Longshot Combat

A tile representing a city/town you can just image represents the outside of the city in addition to the city itself and maybe not all the units are actually 'IN' the city/town.
I was thinking more in terms of gameplay: limiting units per city forces a player to fight out in the open --it just makes it more fun. Just assume that the area is not tactically apropriate fo defense --not to be taken too literally but rather is just meant to represent the various limitations invloved in defensive strategy. In other words, it just means that you defend around the area rather than focusing cmpletely on cities. The point is one of making gameplay more fun and forceing the player to think more strategically (i.e. can't just resort to the typical tactic I mentioned above.

If one civ invades another, it will bypass small cities (that have no special resources) and head for the biggest cities. Since the enemy can't just pile all its units into cities (something that presently turns invasions into a question of boring sieges), the invader will be sure to enounter a high number of enemy units along the way. Once the ivader defeats the enemy units and takes the biggest cities, he will have his smaller forces finish off the smaller cities in the wake. ALternatively, taking small cities at the outset and gradually making its way to the capital ensures that the invading Army won't be flanked.

Everyone will do exactly the same thing.
On the contrary. Having limitations on units per city means that players will have a good number of units in the field (usually in bases when at peace) and will have to deply them creatively in times of war instead of just relying on the safety of cities.

It's not that city limitations are essential but this definitely has potential. At least an option in the Editor would be nice.

The combat-multiplying Armies are of more interest as they deal with 'Longshot combat' as well as beef up combat strategy.
 
On the contrary. Having limitations on units per city means that players will have a good number of units in the field (usually in bases when at peace) and will have to deply them creatively in times of war instead of just relying on the safety of cities.

I see a problem with this on higher levels. I've played games where the AI has had over 10 units on every tile (while at peace!), and when I finally find an open tile and make my beachlanding there were a couple tiles that had over 100 units on it when they charged at my units. If you limit the number of units on any particular tile then beach landings and other situations where you must deal with an ungodly AI SOD just won't happen. If I can make a successful beachlanding and take a city, then I know I only have 10 units per turn (or whatever the limit is) to deal with because they can't send too many units onto the same tile (especially the slow units that use up their turn just getting into my territory). Or this would make beachlanding totally impossible to begin with if their territory is entirely railroaded (or even just roaded).

Let's say you have a tech lead over me and send 10 cavalry at me. Now let's say I have only pikemen. Your 10 cavalry will do pretty good against my 10 pikemen. But what if I have a major production advantage over you and can produce 50 pikemen. Oh, oh, I can only put 10 pikeman up against your cavalry. So you'll obliterate them, progress forward and move in re-inforcements to face my next 10 pikemen.

At least an option in the Editor would be nice.

Of course I would have no problem with that. But I can't imagine what the editor would look like if they gave us every single option that people have ever wanted. I just don't see the demand for this like I do for things like locked alliances and other things that are in there, or will be in there in Conquests.
 
Originally posted by socralynnek


BTW Commander Bello: I always knew that you Pfälzer were much more aggressive than your peaceful, smart neighbors from Saarland ;-)

You know, this means war! :ar15: :help:

:egypt: :D

P.S: Just as info for the ones not so familiar with the German states - the Saarland is our most western state, next to France and Luxembourg, while Rheinland-Pfalz (a major region in there is called the Pfalz - inhabitants then 'Pfälzer') is the beautiful state where you will visit the Rhine valley with the Loreley and all the romantic castles at the Rhine and at the Mosel (most probably on your way to Munich and the 'Oktoberfest' :beer: )
:)
 
I don't know, I actually have to agree with yoshi on this (did I actually say that? :)).

Having played a bunch of Korsun Pocket lately (a very good, fairly realistic operational level wargame of the Eastern Front in WW2) while waiting for Conquests to come out I think tile limits might work. But it would have to be all tiles. No stacks-o-doom anywhere. It would also need a total revamp of the combat system.

In KP, there is a 4 unit limit in any space. It works very well. There are major differences in how combat play out though. Most combats end with a couple of damaged units and no kills. It is all about forcing retreats (the defender is the one who retreats in KP). Multiple stacks can attack one space at the same time to increase their odds of success (in KP a 3:1 A/D ratio is about the lowest you should consider, 8:1 or better is really needed).

Other things that make this game great are an intuitive supply system (troops with no gas and bullets die fast) and a mobility based ZOC system.

While I like this system a lot, I don't think Civ3 could be easily warped into it. It would change the entire flavor of the game. Some hybrid system that combines some wargame flavor for combat with the civ system would make a great game, IMHO.

http://www.korsunpocket.com

Oh yeah, for shallow people like myself, I really like the graphic style.
 
