference between enemy armies.
Superior tactics, often in close combination with weather conditions, useage of terrain and clever use of new weapons have been decisive for the outcome of a certain battle.
On the other hand, if both sides had to face the same conditions (that is, they use the same tactics, they have the same weapons, they are equally supplied and so on), then the number determined the outcome. Or, to quote Napoleon: 'The Lord will be with the stronger battalions'.

Read up on some more history and you will find many examples of the underdog winning.
:goodjob: Please feel free to do some reading of your own :rolleyes:

Nevertheless, I once again would like to explain that my idea is NOT about having 'fixed' armies in a new CIV.
I am just thinking about giving both sides the opportunity to make better use of their units.
For that, I recommend that seperate units will join on occasion, that is, if resting on the same tile AND being attacked. Or, if units on the same tile are to engage units on adjacent squares (the mentioned equivalence to the 'j'-command). Before and after, those units would be individual units again.
To avoid them becoming too strong, Yoshi's and my idea was to have an upper limit per tile.
By adopting this principle, most of the counter arguments would become obsolete, as far as I see it. For defensive purposes, any army could easily built just by stacking some units on the same tile. If the opponent then tries to attack, very well then. He should have some attackers as well.
To repeat even that, the problem of distributing damage points will occur. But this could easily been done, I guess.
I recommend to give the suffered damage points to the less experienced units in the very army. By that, the 'army' still will win the fight, but the individual units in it will face some damage. I guess, that is, what all of us would expect, isn't it?
And, last, this would speed up combat a little bit.
(Additionally, I really would like the idea of units being defeated to have the chance for retreating from the battle field). As the example Ligny from above shows, a defeat doesn't necessarily means the complete destruction of all units engaged in that fight)
Of course, this would make the armies as they are in CIV obsolete.
But, the presence of a GL could give his 'army' aka the collected units on his square advantages like a 'first shot-capability' or whatever.
 
Originally posted by Commander Bello
What I wanted to state with this is the fact, that almost ever in history the tactics made the difference between enemy armies.
Superior tactics, often in close combination with weather conditions, useage of terrain and clever use of new weapons have been decisive for the outcome of a certain battle.
On the other hand, if both sides had to face the same conditions (that is, they use the same tactics, they have the same weapons, they are equally supplied and so on), then the number determined the outcome. Or, to quote Napoleon: 'The Lord will be with the stronger battalions'.
So, you've established that superior generals or weather or surprise or whatever can decide a battle, and result in an unexpected outcome. For the ruler of the empire that has no control over those things, the battle outcome would seem ... random. In civ, where we play the ruler, and we don't know about these things, they are very well portrayed by using randomness to decide the outcome.

You see the inferior unit win due to random factors, but those on the battlefield know it was due to excellent use of terrain, perfect weather conditions and a lucky shot that wounded the enemy general. Making the armies invulnerable vs inferior enemy units take away all this.
 
Yes, you are right.
If we see ourselves as the leader of the state, then we as players have not much to do with the outcome of a certain battle.
But, most players (and that is, why Civilisation is that successful) are not just a leader, being far away from the life of their virtual following.
Aside from the governments which are to be chosen, CIV in principle is a game of absolute dictatorship, with US being the dictators. WE players decide, where our explorers go to, where cities are built, where ships are sailing.
Otherwise, we would have game options to tell the 'governor': build a city on a suitable spot of land somewhere in the northern plains and make it large. Then we would lean back and wait for tax revenues to drop into our treasure chest....
Is this, how most of us play the game? I don't believe so....
The attraction of the game is that we have ABSOLUTE power!
For that, WE are the commanding generals in each and every battle. At least many players even would prefer to have the chance to switch to a detailled battle screen, in which they could manouvre their units back and forth and by that determine, which side will win the battle...
The fact is, that many people think that randomness is way too high.
Another example: nearly nobody would accept in Chess the pawn to win againt Bishop or Queen, if attacked (I know, he will win, if he gets the chance to attack by himself). People like the idea that the beat the enemy due to their superior own strategy, not due to the 'kindness' of the RNG.
Please, don't misunderstand me. Some random definetely gives spice to the gameplay.
And in fact, the discussion was less about the random outcome of a game, but about the probability of inferior troops to win a battle against an army. And for this, even the historic examples are rather seldem, compared to the total number of battles being fought.
If, by strategy, luck, divine inspiration or whatever, your troops are in advantage, then you really would like them to win, wouldn't you?
And of course, if by unfair means of the AI, bad luck in the results of the RNG or whatever, your troops are inferiour to the enemy, you still would like them to win... But would this be 'realistic', if it happened to often?
The by far most battles in history have been won by the superior army.... superior just because of their sheer number AND / OR because of superior weapons (most other potential reasons do not play a role in CIV, since their are no weather effects, no interruption of supply chains [I will comment to this in another posting] and so on...)
For that, in the scenarios we are talking about here in this thread, anticipation of the outcome of battles is a must for most players, I guess.
 
