Military Gameplay - Doctrines instead of "Morale"

[Hinin]

Hello everyone,

I wanted to start some conversations about unit promotions and the military in general.

In this one, I'll start with "Morale" as a promotion, its impact and how it could be changed.

Current situation - "Fire and Forget" Morale

What is the "Morale" promotion currently. To me, it is mostly a bothersome and forgettable element of military gameplay. It is present in two specific ways :
- after researching "Iron Working", you build Heroic Epic in one city, and that city becomes your go-to military production city for the rest of the game for that meager +10% CS to units
- you just use the Order faith building to totally ignore the city limitation aspect, still for that meager +10% CS to units

This being the only army-wide kind of combat bonus outside of policy ones is, I think, kind of sad, especially when we know how impactful the evolution of military thinking and doctrines has been in history. I do think there should be more choices for the players to personalize how their armies behave in combat.

General Concept Idea - Doctrines

Doctrines would be different kind of "paths" that could be chosen for the military of the player. It could be divided between land, air and sea units, or not (we would have a lot leverage in term of potential complexity for the system). These doctrines would provide bonuses equivalent to what "Morale" does, but with more specialized elements and minor maluses thrown into the mix.
These doctrines could be upgraded at different moments of the game and available to all units instead of only ones from a specific city.

Examples of basic doctrines :
- Concentration : +5% CS per consecutive attacks against the same target ; -10% CS when defending against ranged attacks
- Autonomy : +15% CS when not adjacent to any other friendly unit
- Prudence : +15% CS when defending ; -5% CS bonus from flanking
- Aggression : +15% CS when attacking ; -5 max HP
- Mass : -15% CS ; +5 HP when healing (Doctrinal bonus reducing the Production cost of all Land units by 15%)
- Elite : +15% CS ; +10 max HP (Doctrinal malus augmenting the Production cost of all Units by 20%)

Idea n°1 - "Doctrine" Building chain

One way to put this concept into action in a simple way would be to make the Heroic Epic the start of a chain of military buildings dedicated to doctrines, unlocked throughout the game and allowing you to pick and choose elements. This approach would have the advantage of being easy to code (and so would be easier to maintain or modmod), but would lack interactivity. That said, this disadvantage could be ignored depending on what we really want (maximalist or minimalist approach).

National Wonder - Heroic Epic
Unlocked at Iron Working

60 Production cost / 12 Citizens required (cost increased by number of Cities in Empire)
Spawn a Great Writer when finished

+1 Culture
+10 % Military Supply from population in the City

1 GWWriting slot
Unlocks Doctrinal Buildings in the City

Here is an example of "Doctrinal Buildings" :
Doctrine - Concentration
Unlocked at Iron Working
Requires Heroic Epic in the City to be built ; cannot be built if any other "Doctrine" Building is present in the Empire
Cannot be captured

60 Production cost (cost increased by number of Cities in Empire)

All Land Units in the Empire gain the "Concentration" promotion (+5% CS per consecutive attacks against the same target ; -10% CS when defending against ranged attacks)

Idea n°2 - GGeneral-based Doctrines

Another way to implement the doctrine system could be to tie it to GGeneral, which would totally make sense thematically : how would Alexander the Great have realized his projects of conquest without the economic and doctrinal framework established by his father ? Same for Frederick the Great, or Kubilai Khan. Since GGenerals in Civ V are absolutely separated from politics, they could at least impact the military in a more profound way than just a combat aura, one Citadel and +1 Supply.

The system could work this way : when the first GGeneral is expended, the player chooses his doctrine, and each subsequent expended GGeneral would strengthen the Doctrine up to a certain point. The advantage of this doctrine, in addition to the thematic link, would be to provide a good way for warmongers to leverage their GGeneral points generation (or GAdmiral points for naval units) instead of making the system rely only on economic elements (science and production), but it would surely require a lot more work and would be less easy to manipulate or balance.

Bonus - Even Further Beyond

As you may have observed, there is only one layer of Doctrines in what I've proposed above. There is obviously the potential to add further layers of Doctrines (why not one or two more unlocked during different Eras), but I wanted to present to you the framework of the idea with some practical applications first.

There is also potential for unique Doctrines for specific Civilizations, Wonders or Policies obviously, but that would be much more difficult to assess without first testing a more basic system.

All that said, thank you for reading. Have a good day !

 

[ScarletArkyning]

I do agree. I tend to not even think about where I build my units, or even the heroic epic. This might add some more diversity between empires and add more layers to combat between empires. Do I call in my ally knowing his doctrine provides more offensive capability? Do I vassalise that guy for his useful doctrine that could aid my own? Should I attack him even though his doctrine is a direct counter to mine?