@Bamspeedy:

I guess, you are comparing apples with peaches sometimes.

4 cavalry should not have an attack value of 24. That is simply too powerful.
Why not? At the time when you will have cavalry, chances are good that your opponent will have riflemen already. So, your army of 4 cavalries will meet easily 4 riflemen, making the odds 24 vs 24. If your opponent is on the same tech level, then he will try to withstand by using his musketmen, so you will have an advantage by 24 against 16. Add defensive bonuses for entrenchment, fortifications bonuses and so on, and the army of 4 cavalries no longer looks THAT good, does it?
Since the costs for musketmen are just 3/4 of the cavalry, it's likely that the defender might have some more of them, than you have cavalries, thus making up the higher attack value of your troops.
Well, if a city can only hold a certain amount of units, my fast units can strike that city and know exactly how many units I will have to beat (1 unit in a size 1 city, 3 in a size 3 city, etc.) The small cities will be hopeless to defend even if you know I'm coming because my fast units can strike the city before your counter-attack. I'll just raze the cities so you couldn't recapture them anyways. When you lose cities, you lose money, unit support, have increased war weariness, etc. Eventually you wouldn't have the means to support any semblance of an army.
War would just be a raze-fest as the cities would be useless to try and defend.
Warrior rushes in the early game would be even easier, since if the city just built a settler (and dropped to size 1), it will only have 1 defender.
First of all, how many small cities you think you might conquer at the first turn? I mean, you state that you will take that many small cities that it will have an immediate economic consequence for the defender. Seems a little bit unrealistic for me....
Secondly, warrior rushes are quite unlikely - especially with the 'limitation / army concept' in place - due to their limited speed in enemy territory! If we assume that the enemy city has a range of 2 tiles to / from the border, than it will take you 3 turns to attack it. Under the assumption that roads will have been built that means enough time for the defender to bring in reinforcements.
Of course, these reinforcements could not be put into a city of 1. On the other hand it seems to be unlikely that one builds settlers in a city already close to your borders. Where to go then with the settler?

At least I haven't observed the AI very often to built settlers in border towns on regent or monarch level.
But if we assume that this might happen often enough to potentially have an impact on the game, than it could be egalized by changing the rules in that way that towns could always hold at least 5 units, regardless of the size of the town.
By this, a town would always have the chance to be held against one attacking army.
Of course, now you can say that you will never have the chance to put an effective attack against your enemy. On the other hand these 5 units have to be built first.... And they would have to be built for every town at the border.
Especially in the early game this is most unlikely to happen. And later in the game, both sides should have had enough time to put some effort in their military strength.

But while thinking about the consequences of armies in towns and all that stuff, I realized that there should be an upper limit of units per town which is not that much different from the upper limit of units per tile since otherwise we would just put the weaknesses of the one to one combat system at the next higher level.
If we compare knights with pikemen than an attacking army of 5 knights would have a total attack value of 20 against a total defense value of 30 of 10 pikemen. Since for armies it would be a one to one fight as well, even 2 armies of knights would have poor chances against 1 army of pikemen as long as this army would be entrenched in a town.
Maybe, the upper limit of units at open terrain should be 7 to egalize this... Then the first army of knights would still have bad chances for winning the battles, but it should be capable of putting some real damage on the defenders... So the next army would have a good chance to win, but still would have to expect some heavy losses.
Does anyone have a good combat simulator at hand to calculate the chances? (I guess, at least the Atari/Firaxis-guys should have - so we will have to rely on them first to take over this concept and secondly to balance then in a good way :crazyeye: )

Ok, I already know that now somebody will yell: Then I will never have the chance to defend my cities! But then it will be necessary to act as Yoshi already stated - some troops will have to be entrenched at the border side of the town...
 
Originally posted by warpstorm

In KP, there is a 4 unit limit in any space. It works very well. There are major differences in how combat play out though. Most combats end with a couple of damaged units and no kills. It is all about forcing retreats (the defender is the one who retreats in KP). Multiple stacks can attack one space at the same time to increase their odds of success (in KP a 3:1 A/D ratio is about the lowest you should consider, 8:1 or better is really needed).

Other things that make this game great are an intuitive supply system (troops with no gas and bullets die fast) and a mobility based ZOC system.

Indeed, that would even be better. I never understood, why units always would have to die, if defeated.
So, the concept of the fast units with the ability to retreat from a battle already is a first step into that direction.
By the way, in my games I give all fast units a ZOC ability (although that just costs on HP of one unit at the moment - another unlogical setting, since you can move stacks of units, but then have to fight one vs one....
 