Your last response makes very much sense Commander Bello, so I'll let it stand uncommented, except for one part:
Originally posted by Commander Bello
The fact is, that many people think that randomness is way too high.
Another example: nearly nobody would accept in Chess the pawn to win againt Bishop or Queen, if attacked (I know, he will win, if he gets the chance to attack by himself). People like the idea that the beat the enemy due to their superior own strategy, not due to the 'kindness' of the RNG.
I guess this is the reason we disagree. I love board games, but I'm absolutely bored by chess - because there's no randomness in it. Backgammon is much more interesting since there is random elements in it - although I do prefer more complicated and strategic board games than backgammon.

Anyway, I seldom feel that I beat the enemy due to luck, but rather due to my superior strategy. Sometimes I'm lucky, but a good player knows not to depend on luck most of the time, and he knows how to cover up for bad luck as well. And he also knows when he needs to depend on luck and how to maximize his chances. This is IMHO much more interesting strategy and skills than the pure analythical strategies and skills needed when randomness is factored out.
I acknowledge that this is a matter of taste though, and can easily understand that some players ask for less randomness.

What I do not accept though, is that we should change the game just because someone new to CIV3 is upset after having lost 4 spearmen on the attack against one defending spearman. I'm not saying (or thinking) that you belong to this group, but many of the cries for an improved RNG comes from sources of that kind.
 
Again, you are right in stating that different tastes make for different opinions and that there is no need to struggle about the individual taste.
Your last paragraph on the other hand gave me the idea, that (if the adoption of what I - and as far as I understand it, Yoshi as well - are recommending would be built into the next version of CIV) an option to choose between the 'standard' combat rules as they are today, and the 'changed' combat rules would be fine.
This could be done like we are chosing to use 'Regicide' or not nowadays.
So, with each comment here, new ideas come up..
Now we only need the Atari/Firaxis-guys to realize them :-)
 
Concerning Bamspeedy's test: by creating a 'super unit' that is the equivilant to 4 units, he effectively proved (assuming his averages are close) that a combat-multiplying Army is too strong, when taken literally as multiplying the A/D of the loaded units. I have used such 'super units' in my Civ2 sceanrios and they give a real punch to the AI. But that was in scenarios (i.e. WW2, Napoleon, Rome, ect.), where part of the purpose is to defeat the enemy super units and then conquer the enemy's territory.
In the core game, I can see these Armies as being an exploit for the human player or making the game too difficult (for most) if the AI is very aggressive. I tried adding super units into the Civ2 core game and got two results: a) if made too cheap, the AI builds nothing but Armies; b) if made too expensive, the human player can focus on making a few and making a surprise attack on the AI civ thus capturing all its cities before it can react. Then again Civ3's AI isn't as stupid as Civ2's (when it comes to unit strategy at least). Haven't tried the experiment with Civ3 but rather just tried messing with the Army unit. The problem is that Armies at present do not effectively represent the force of large, organized groups (i.e. Army combat is like a tag-team ring match). Increasing the number of units that can be loaded into the Army doesn't change things much because a single unit can still do a Sid-load of damage before being destroyed (due to the '1:1 until redlined' system).
I proposed a way of making the units in the combat-modifying Army less invincible by giving the loaded units varying degrees of damage (Commander Bello also mentioed something along those lines). This would weaken Armies a bit but they would still require a large number of units to be destroyed and you would still have the problem of them being able to heal if not weakened to the point where it begins losing units whereas the enemy loses many units. I can't think of any other way to limit combat-modifiying Armies. Considering that, all I can say is that if this is proportional to everything else in the game: if you don't put in the time to build Armies then you risk suffering massive casualties. This seems fair enough as nobody will be prevented from building Armies so regardless of how powerful they are, they can always be countered by other Armies. And if your Army loses, you can always just finish off the enemy Army with your single units.
Another thing that has not been mentioned thus far is the effect of bombardment on Armies. A downside to Armies can be that ALL the units in them receive varying damage from bombardment (like collatoral damage in SMAC). Since it's bombardment, the Artillery are not lost when attacking. The reason why this does not happen to units in a stack is that, as I stated earlier, they are technically not in a group. This should be sufficient to 'limit' the invincibility of Armies.