 

[Nightmare Dusk]

I do think more intricate promtions would be a nice improvement to the combat system. My one worry though is this will further increase the gap between a human and ai in combat

 

[trinket]

Sounds ingenious, both would definitely make games more dynamic without bloating the battlefield.

some worries:

• Won't that make the Heroic Epic kind of lackluster?
• Idea 2 will make Portugal OP, but I assume it's a given her and other GG-related uniques would be changed somewhat.
• Idea 1 will have added production costs, odds are already stacked in favor of hammer-heavy authority civs and putting combat bonuses behind even more hammers might widen that gap especially in early game.

 

[KlHannibal2]

Hello everyone,

I wanted to start some conversations about unit promotions and the military in general.

In this one, I'll start with "Morale" as a promotion, its impact and how it could be changed.

Current situation - "Fire and Forget" Morale

What is the "Morale" promotion currently. To me, it is mostly a bothersome and forgettable element of military gameplay. It is present in two specific ways :
- after researching "Iron Working", you build Heroic Epic in one city, and that city becomes your go-to military production city for the rest of the game for that meager +10% CS to units
- you just use the Order faith building to totally ignore the city limitation aspect, still for that meager +10% CS to units

This being the only army-wide kind of combat bonus outside of policy ones is, I think, kind of sad, especially when we know how impactful the evolution of military thinking and doctrines has been in history. I do think there should be more choices for the players to personalize how their armies behave in combat.

General Concept Idea - Doctrines

Doctrines would be different kind of "paths" that could be chosen for the military of the player. It could be divided between land, air and sea units, or not (we would have a lot leverage in term of potential complexity for the system). These doctrines would provide bonuses equivalent to what "Morale" does, but with more specialized elements and minor maluses thrown into the mix.
These doctrines could be upgraded at different moments of the game and available to all units instead of only ones from a specific city.

Examples of basic doctrines :
- Concentration : +5% CS per consecutive attacks against the same target ; -10% CS when defending against ranged attacks
- Autonomy : +15% CS when not adjacent to any other friendly unit
- Prudence : +15% CS when defending ; -5% CS bonus from flanking
- Aggression : +15% CS when attacking ; -5 max HP
- Mass : -15% CS ; +5 HP when healing (Doctrinal bonus reducing the Production cost of all Land units by 15%)
- Elite : +15% CS ; +10 max HP (Doctrinal malus augmenting the Production cost of all Units by 20%)

Idea n°1 - "Doctrine" Building chain

One way to put this concept into action in a simple way would be to make the Heroic Epic the start of a chain of military buildings dedicated to doctrines, unlocked throughout the game and allowing you to pick and choose elements. This approach would have the advantage of being easy to code (and so would be easier to maintain or modmod), but would lack interactivity. That said, this disadvantage could be ignored depending on what we really want (maximalist or minimalist approach).

National Wonder - Heroic Epic
Unlocked at Iron Working

60 Production cost / 12 Citizens required (cost increased by number of Cities in Empire)
Spawn a Great Writer when finished

+1 Culture
+10 % Military Supply from population in the City

1 GWWriting slot
Unlocks Doctrinal Buildings in the City

Here is an example of "Doctrinal Buildings" :
Doctrine - Concentration
Unlocked at Iron Working
Requires Heroic Epic in the City to be built ; cannot be built if any other "Doctrine" Building is present in the Empire
Cannot be captured

60 Production cost (cost increased by number of Cities in Empire)

All Land Units in the Empire gain the "Concentration" promotion (+5% CS per consecutive attacks against the same target ; -10% CS when defending against ranged attacks)

Idea n°2 - GGeneral-based Doctrines

Another way to implement the doctrine system could be to tie it to GGeneral, which would totally make sense thematically : how would Alexander the Great have realized his projects of conquest without the economic and doctrinal framework established by his father ? Same for Frederick the Great, or Kubilai Khan. Since GGenerals in Civ V are absolutely separated from politics, they could at least impact the military in a more profound way than just a combat aura, one Citadel and +1 Supply.

The system could work this way : when the first GGeneral is expended, the player chooses his doctrine, and each subsequent expended GGeneral would strengthen the Doctrine up to a certain point. The advantage of this doctrine, in addition to the thematic link, would be to provide a good way for warmongers to leverage their GGeneral points generation (or GAdmiral points for naval units) instead of making the system rely only on economic elements (science and production), but it would surely require a lot more work and would be less easy to manipulate or balance.

Bonus - Even Further Beyond

As you may have observed, there is only one layer of Doctrines in what I've proposed above. There is obviously the potential to add further layers of Doctrines (why not one or two more unlocked during different Eras), but I wanted to present to you the framework of the idea with some practical applications first.

There is also potential for unique Doctrines for specific Civilizations, Wonders or Policies obviously, but that would be much more difficult to assess without first testing a more basic system.

All that said, thank you for reading. Have a good day !

Great idea! Another way to implement it: add the doctrine choice to completing a national wonder. You can later rebuild the wonder to switch doctrine, but at a very high cost. It could even be like a world congress wonder that has to be built in ever city. It would simulate a complete army reform.