Once again you are going under the assumption that there would always be the 'perfect' situation of 4 units vs. 4 units.

If we take yoshi's 'Napolean' example, then single units won't even stand a chance to even INJURE the attacking army! One cavalry with attack of 6 against say 4 riflemen with 24 defense (and not also considering the combined HPs or however that will be calculated). 6 attack vs. 24 defense I think the attacker would hardly ever be able to even knock off a hit point. I can accept the fact that the 1 unit looses (and he should), but the extremes in A/D values make it hard to do any damage at all.

I think it would be good enough if the 'grouped' units got 1 or 2 extra attack/defense points. You get a bonus for grouping your units together, but not an ungodly, despicable, unbalancing, game-breaking bonus.

The current Civ 3's army works like this. Of course single units are going to lose to the army, but they can at least injure it, so with enough single units 'wearing down the army', you can destroy the army like in the Napolean example.
 
Sorry, I got trigger happy and hit enter before my first post was completed, hopefully you saw the extended thoughts instead of just the 1 sentence I wrote the first time.

At the time when you will have cavalry, chances are good that your opponent will have riflemen already.

If someone bee-lines to military tradition they can have cavalry for half of an era before riflemen show their ugly faces.

First of all, how many small cities you think you might conquer at the first turn? I mean, you state that you will take that many small cities that it will have an immediate economic consequence for the defender. Seems a little bit unrealistic for me....

There are definitely some immediate economic consequences for the defender. It's called death.
Ever do a warrior rush at 3000 BC and destroy an AI civ by capturing his only city? Use 2 warriors and against a non-scientific AI (so they don't start with BW and build spearmen). It only works half the time, because half the time it fails is because he had enough time to get 2 defenders in the city instead of just 1.

Other economic consequences are capturing cities that have their only luxury. If they are in Republic/democracy then razing cities (regardless of size) adds tremendously to war weariness (if you raze 5 or 6 little cities then the AI democracy will be guaranteed to be overthrown). And the AI very rarely uses the luxury slider so they will be hiring clowns all over the place and so their economy will go kaplut.

Let's say you have 1 spearman and 1 warrior. You leave the spearman in the city while the warrior goes west. The warrior goes west again on the next turn. Then I bring 1 or 2 units in from the east. You are now screwed. If your warrior goes back east 2 tiles (to just reach the city before I can attack it), the warrior can't go into the city because your pop 1 city is limited to 1 unit and you don't have roads yet to move the warrior around the city or anything like that. What are you going to do?, send the spearman out of the city????
Your idea of allowing a 'minimum' of say 5 units in a city makes much more sense then limiting a town to just 1 unit.

With horsemen attacking cities with less than 100 culture in them, as soon as you see me coming (unless you had scouts posted around outside your borders), you have just 1 turn to react. If the city has no culture and you don't have a road leading to where my troops are just outside your territory then I can strike you before you hit me unless you also had fast units and strategically placed.

In KP, there is a 4 unit limit in any space.

And what about peninsulas,coastal cities, isthmuses, small islands, etc?

You know how many units the cities can support on the higher levels (like Deity and Sid), but OH OH, they would have nowhere to put them!!, because the land tiles are limited.

At least I haven't observed the AI very often to built settlers in border towns on regent or monarch level.

Besides settlers, they can drop in population from when they build workers, pop rushing (most common cause early in the game) and a few other (more rare) situations. An AI city has 1 spearmen, they feel threatened because you just declared war on them and they only have 1 defender, so they poprush another spearman. But uh, oh now the city is back to size 1 and only 1 spearman can stay in the city! Like I said before your suggestion that each city can be allowed a minimum of say 5 units solves many of these problems. 1 unit in a city is just a rediculous limitation.

some troops will have to be entrenched at the border side of the town...

And this adds 'great strategic value'? Instead of people having 20 units in a city, they will have 5 in the city, and 5 on 3 different tiles right next to the city. I don't see the great 'strategy' in this.
 
The system in KP works very well for what it does (modeling real world WW2 battles). It might not work unchanged for Sid level games where the AI essentially doesn't have to pay upkeep. Keeping supply lines and movement paths open are a core part the game.
 