A few words on Random Comabat and the historical examples:

As far as I have read, almost every instance in which a smaller force has defeated a larger one has been due to factors other than luck. Reasons are usually superior soldiers (better unit type or more experience), terrain advantages (attacking from Hills/terrian gives defence bonus), and other things that Civ3 does not take into account.
If GLs gave Army bonuses and units could flank I would add that as the equivilant of better tactics.
These aspects should not be randomized. a high degree of randomness means that regardless of how good your strategy, you may lose it all because of a random outcome (i.e. your Generals may be good or bad, there is no way of knowing --hense the GL experience factor I mentioned).
As I've said before, random combat should only determine who wins and who loses between two identical units of equal defence/attack on terrain that gives no defense/attack bonus. That is, both are redlined but one loses in the end (randomizer only activates at the end --in Civ2 terms, I would say that only the last health point of the unit is randomized; as far as I know, Civ3 doesn't seem to use health points, only HPs divided into red/yellow/green).
You shouldn't assume that randomness covers every aspect of combat. Randomness should only deterimine who wins and who loses. If there is a stronger unit, he wins 90% but will always lose health proportional to the A/D of the weaker unit. the reason why I say 90% is to take into aco**** those rare flukes that happen in life. Identical units always redline and have a 50/50 chance of winning. Randomness should only be to add a little bit of seasoning to combat. That's it. If this were the case, Armies in Civ3, as they are now, would be more effective...but still flawed.

To use the Chess example, due to its mathematical nature, a perfect game will end in a draw. The idea behind chess --and this is why it is popular as a 'game of battle'-- is that one of the players will make a mistake and the other will be smart enough to exploit it. In CIV terms, the randomness only accounts for that 'mistake' (i.e. think of it as perfect game where one of the equally good players only makes a mistake at the very end).
If you're taking bad luck into account, that's more a question of your weaker unit running into a stronger one and having nowhere to run.
 
As I've said before, random combat should only determine who wins and who loses between two identical units of equal defence/attack on terrain that gives no defense/attack bonus.

So an archer will ALWAYS beat a warrior? A swordsmen will ALWAYS beat a spearmen? All you need is to be the first to iron working, or the first to hook up iron and the game is over. Where is the fun in saying "oh, there is 5 enemy spearman there, so all I need is 5 swordsmen to beat them without a challenge"? Why even bother showing the animation of the battle when you already know beforehand what the result will be.

That is, both are redlined but one loses in the end

So you say everytime equally matched forces have faced off, the side that won only has had a handful of soldiers survive?

You refer to the scene in which Wallace is ******** the bride of the English heir

And what does that little fabrication have to do with smaller armies winning? I know they make some things inaccurate to enchance the storyline, but the fact still remains that historically smaller armies HAVE won battles (which you acknowledged is true).

My test proved that the original idea of multiplying the A/D and HP by the # of units is too powerful. And that is what I felt was THE major thing wrong with it. Tone down the power of it and I'll accept your idea.

I still have not heard any comments about my solution. If you give the units in the 'army' a few more stats onto the A/D, I feel that would be a good enough reason to encourage people to group their units. If your riflemen were now effectively infantry, you would win many more battles, but not make them 'invincible'.

To use the Chess example

Am I the only one who thinks chess isn't a very good example? In Chess, the attacker always wins. Sure, sometimes you lose the battle but you win the war (gambits, etc.). We aren't talking about the war, but the individual battles.
 
I still have not heard any comments about my solution. If you give the units in the 'army' a few more stats onto the A/D, I feel that would be a good enough reason to encourage people to group their units. If your riflemen were now effectively infantry, you would win many more battles, but not make them 'invincible'.
That simply depends on whether the battle with an army involved will be calculated internally as a one to one fight of the individual units, or whether the army will be handled as an virtual 'super unit' for that battle. Short example:
1 warrior vs 1 warrior (A/D = 1/1)
Chances for the defender are 50%
5 warriors vs 1 warrior
0,5 *0,5 * 0,5 *0,5 *0,5 = 0,03125 => 3, 125% for the defender (and yet, no bonus applied for the combined army attack - even one attack point more would drop his chances almost below 0...)
Hmmm.. chances could be a little bit better for the defender, since there is a high probability for him to get a promotion to become veteran or even elite....
I guess, this really would have to be calculated via Excel...
And then, you will have to take fast units into account... And the effects of damage points applied to the defender during the course of the battle. Too late now to do that right now (not to mention, that I'm not that good in statistics :crazyeye: )
 
yoshi's wish for non-random combat where the better unit always win is certainly very far from my taste, and I doubt yoshi has considered all implications.