As for the bonuses that doctrines provide, I would go a different path. They should give bonuses that help in specific situations. Like defense (not unit defense, but fighting in friendly territory) or fighting in forest or amphibious warfare. It should be things that are useful in certain situations but not in others. There should be a big cost for changing doctrine, but it should be possible, and useful in some situations. Think of it like the policies in civ 4 that you could change. This would make for interedting choices.

Another idea for the cost of changing doctrine: all your units could are reduced to 20 hp and have to heal back up. To simulate the reduced readiness during an army reform.

 

[KlHannibal2]

There could also a demobilization doctrine, saving on upkeep but giving a combat penalty.

 

[BornDownUnder]

The reformation process could induce turns of resistance/partisans.

 

[Lumpyacidfish]

do these ideas actually get added?

 

[hokath]

The easiest way to unlock would be to use the event system to add a player event with whatever prereq.
It even has columns to grant free promotions.

 

[paul_soryu]

I thought the solution in Idea №1 to Heroic Epic one city problem was to give different cities the ability to give different Morale/Doctrines promotions to units, which sounds interesting: you could have different specialized groups of units to perform different tasks, and the ability to adopt new doctrine in a city would be given with tech progress or via some militaristic Policies. So, by the end of the game you could have 10 cities with 10 different Doctrines (given to past units too).

But it favors human players even more than the proposed empire-wide solution, and could end up too micro-managementy so players again won't bother with what to produce where.

I like Idea №2, but what about not strengthening, but simply changing a doctrine upon first GG birth and later upon GG expansion? And maybe give twice as much of a bonus to units adjacent to GG? I don't like that you could only choose a single doctrine for the entire game, it places the only meaningful choice at the start of the game and then it is a no-brainer to upgrade it with spare (obsolete with a modmod) GGs. I think adjusting it to the situation is more interesting, you could even use scouts and spies to observe what is the main unit type of an enemy's army, and choose your doctrine accordingly (many ranged units -> take ranged defence). If you don't want to change a doctrine, how about a +5% combat bonus (stacking for multiple GGs?) for 20 turns? Or double the bonus of current Doctrine for 15 turns? I think Autocracy's Tenet with a temporal CS boost is an interesting mechanic that constrains you in time and demands prior planing and preparations, but it is only present in the very late game.

So, ordered, Idea №3:
- Choose Doctrine upon first GG birth
- Change Doctrine upon GG expansion
OR Double the effect of current Doctrine for 20 turns (except for the first GG, he can not double)
- Double effect for a unit on the same tile as GG

The problem I can see is that warmongers would be choosing the bonus on the attack and then never changing it. Maybe make the debuff "-3/4/5 HP on heal", so that it incentivizes you for a quick agressive war, and if you fail and get into a war of attrition then it punishes you?

The other problem is that, if bonuses are too generic, doubling the effect might be almost always better than changing Doctrine, but this can be balanced by making Doctrines heavily specialized, so that often some bonuses would be almost useless in a given situation. I think temporal doubling of a bonus is an interesting idea.

 

[KungCheops]

do these ideas actually get added?

it may get proposed in a future congress I suppose

 

[ma_kuh]

In before everyone takes Elite just so they have fewer units to control.

I like the high level idea behind this approach. I'd want to be mindful of adding choices just for the sake of choices, but with maluses built-in I think that's a solid direction. I might offer some more specific abilities tied directly to unit classes, but the brainstorm you've presented is pretty good (I'd add supply and maintenance cost mods to the Mass/Elite doctrines if possible, as well).

I think the system would be stronger if it was global for your empire, rather than a per-city option. The reason being that choosing a doctrine should be a commitment, if you can just have an even split of two (or more!) options then it muddies the choice. (Or consider this: you'd build all of your Aggressive Archers from one city and your Prudent Spearmen from another; that's not a choice, that's just optimizations). I would think differently if it was tied to GGenerals though, if each one had a unique aura or something. But that's very Civ6, and without an interface to choose the GGeneral you get that seems lackluster.

Last idea I'll throw in here is I think having the bonus obsolete over time would be good. This way you still get opportunities to shift your doctrine based on new threats throughout the game, but you don't need to balance the promotion(s) around also having stacked them from previous eras. You can make sure each era's doctrinal choice is significant, without running away in power over the course of the game.

And I'll second the idea that the Events system is probably the one to use for this, as opposed to more buildings. At least if you're wanting it to be empire-wide (which I do).

 

[Chippy Smith]

Having a global doctrine decided on first Great General birth is cool. I think each subsequent Great General birth should give the player the choice to change doctrines, but not strengthen them. Using the event system for this seems natural, allows for the option of doctrines to change based on tech / policy / religion, and seems to support a "do nothing" option. Whether implemented through Great Generals or by a branch of buildings, I think allowing the player to "update" their doctrine is nice, especially if it isn't as simple as swapping one doctrine for a better one. I don't think it makes sense for a player to be stuck with one for eternity, but it also shouldn't be trivial to change. Neat idea.

 

[azum4roll]

it may get proposed in a future congress I suppose

Good luck getting the AI to work with yet another permanent choice.