I see a problem with this on higher levels. I've played games where the AI has had over 10 units on every tile (while at peace!), and when I finally find an open tile and make my beachlanding there were a couple tiles that had over 100 units on it when they charged at my units.
The AI has a nasty tendancy to move units about the map ad eternum --particularly in it's own territory. It did this in Civ1 and 2 as well. I assume that designers see this as a means of getting the AI to secure its territory and keep the map updated --although if it DOES actually cheat (i.e. can 'see' everything), then this seems redundant. It would be far better if the AI built Fortresses all over it territory (particlualrly near areas bordering hostile neighbours) and garrisoned units there. It would also be nice if it sent EXPLORERS to reveal the map rather than having AI Cavalry units runing all over the map.
Just for the record, the reason why actual armed forces don't ususally move about a lot and reside in bases is becuase of the costs involved --Civ3 does't have this limitiation. Perhaps including a range limitation with supplies thus requiring a re-supply at a cost, increasing maintenance while outside friendly territory and substantialy reducing these factors for Explorer/Scout/ect. units would be a way to deal with this problem --assuming designers would want to.

The only thing I can say about the problem you've outlined is that placing a limit on cities would increase this problem but not so much as to make it significantely more problematic than it already is.
Besides, that's what Marines are for --it's just that there aren't any 'Amphibious' units in the other Ages.
That brings up another issue: you'd think not having the 'amphibious' ability in other ages would unbalance the game in circumstances like those you mentioned and the considering problem of 'island' (1 tile) cities.
Just to give a historical example, when the Romans invaded the Britania, they frequently found that the Brittons were waiting for them on the shore. This meant that Legionaries had to get into the water and wade to the shore amidst a a flurry of arrows and other projectiles only to have to fight hand-to-hand while still knee-deep! Almost sound like the Normandy invasions! This proves that amphibious landing is possible even from primative ships, thus it applies to any age. Considering this, each civ should have access to at least one 'amphibious' unit. In other words, all Foot units should have the amphibious flag. Conquests tweaked this flag by doubling the units' attack when attacking from ships. If all Foot units were to be given the Amphibious' flag then it should actually be divided in two: an 'Amphibious' flag for general Foot units and another 'Double Attack for Amphibious' flag for Marines which can attack from ships AND have their attack strenght doubled thus simulating their advantage over just any Foot unit --so as not to make Marines any less useful.

But what if I have a major production advantage over you and can produce 50 pikemen.
The idea is that you would take the extra 40 Pikemen and place them in strategic locations around the city (usually in strategically placed Fortresses). The units in the city are only a last stand. You would probably do this anyway since you don't want to have the attacker freely pillaging your tile improvements --the city limitation would be primarily to keep it that way. Persoanlly I dislike having to face a city packed with defenders EVERY time. In the end, combat simply becomes a sucession of sieges, which is boring and repetative. In other words, I'd prefer to face Cavalry in the open using my wits than just witing them out or attack the defenders in ways other than just the cities they occupy. Granted, as I said above the AI has its units running about all the time but they're usually not organized enough to pose much resistance let alone a serious threat --more of an annyance really.

I just don't see the demand for this like I do for things like locked alliances and other things that are in there, or will be in there in Conquests.
Its only fair that players crave 'big' features like new diplomacy options, but considering that all this would really require is one new field in the Editor like "__: Unit/Citizen Ratio per City" and a few minor changes to the AI, it wouldn't take much just to add it in for the hard-core minority. Whether to apply it to the core-game or not is debatable.

Speaking of the Editor, I was thinking of another addition along the same lines: another field that limits the maximum number of Units to the total number of Citizens a civ has.

Example: "__: Total Unit/Citizen Ratio" (-1 = 1 Unit per 2 Citizens)

I always found it absurd that a civ with plenty of production but a low population can build more units than it has people. In fact armed forces usually only account for a small percentage of a country's population and even if you were assume that mercenaries and immigrants are joining the armed forces (I don't know why you would), it still would be a minority. Obviously different government forms would set a maximum number but then, they already do that only now it would be a percentage of population instead of a fixed number. This should actually get its own thread. A 1:1 unit/citizen ratio should be acceptable to most players because although it would still be warped (e.g. US military personelle would equal in excess of 200 million --assuming 1 citizen equals the same proportion of people as 1 unit), it would prevent small countries that just happen to have a lot of shields (and enough commerce) to build armies many times larger than the population itself.

A possible addition to the unit/citizen ratio would be a way of reproducing the effect of population within units by adding a 'Citizens' caption in the Editor's 'Units' window. If this were the case, Battleships would require more Citizens, let's say 4, than Infantry which would only need 1.
Another way of limiting numbers (in the short term) of course is to just set units to consume population (something only Worker and Settler units do now), and increase the rate at which populations grow in order to compensate. I tried this by changing the rules but the result was that the population would grow back and allow me to build more units because there was no real population limit on units.

There is clearly a problem with the non-essential units (for defense) like Scouts, as well as with the loss of population from Workers and Settlers but if it proves to be a problem, they could always be made exempt for the 'ratio' (i.e. setting their respective 'Citizens' values to zero).