The first side getting iron would probably win the game, since other players would not be able to match the attack of 3 with any defenders. The exception would of course be Greece and Carthage with their defense 3 (+ at least 10% forbeing defender) units which would be absolutely invincible before knights, whith the exception of facing the Persian Immortals.

So if I play Greece and don't face Carthage or Persia, I will have an attacker (swordman) that win every time on attack, combined with a defender (hoplite) that win every time on defense.

What a game that would be :rolleyes:
 
So an archer will ALWAYS beat a warrior? A swordsmen will ALWAYS beat a spearmen? All you need is to be the first to iron working, or the first to hook up iron and the game is over. Where is the fun in saying "oh, there is 5 enemy spearman there, so all I need is 5 swordsmen to beat them without a challenge"? Why even bother showing the animation of the battle when you already know beforehand what the result will be.
Initially I would have said yes, a stronger unit should ALWAYS win vs a weaker unit. But in light of the tech factor you mentioned, a higher degree of randomization would be only fair. My point was that a very strong unit should not be severly damaged, let alone destroyed by a weak unit. The idea is that if you can only build weak units then you're going to need a greater number than the more advanced enemy units in order to to beat them --if the differences in A/D are not too big then you may get an occasional 'lucky' single weak unit.

So you say everytime equally matched forces have faced off, the side that won only has had a handful of soldiers survive?
If they were identical in every respect, yes. Historically, each time two equally powerful armies have faced off, the victor comes out of it with just enough soldiers to finish of the wounded enemy (if they're merciful). Just take your Braveheart example: the result of the initial battle (was it the Battle of Stirling --my Scottish history is rusty at best) is that even the superior English forces get just as mashed up as the inferior (in dress at least) Scots. War has usually been a lose-lose situation --at least where soldiers were concerned. It makes sense that without variable factors in the equasion, a fight just means that one guy hits the ground before the other. This is considered a win. Besides, in Civ3 isn't it bad enough that the victor gains experience within the same turn so that the supposedly worn out units is able to face the next enemy unit with just as much vigor?

...but the fact still remains that historically smaller armies HAVE won battles...
I'll use the Braveheart example again. In Civ3 terms the Scots win because the have a 'Clansman' UU that has a better Defence than the English Infantry, with a little bit of randomness ('luck') thrown into the mix. If you were to have English Infantry facing a smaller group of English Infantry, (assuming this unit is the Civ3 standard inf. unit) then the result would be different --they would probably lose.
If Civ3 as it is were to be applied to Braveheart then the inferior Scottish units (Warriors?) might win against the superior English Medieval Infantry because Mel Gibson is there to save the day but then again maybe he isn't and the Warriors get creamed by the Med. Inf. In other words, why the hell should some Warriors defeat Medieval Infantry? That is way too much luck that even William Wallace wouldn't bet on. 'Clansman' UUs would reproduce the effect of the newly bolstered Scots. But this would mean that Scottish would ALWAYS have an advantage regardless of circumstances. A William Wallace GL unit that appears when things get bad that gives the Warriors in his Army an A/D bonus would effectively reproduce the Breaveheart 'effect.' Very little of this has to do with luck. The only random factor is whether or not the Wallace GL appears or not. If he doesn't, the Scotts remain subjects of the English (although they remained so even with Wallace). This is a very simplistic view of the historical facts but it sticks with the Civ3 format.

Sure, sometimes you lose the battle but you win the war...
The reason why the Chess example is VERY appropriate to Civ3 combat is because until the random factor is thrown in, the result is mathimatical: the first to attack, between two identical units (this is Civ3 I'm talking about) is the one that wins. BUT if you add in the random factor (the 'mistake' in Chess), then the odds go from certain to variable. The key is not to make it so random as to imply that you may have a great player or a really bad player but rather that both are equal only one makes a last minute mistake and loses. In Civ3 terms, that translates into randomness only once the unit is in the 'red' (we assume that since both players are good, one of them won't screw up at the outset). Chess is a perfect example.

That simply depends on whether the battle with an army involved will be calculated internally as a one to one fight of the individual units, or whether the army will be handled as an virtual 'super unit' for that battle.
It's the case of 1:1 combat in present Civ3 Armies: each loaded unit receives 50% A/D bonus. If you were to apply this to combat modifying Armies, the same would apply, the only difference is that all the units attack simultaneously.
Where movementis concerned, as things are loading faster units into your Army does nothing except that it prevents single equally fast units attacking or being attacked by the Army from retreating. This is connceted to what I mentioned earlier concerning giving all units the ability to Retreat.

...I doubt yoshi has considered all implications.
I addressed the problem of too little randomness in my response to Bamspeedy.
 
yeah in Civ II this almost never happened.

It DID happen rarely, but it was rarely not common.
 
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