Lord Koxinga and Taiwan

[goododa]

Recently I just finished a book on the history of Taiwan, so I would like to post a brief introduction of Lord Koxinga's Kingdom..

Koxinga was a European name for Kuo Hsing Yeh(pronounced guo-sing-ye). It basically means "Lord of the Imperial Surname".
His original name was Cheng Ch'eng-kung(pronounced zeng cheng-gong).

Lord Koxinga(1624 ~ 1662) was a Chinese general of the Ming Dynasty. After the Manchurians conquered the Ming Dynasty, he remained loyal to the Ming Dynasty. He led many campaigns against the Qing Dynasty, but he failed. Lord Koxinga decided to leave China for Formosa(Taiwan). Formosa at that time was colonized by the Dutch, and previously the Spanish. Lord Koxinga landed on Lounimeng, or Lu'ermen in southern Formosa. Finally, the Dutch were defeated and forced to surrender.

Lord Koxinga's contribution to Formosa was significant. He developed the agriculture, education, and religion greatly. He was probably the first Chinese ruler who recognized Formosa as a precious island. Unfortunately, after Lord Koxinga died in 1662, his kingdom was soon conquered by the Manchurians. Formosa, again, was forgotten by the Qing Dynasty until Liu Ming-chuan, the first governor of Formosa from the Qing Dynasty, was appointed in 1885.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Just want to add, Koxinga wasn't originally a general; he was the scion of a successful pirate family who operated along the South Chinese coast. The waku (i.e. Japanese 'dwarven') pirates, who actually numbered more Chinese within its ranks, were threatening the coastal areas of China during the remaining half of the Ming. It also resulted in the stupid Ming policy of relocating all coastal population and settlements inland, effectively giving up the seas (and China's future) to foreigners. Koxinga's father was the most powerful leader of this band of waku pirates, operating fr an island off the Fukien coast, with influence fr Japan to Vietnam.

However when Koxinga grew up, instead of following the family 'trade', he chose to help the Ming who were being invaded by the Manchus, originally helping to defend the Yangzi river valley. However he was driven out and escorted the Ming prince to safety. In the following decades, Koxinga repeatedly tried to return but failed. He also failed to coordinate his efforts with the Three Feudatories (betraying Ming generals who joined the Manchus) in the south-west when they rose against the Qing cos he distrusted them. Koxinga's greatest success was once when he managed to take Nanjing but eventually was forced to retreat.

Anyway, the Manchus gradually grew strong enough in the South to threaten his base off Fukien, so he relocated to Taiwan. And removed the European Dutch during the process.

 

[The Balrog]

And they lived happyli ever after..... TadAAAAA

 

[Waku]

Never heard of them :suicide:

 

[Headline]

Read modern history of Taiwan, or story of Chiang Kai-Shek

Hotter topic

:tank:

 

[tetley]

I think it's about time imperialistic Taiwan annexed mainland China into their empire. What do you think?

 

[jssst21]

I live in Taipei, though I am not Taiwanese, and I think you would be amazed by how few Taiwanese actually support splitting away from China (formally). During the last election the country ran about 50/50 on the issue. This makes it virtually impossible for any governement here to settle the issue or even approach it truly. Any decision, be it conciliatory or toward independence would have disastorus reprecussions for the government. Expect the status quo here for at least another generation.

 

[DBSD13]

I say let things go on as it is for another 20 - 50 years or so. By then either the Tawainese supports a peaceful unification or China's military suppasses Tawain n manage to threaten US's carriers n itz group enough to not have them around for the invasion.

In my personal opinion, Tawain is dying. Itz economy is in no shape to out spend China in military hardwares and itz factories are moving to mainland where itz got cheaper labour etc. If u look at Shanghai, there are around 300,000 or was it 3 million Tawainese living there. Pernemantly.

Basically, as China increases influences on Tawain, culturely speaking, the empire would "absorb" this little island one way or another.

Ha if they risk declaring independence, inorder to "save face" China would unleash itz 200- 300 missiles as well as naval blockade, commando invasions etc... If the 7th fleet is not in the way.

 

[Headline]

US has a lot of factories in mainland China.......I don't see Americans turn into Chinese??

Also, Taiwanese has tons of Temples and Libraries, and Universities. Also about more than 80% of people in Taiwan now do not support the reunification with the mainland, so cultural assimilation is unlikely.

How about war?

Unlikely, since China is now in a Cold War situation against United States.

The economy in Taiwan is weak now, but it will rebound as the US economy rebound. Taiwanese economy based on the export model, so it will heavily rely on the final consumers in the US.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

US has a lot of factories in mainland China.......I don't see Americans turn into Chinese??