I don't know, I actually have to agree with yoshi on this (did I actually say that? ).
So miracles DO happen.

But it would have to be all tiles. No stacks-o-doom anywhere.
But if it were ALL tiles you would encounter the problems I brought up in my reply to Commander Bello (see 'terrain limitations' on page 3).
The reason why you wouldn't encounter those problems by limiting cities (although I encountered a few other minor ones) is because there is no movement invloved. That is, units don't require room for multiple groups of attackers to converge on a defender. Another reason for allowing 'stacks-o-doom' on non-city tiles is because this is meant to represent a higher degree of mobility thus large, organized groups get a certain advantage vs defenders. Another reason is more a theoretical one, and that is where you literally run out of space --unlikely that would ever happen though.

Most combats end with a couple of damaged units and no kills. It is all about forcing retreats (the defender is the one who retreats in KP).
Never played KP. Sounds good. Giving ALL units the possibility of retreating has been a dream of mine for quite some time. The question of what to do with faster units can be solved by simply allowing faster units to take a 'free shot' which may or may not destroy the slower retreating unit --this would make it well worth while to include at least one faster unit into an Army. Units of equal speed could retreat like 'units vs units of 1' (I can't believe they hard-coded that) do now. Historically, most engagements have tended to be about weakeneing the enemy, not necessarily destroying him in one shot, so this makes sense from that point of view.

Multiple stacks can attack one space at the same time to increase their odds of success...
Essentially simultaneous attack, right? This is the idea behind combat-multiplying Armies only applying it to a single square.

Other things that make this game great are an intuitive supply system (troops with no gas and bullets die fast) and a mobility based ZOC system.
I actually opened a thread specifically about Supply/Fuel/Ammo (see: :[url]http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61673&highlight=Supply[/URL] ).
Units get three new fields in the Editor's 'Units' window:

1. 'Supply' field that limits the number of turns a unit can remain outside friendly territory. Half-way point would be indicated by something like a flashing icon next to the unit. If the unit is not in friendly territory before supply reaches 0, the unit starts to lose health. Once health drops to nothing, the unit disbands (I included the health factor so as to provide a 'safety net' to units that can't get back in time). The unit must re-supply in a friendly city (just moving towards an Allied city does this --like the 'repairing' feature in Civ2).
I was thinking of adding a cost in gold to re-supply a unit but I got the problem: why does it cost the same for a Battleship to re-supply as it does Infantry? But considering that units in Civ3 don't even have individual maintenance costs (i.e. Battaleship costs the gold to maintain as does Infantry), this slight oversight is petty. I had some trouble with units in Fortresses because if they can re-supply there, it means that units defending in Fortresses are ata major advanatage vs units outside Fortresses and if you simply slow the loss of Supply for units in Fortresses, it means they can only stay there for so long. So I settled with having Fortresses connected to cities by Road act like cities themseleves (i.e. they resupply units) but if the Road is blocked/pillaged (thus disconnecting the Fortress from the city), units in the Fortress start 'using up' their Supplies but only at half the rate of units outside the Fortress.

I'm really for this one because, if applied to the core game, it would prevent units from circumnavigating the map in the early game which distorts things too much by making global conflict a reality while civs are still in the process of developing the Wheel (having China send over a bunch of units to France in the Ancient Age causes Civ3 to border on fantasy in terms of strategic realism).

2. 'Fuel' field that limits the number of moves a unit has before having to re-fuel in a city. Remaining Fuel would be indicated though vertical bar to the right of the units hitpoints. Half-way point would be indicated by yellow just like health. 'Running dry' is the same as that of 'Supply' but in this case, the unit's movement drops to 1 and disbands after x number of turns. Someone once mentioned that motorized units should just stop when they run out and be capturable by the enemy --the penalty for going too far away. When the enemy captures the unit, it regains full Fuel. If the enemy can't get it back then the same thing happens. If no one recaptures it after x number of turns, the unit automatically disbands. That last part is a bit complicated but it's still less so than including 'Fuel Trucks' that can be used to re-fuel units in the field. But whatever, you get the point. The re-fueling of units is simple in comparison: units refuel at cities connected to the fuel resource.
This of course implies another field, 'Fuel Type' which would determine which Strategic Resource must be connected by Road to the city in order for the selected unit to refuel there (i.e. Tanks require Oil, Ironclads require Coal, Nuclear Subs require Uranium --clearly nuclear subs could circumnavigate the map before they ever had to refuel so Uranium wouldn't be as 'strategic').
There is also the problem of losing control of fuel resources. It would be too easy if you could just take away the enemy's access to resources thus preventing him from using his motorized units, so I figured the easiest solution if to simply add a new 'Storage' improvement that 'stores' resources. Having this improvement in a city previously connected to whatever resource(s) means that if the city is cut off from the resource, it can still build and refuel for x number of turns (even though it no longer has access to the required resources). If cities with this improvement are captured (and the improvement isn't destroyed) the attacker is able to use this 'storage' to his advantage (think gas-starved German Panzer units taking over Allied fuel depots).
(Perhaps adding a required Improvement like units requiring Oil can only refuel if at leasst one of the owner's cities has a 'Refinery.' You could then use Precision Bomb all the enemy's Refineries thus cutting off his fuel supply that way.)

