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Lookin' for an idea to implement Dark Age

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Creation & Customization' started by Karl der Grosse, Oct 21, 2014.

  1. Plotinus

    Plotinus Philosopher Super Moderator

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    Sure, I was being a bit harsh on ancient philosophy there. But the point I was trying to make was that it really wasn't "knowledge" of the kind the OP seemed to be thinking of. It wasn't scientific. The loss of it (if it had been lost) wouldn't have led to a stagnation of scientific or social progress. It was all about how many Henads emanate from the One, and that kind of thing. People often talk as if the closure of the philosophical schools, and their replacement with Christian theological institutions, was the replacement of enlightened free thought with religious obfuscation. My point was that the philosophical schools and the Christian institutions were really pretty much the same, except that one lot were pagan and the other were Christian. It's a mistake to see the philosophical and literary institutions of antiquity as somehow rational and scientific while those of the "Dark Ages" were not. To the extent that the Roman Empire promoted learning, it did so not by providing libraries and universities but by giving a certain class of people the leisure and security to pursue their own private studies. Learning declined with the fall of Rome - to the extent that it did - not because the Library of Alexandria got ransacked but because there was no longer such a large class of leisured aristocrats with nothing better to do than read Cicero to each other. And they were, in any case, effectively replaced by a growing class of monks who had nothing better to do than to make copies of Cassian and Gregory the Great. Plus ça change and so on.
     
  2. Erebras

    Erebras Prince

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    This is the perfect rationale for the Scientist (or Priest http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=516557&highlight=priest) specialist citizen.
     
  3. Karl der Grosse

    Karl der Grosse Chieftain

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    Interesting discussion. This lead me to question what is the meaning of Dark Ages is.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Ages_%28historiography%29

    From this one can infer that the Dark Ages were a socio-economic and cultural depression. The logical extension would be a dearth of Scientist citizens in CivIII. Furthermore, that would entail the notion that such citizens would be dependent in some form on the benefits that commerce conveys in addition to a civilization being able to afford such citizens not actively engaged in 'working', i.e., producing food.
     
  4. Erebras

    Erebras Prince

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    We are on the same sheet of music on this. Specialists, by definition, are the non-productive -- not to say, non-useful -- members of society. And a civilization in the midst of a dark age would not have the wherewithal to support entertainers, tax collectors, scientists, policemen, or civic engineers. They're too busy eking out a living growing food or turning big rocks into little rocks.

    Dark Age civilizations don't get trade bonuses, don't produce more than two food or shields, and suffer high rates of corruption and waste. A specialist here and there can stave off the dire effects on a local level, but overall the nation is not getting ahead.
     
  5. ZergMazter

    ZergMazter Prince

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    So what do you have so far to make a 'dark age'? I've been very interested in doing this. In my mod its quite annoying but having 31 nations unbalances the game no matter how big the map is if you are playing on the world map.

    Europeans get a nasty trade going on and really annoy me. I wanna enjoy the full game, but they make us all skip ages because they are getting tech too fast and trading, but I dont wanna have to make techs non-tradeable.

    They could all have just 1 city but Europe as a whole works as a massive empire of trade. Basically I'm trying to go through a 'dark age', a 'great depression', and a 'great recession' to slow the game down a bit and also weed out the horrible civs only becoming advanced, because they got techs to trade. Eventually the bad civs should fall behind, and the game pace should slow down.
     
  6. Erebras

    Erebras Prince

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    A couple of thoughts on playing on a world map, which I take to mean an Earth map.

    Firstly, the civilizations -- quite logically, but not fun for balanced gameplay -- tend to cluster around near each other. It's no wonder the Europeans full of seafaring civilizations begin to outstrip everyone else. I may suggest balancing it out a bit. Here is one suggestion not really intended for a vanilla Earth Civ III game, but the research is rather sound:
    Spoiler :
    MISR (Egypt)
    BRITAIN (United Kingdom)
    EAST AMERICA (New England, Southern US, Ontario, Quebec )
    WEST AMERICA (includes Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Alberta, and British Columbia)
    (southeast) EUROPA (The Balkans)
    AUSTRALIA (Oceania)
    FRANCE
    DEUTSCHLAND (Germany)
    NEDERLAND (Netherlands)
    NORDEN (Scandinavia)
    ESPANA (Spain)
    MEXICO
    BRASIL
    ARGENTINA
    ELLADA (Greece)
    ITALIA
    ROSSIYA (Russia)
    MASHRIQ (Levant)
    IRAQ
    ARABIYAH (Arabs)
    HUABEI (Northern China, Mongolia)
    HUANAN (Southern China, Indochina)
    BHARATA (India)
    HANGUK (Korea)
    NIPPON (Japan)
    TURKIYE (Turkey, Anatolia)
    ITYOPPYA (Ethiopia)
    MZANSI (South Africa)
    NIGERIA
    IRAN
    NUSANTARA (Indonesia, coastal Indochina)

    Remember CivI, if you ever had the fortune of playing it, that the Aztecs on the Earth map would routinely invade your medieval Egyptian or Zulu nation with tanks they researched in private and isolation, having no one else on their continent to check their expansion.

    Secondly, I considered the idea of partially-tradeable techs, in which the precursors to a given advanced technology were tradeable, but the actual tech was not. Hear me out. A good example would be the prerequisites for The Republic, Theology or Democracy. The skills to lead up to this kind of society could be borrowed or taught to the citizens, but it would be up to the people themselves (the civilization, in game terms) to incorporate and adapt the ideas and make it their own. (Think Syncretism, for Theology, say.) Therefore you could trade all kinds of ideas, but there would still have to be some heavy lifting on the part of the scholars, polymaths, scientists, and think tanks.
    Spoiler :
    Syn·cre·tism
    /siNGkrəˌtizəm/
    noun
    The amalgamation or attempted amalgamation of different religions, cultures, or schools of thought.
     
  7. ZergMazter

    ZergMazter Prince

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    'Secondly, I considered the idea of partially-tradeable techs, in which the precursors to a given advanced technology were tradeable, but the actual tech was not. Hear me out. A good example would be the prerequisites for The Republic, Theology or Democracy. The skills to lead up to this kind of society could be borrowed or taught to the citizens, but it would be up to the people themselves (the civilization, in game terms) to incorporate and adapt the ideas and make it their own. (Think Syncretism, for Theology, say.) Therefore you could trade all kinds of ideas, but there would still have to be some heavy lifting on the part of the scholars, polymaths, scientists, and think tanks.'

    You know what I like it. I'm gonna do just that. I had done this with just one tech in the industrial age which would allow you to get the latest tier of Napoleonic style units, because I did not want it to be a freebie as the AI trades it all.

    I just did not even think about it, and it was all right under my nose. That should help slow down tech brokering and weed out the bad lazy civs.

    I'm still interested in a dark age, industrial great depression, and modern great recession though. It would make managing your resources so much more fun to get through the economic slow down, but on the other side the AI might completely collapse as they dont delete units I believe even if they need to.

    I can't wait to see if you make it work.
     

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