But the Taiwanese are Chinese too, Hokkien mostly, to be more precise. Americans are not. Us Mandarin speakers have no problems communicating with them at all. Easier to assimilate.

And then there's the 1-2 million of Taiwanese are working/living in China right now. Assimilation has begun.

Also, Taiwanese has tons of Temples and Libraries, and Universities. Also about more than 80% of people in Taiwan now do not support the reunification with the mainland, so cultural assimilation is unlikely.

China has more and has them (some at least) for thousands of yrs. Also pretty ancient wonders like the Great Wall, Sun Zi's Academy, Grand Canal etc.

The economy in Taiwan is weak now, but it will rebound as the US economy rebound. Taiwanese economy based on the export model, so it will heavily rely on the final consumers in the US.

Even the Japanese fear the Chinese economy. Just today in the news, the Jap PM is signing their first Free Trade Agreement ever with Singapore (and soon with other SE Asian states). And all because China has unilaterally announced months ago that they're working on a free trade agreement with the entire SE Asian region. Copycats... The countries here had tried to get to something like this with Japan for years now w/o any results.

The Taiwanese will be wise not to underestimate the challenge fr the Chinese economy.

 

[DBSD13]

Perfectly said Knight-Dragon! Just a personally note, I ve been watching the German succession game from the beginning to the end. Great game.

Headline, China is NOT in a cold war situation with USA. 1st of all, USA is still the world's biggest arms exporter and ve the world's biggest military budget.

This is China's official order of funding. Agriculture, Industry, Science and finally Military. Therefore we do not spend 50% of our economy on arms as the Soviet at one point did.

What our strategy towards USA is simple. Since we cannot out spend USA, we go for the sole easiest threat. ICBM. Work on that and US would not be so bossy when our missiles can reach Washington. Afterall it takes 1 nuke to take out 1 city. No need for all the 5000 nukes USA still ve. Unless we decide to launch a spaceship to AC.


Where did u get the 80% non-unifcation part? Coz jssst21's is accurate as he IS in Tawain and the survey was conducted by a local univsity.

Tawain's economy... Lets say I know better than you. I'm in Hong Kong, a definitely patriot to... watever country I owe my allegiance to .
Tawain's import outweights itz export. Especially when sum of itz exports include moving factories to other countries, not only China.


Rit i thik i ve said too much already

 

[Headline]

the communist China views "imperialist" United States as a threat since the founding of PRC. Although it is not a communist nation anymore, the PRC government still view United States as a threat. The Yogoslavia embassey bombing and Taiwanese problem further escalate the distrust the PRC government have toward United States. Like you said, Chinese government is building up their ICBM reserves, and United States have to deal with that. However, there is no detente anymore, so US has to cut the spending on ICBMs, and focus on the project of SDI.

Cold War is just getting warmer, but it is still cold.

About the 80% non-unifcation part, it is an estimate. jssst21's 50% each side is not really a good one. In actuality, about 25% of Taiwanese support reunification. 50% supports "As the sames as it is". 25% support independence. The actual rates for both independence and reunification are lower in reality. The issue of reunification has less influence in the presidential election. I don't thin jssst21's poll is from an local university, it's just an estimation if we r to ignore the 50%"as it is" part.

If u know Taiwan, then u should know that Taiwanese is following the export mode of Japanese. Check out the semiconductor industry now. However, labor is an important element. Taiwanese want cheaper labors, so they cannot stay in their island, so instead, they have factories in southeast asia, or China to make for them. The route actually goes like this

Southeast Asia, China (manual labor)-->Taiwan (factories management)-->US, Japan (commercial)-->US Consumers (Final Buyer)

This will cost unempolyment, which is why there is a huge anti demostration against the opening policy toward China. It however cannot stop the world trend.

Taiwanese does import a lot unlike Japan. Taiwanese Cable TV, for example, has channels, or broadcasts from US, Japan, HK, Korea and their own. The total sum up to about 100 channels. The agrecultural market too is very competitive in Taiwan. One can almost buy any type of fruit and veges in Taiwan. The price is very cheap, since Taiwanese has too much Agrecultural production, in another word, tons wastes.

I have said too much

 

[Headline]

Originally posted by Knight-Dragon


And then there's the 1-2 million of Taiwanese are working/living in China right now. Assimilation has begun.

China has more and has them (some at least) for thousands of yrs. Also pretty ancient wonders like the Great Wall, Sun Zi's Academy, Grand Canal etc.

Even the Japanese fear the Chinese economy. Just today in the news, the Jap PM is signing their first Free Trade Agreement ever with Singapore (and soon with other SE Asian states). And all because China has unilaterally announced months ago that they're working on a free trade agreement with the entire SE Asian region. Copycats... The countries here had tried to get to something like this with Japan for years now w/o any results.