3. 'Ammunition' field that limits the number of times a unit can engage in combat or bombard before having to return to a city to 'reload.' Naturally, there should be a limit on how much ammo you can take with you (simply assuming that there are supply lines too big of an assumption), but there are far more problems associated with this than there are with Supply or Fuel. Firstly and most obviously, city defenders would have an unlimited supply of ammo (that would be like soldiers defending a city so as a result they never run out of bullets) which is highly unbalancing. I suppose you could assume that they have the infrastructure in place to keep making more ammo, but historically, part of the reasoning behind sieges is that the enemy will eventually have to run out. The only solution I can see is to have the Factory improvement as a requirement to reload. That way only cities with the proper infrastructure can hold out indefinitely. Of course, players would exploit this and invest heavily in building a Factory in each city...what the hell, let them. But what about pre-industrail ranged units? I suppose you could always have Barracks as the requirement instead...(?) As for Fortresses and Air Bases, I suppose you could just connect them via Road to a city with Barracks. If they get cut off, nuts.
 
In addition:

The effect of Armies on this is that units loaded into Armies would recive a Supply/Fuel/Ammo bonus (supply lines) thus extending the range and effectiveness of units, making Armies highly strategic particularly where conquest is concerned.

I think the 'Ammo' field could use some work but there you have it, all that for just 4 new 'Units' fields and a few tweaks to the interface...the AI is another story.

These would make cities/fortresses/airbases a requirement in conquest and colonialism as you would need to build strategic centers for re-supply that would allow your units to push on. In other words, no more armies walking across the globe to fight you.

Though I should say that my thread wasn't popular and is probably on the second or third page of the 'C3C Requests' forum by now. Hard to believe, considering how obvious these things should be...but what can I say, the mob rules.

While I like this system a lot, I don't think Civ3 could be easily warped into it. It would change the entire flavor of the game.
I think I have just proved that it could be incoperated into Civ3. If it changes the flavor well, I was getting tired of this one anyhow. Can't you just picture playing a Civ3 version of the Red Front scenario with all this stuff in it...sweet.


Aside: inhospitable climate would be a way of limiting units as well (i.e. certain harch terrain would reduce health of units without 'Immune' flag).
Talking about the Eastern Front, if you wanted to reproduce the harshness of Russian winters, you could give this ability to all terrain so Foot units would have to return to a City or connected Fortress/Air Base or freeze (be destroyed). What would be cool is if you could have terrain/rules/graphics be replaced automatically wothout having to do it amnually using just Events...oops, I forgot there AREN'T any Events in Civ3... ;)

P.S. Sorry for the long post and the double post.
 
@Bamspeedy:

First, I already agreed to the concept of allowing '5' units for defense, regardless of the town size.
Once again you are going under the assumption that there would always be the 'perfect' situation of 4 units vs. 4 units.
No, I don't! All I tried was to make clear that the combined attack value of 4 cavalries is not that much as it looks at the first glance, since there are good chances that they will meet a similar sized defensive army (under the assumption of the 'upper limit concept').
If we take yoshi's 'Napolean' example, then single units won't even stand a chance to even INJURE the attacking army! One cavalry with attack of 6 against say 4 riflemen with 24 defense (and not also considering the combined HPs or however that will be calculated). 6 attack vs. 24 defense I think the attacker would hardly ever be able to even knock off a hit point. I can accept the fact that the 1 unit looses (and he should), but the extremes in A/D values make it hard to do any damage at all.
Yeah, that is exactly what would be more 'realistic'. If I would imagine what would happen to the poor riders of an unwary cavalry battalion who will run into the joint fire of 4 infantry (riflemen) battalions.... This would be a massacre!
And this adds 'great strategic value'? Instead of people having 20 units in a city, they will have 5 in the city, and 5 on 3 different tiles right next to the city. I don't see the great 'strategy' in this.
With your argument you proof that Chess is a boring game without any strategic depth, just because the pawns will always start on the second or seventh line.....
Then you mention to take an AI's only city in 3000BC. Or to take the city with it's only supply of luxury.
Seems that we do not discuss about the same game, since my experiences tell me about these things not to happen that often. In my games I most of the time have to do it the hard way... that is, to conquer this infamous 'size 1 - town' while AI has some 18+ towns in reserve, and it's luxuries most of the time are some 25 tiles deep in it's territory.
 
@Yoshi:

I am really thinking about adding that pop-consuming feature to my games...
The advantage would be that spreading in the early years would be significantly slowed down and additionally even the most productive nations would not be able to wage endless wars, as it may easily be done 'nowadays'. I have had games in which I was at war with #2 -6 simultaneously, some of them being overseas, and still was able to make a fine spaceship win... Once you have set up your republic / democracy accordingly AND having at least 6 luxuries, it will be nearly impossible to loose under the current game rules.
On the other hand, then to explore the terrain would be almost impossible at the beginning. Of course, this effect could be minimized by allowing to built scouts at all nations (with the assumption of scout units to represent very small groups - they would have 0/0/2 or whatever values - , so that it would be logical to produce them at low costs with no pop consumption). But then, you will weaken the advantages of expansionist nations too much, since scouts are 'their' units in the beginning.

But, the more I think about it, the more it becomes clear that units will have to consume population....
 
Commander Bello, the problem with having units consume population is that the AI just doesn't get it. The AI is programmed to crank out units (especially at the upper difficulty levels as they are cheap for them and have very little upkeep cost). This will decimate their cities and make for an easy game for the human player.
 
If I would imagine what would happen to the poor riders of an unwary cavalry battalion who will run into the joint fire of 4 infantry (riflemen) battalions.... This would be a massacre!
That's exactly the point I've been trying to get accross.
There are 2 arguements against this:
First, it would make 1:1 combat irrelevant.
Second, the AI may not know enough to build its own Armies (this is something it has trouble doing now).
To the first, I'll say if that were the case...GOOD RIDDANCE! But that would not be the case because there would usually only be a limited number of Armies in play at one time --especially if the Civ3's Army/City limitation still applies. This means that single units would still play a similar role only usually as garrison rather than front line attackers, that's what Armies are for. 1:1 combat is for border skirmishes, guerilla warfare, ect. Armies are for conquest.
To the second all I can say is that if the AI can't hadle Armies then that's the designers' fault, not ours.

So, the 4 Cavalry should definitely be massacered by the Army. Strength in numbers, for God's sake! You're Army will get a scratch but that's it. As for an Army being invincible if the enemy has no Armies, enough single units will gradually wear down the Army, it;s just that they will be destroyed as they attack whereas the units in the Army will die together. If I have an Army I don't what to be held back by petty units, just because they can redline the units in my Army before they are destroyed. If you have alot of units then 1 unit (that isn't a super unit) should be wiped out --lluck or no luck. Bad luck is running into the bloody Army in the first place (once you've already made that mistake, it all over for your). The only reason why this would be unbalancing is if you have a bad player --so they lose, that's where the GAME comes into it. I'm tired of combat being a matter of percentages where you just hope that enough of your units are lucky enough to win against enough of the enemy's units. Armies unclutter the map so you don't have units runing all over the place --if they do, they risk running into an Army.
These changes make the game harder and more strategic for reasons already outlined. Why would people prefer disorganized unit combat all over the place over organized groups? If you put the effort into putting together a large Army why should you have all your units redline after combat the first fewsingle units you enounter because the combat system uses a 1:1 system?
Aside from changing unit strategy (for the better IMO), what's the problem with this?

I'm going to clarify exactly what the logic behind Armies is:

Let's say you have a fight. It's you against 10 other guys (an Army). Assume you are equal to 1 of them. As Civ3 is now, each of the 10 guys would attack you individually. If you beat the 1 guy attacking you, he will wthdraw just before you finish him off and the next guy in line will take his place. This will continue until you 'redline' them all, then the first guy you beat will attack you again and you will finish him this time and do the same to all of them. This means that if you're really lucky, you can potentially beat the whole group.

So you see the absurdity of this, take military eaxmple. It would be the equivilant of a general telling his troops to attack one by one and the defenders defend one by one. Now this is fine for Armies because you would get the same mathematical result if all the units attacked/defended simultaneaously (in a line, for instance). But what if it's just 1 soldeir against ten? Are they going to run at him 1 by 1? Even more absurdly, what if they are have guns? Are they going to shoot at the 1 soldier 1 at a time?No, of course not. They fire a volly and turn the smart-ass punk into swiss cheese and he'll be lucky to get a shot off before the bullets hit him. The same goes for none-ranged units. 10 Spearmen will attack 1 and spear him to death --they won't charge him in single file but rather will surround him and then move in for the kill. Whether he can fend them all off at the same time depends on his defensive capabilities. If he attacks, they will be eagerly awaiting his arrival with a line of spears. He'll manage to do some damage, but nevertheless it's suicide.

In other words, 10:1 instead of 1:1.

The only exception is a unit with the Stealth Attack ability --but this does not apply to defense.

Units in an Army are organized into a group(s). Individual units that happen to be on the same square (stack) only means that they are in the same general area, not that they're in a group. The group (Army) deals with each unit individually.

The point is that Army combat should not be anything like a tag-team one-on-one ring match.

Is there something unintelligable about these concepts? Is there something about the physics of strength in numbers that I missed?

This does not unbalance the game, it just makes it more challenging. And that's what games are supposed to be. If people don't like having to deal with massive and deadly Armies, then all I can say is welcome to human civilization.


Just for the record, there are some of us who wouldn't mind watching two Generals duke it out and whoever wins the fight wins the war (thus saving the lives of the poor suckers who "joined the army 'cause the pay's good"), but I don't think most high-ranking military personelle would go for the idea. Really too bad though.
 
BTW, I noticed there's not a single reply to that long 'supply/fuel/ammo' post I wrote. (Sigh) I don't know why I bother.
 
Yoshi, for the 'supply/fuel/ammo', I'd probably simplify it to just 'supply'. Either a unit has what it needs for a few turns of action or it doesn't. If it doesn't, it is a lot slower and weaker. Is this less detailed than what you proposed? Is this less realistic? Yes, but I think it is probably more playable. Most of the 'monster wargames' don't even go into the all of the individual aspects of supply as it makes the game more unwieldy without much gain for the player. I do love games where supply is important, but not if there is a lot of busy work to make it happen (see Korsun Pocket for one that does this very well).
 
doesnt it have something about supply in rise of nations?

i think that might be a good idea but how would you do that?
 
Yeah, that is exactly what would be more 'realistic'. If I would imagine what would happen to the poor riders of an unwary cavalry battalion who will run into the joint fire of 4 infantry (riflemen) battalions.... This would be a massacre!

Do you think the 1 cavalry would go down without a fight? If they are going down, they would take some with them. Under your system, then an A/D difference from 24 to 6 means that the cavalry will most often lose without ANY damage to your attacking units (meaning you lost 0 troops). What happened, did my units surrender and throw down their weapons and then you executed them? Shame on you. Not only do you have 4x the A/D, but 4x the hit points.

Encouraging people to group units I'll admit isn't a bad idea, but you are trying to take it too far. Like I said, give the army 1-3 extra A/D points (for each unit in that army) and you will get a much more favorable result, but not make your armies invincible. Using just 1 unit with an A/D of 6 vs 4 of your units with an A/D value of 24, means I would need probably 100+ units to 'wear your army down'.

Even this system wouldn't stop the crybabies. "The AI's 10 warriors (A/D of 10.10) beat my tank!" "How could guys with wooden clubs beat a tank?!"

I guess, you are comparing apples with peaches sometimes.

But when all is said and done, apples and peaches are both fruit.

The idea is that you would take the extra 40 Pikemen and place them in strategic locations around the city (usually in strategically placed Fortresses). The units in the city are only a last stand. You would probably do this anyway since you don't want to have the attacker freely pillaging your tile improvements --the city limitation would be primarily to keep it that way.

And what good would those 40 pikemen do outside the city, if the enemy can just walk around them? If your defenders are parked outside your city, why should I even bother attacking them? They won't strike me because defensive units are usually slaughtered if you try to use them for atttacking. I would just simply need to hit 1 army (if that is even necessary) and then I'll be right next to your city and capture your city the next turn while your pikemen are standing outside the city twiddling their thumbs, and eating popcorn while watching me capture your city.
 
In my games I most of the time have to do it the hard way... that is, to conquer this infamous 'size 1 - town' while AI has some 18+ towns in reserve, and it's luxuries most of the time are some 25 tiles deep in it's territory.

It could very well be map size and whether we play pangea or island maps. On the lower levels (monarch and below for example), large/huge pangea maps, I build a few cities and then start building barracks and horsemen and start attacking their cities while they are still trying to expand (and there is still quite a bit of room between my civ and there's, so I have plenty of time to react if I see them start sending a SOD my way).
 
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