The Taiwanese will be wise not to underestimate the challenge fr the Chinese economy.

True. It is easier to do. However, will Taiwanese who is living better now, and has democracy wish to be assimilated into a nation that has lower GDP and tons problems (e.g. populations)? probably not now, but will if China is stronger.

I have an question about if China has a lot of temples. From my knowlege, the cultural revolution destroyed most of them. I wish some one from mainland China (not HK (former British Coloney) can answer my question by walking around their neighborhood to see if there are temples or not.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Originally posted by Headline
True. It is easier to do. However, will Taiwanese who is living better now, and has democracy wish to be assimilated into a nation that has lower GDP and tons problems (e.g. populations)? probably not now, but will if China is stronger.

I figure some day, China will also go democratic. But probably not richer as China is really a vast country, so it's hard to enrich everybody within a short period of time. As the mass of well-off and educated ppl increased in China, there'll be a movement towards more democracy or at least, more accountability in the govt.

As for the whether the Taiwanese are willing to return to such a fold, my bet is probably marginally yes; at least to join up with the richer parts of China like HK, Guangdong, the Yangzi delta, the Beijing-Tianjin corridor etc.

I have an question about if China has a lot of temples. From my knowlege, the cultural revolution destroyed most of them. I wish some one from mainland China (not HK (former British Coloney) can answer my question by walking around their neighborhood to see if there are temples or not.

Temples can be rebuilt. I know that at least one famous one, the Shaolin temple in Henan, still survives today.

So long as there're Chinese people, there'll be Chinese culture. After all, Chinese culture had survived for thousands of yrs, at times under worse (and foreign) regimes (the Mongols in particular, during the 13th, 14th centuries).

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Originally posted by DBSD13
Perfectly said Knight-Dragon! Just a personally note, I ve been watching the German succession game from the beginning to the end. Great game.

Thanks (the game comment)! We got a great consistent committed team for that one. Will be finishing up soon.... :crazyeyes

Headline, China is NOT in a cold war situation with USA. 1st of all, USA is still the world's biggest arms exporter and ve the world's biggest military budget.

Most of the Chinese military budget is to upgrade its equipment to reasonable Western standards and towards payrises for its troops (cos of the economic takeoff, std of living is skyrocketing). The PLA generals got a rude shock during the Gulf War when the US vaporized Iraq.

Where did u get the 80% non-unifcation part? Coz jssst21's is accurate as he IS in Tawain and the survey was conducted by a local univsity.

Most Taiwanese have no particular preference IMHO. The independence tendency is overrated. Most just want to get on with their lives and are more worried about the economy and its implications.

Taiwanese domestic politics are quite exciting. Fistfights in the National Assembly, videotaped sex implicit scenes involving political figures in the media (recent very hot news), egg-throwing at Lee Tenghui for betraying KMT, the standard namecalling etc etc.

 

[Headline]

Temples can be rebuilt. I know that at least one famous one, the Shaolin temple in Henan, still survives today.

Still maybe not. U know newly builded temple has less cultural points

And some maybe just not the same as the original culture. Let me take a guess Since Fu-Lan Gong is banned The temple will have no wheels symbols.

Anywayz, the porcelain made in Tang Dynasty won't be the same as a Tang imitated version made in Song Dynasty. Non-Chinese culture outside will influence the orignial culture. CPR's limitation on certain religion will also influence those newly builded temples. Can those who live now remember the culture that is 50 years ago? Probably only old people. Ask younger Chinese right now, i would bet that they have no religion at all. Like Shaolin Soccer (a movie).

 

[DBSD13]

lol Shouldn't films be part of culture? As well as Ku Fu.

Yes temples, hey in Civ, i'm building new temples in the 18th cc! I thik its more about "Wonders" whether itz a small or big wonder. Forbidden Palace, Summer Palace, Great Wall, Sun Tzu, Confusism, 1st Emperor's grave, Refurished temples, the different palaces from the different dynasties, regional attractions, the 3 gorge, yellow river n temples all along it etc. Are wonders. lol

Remember, History is "culture" too. Our existence as a united nation and surviving for so long is sumthing all Chinese are proud about. Even Tawainese. We are after all a 5000 years old civilization, and the only one still kicking!.

Pityful how you do not understand the concept of Chinese history. Like dragon said, there were rises n falls but after all these time, we are still Chinese and now we have another chance to come back.

Look at the culture revolution. It went across the border to Hong Kong. Look at the Tinamen Square incident, all Chinese were watched their tv or radio, regardless where they are and what nationality.

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I might be living in Hong Kong but I've been to quite alot of places in China and my father just happens to be a semi-conductor factory owner. Serious. Those who moved off Tawain are surviving. Those who stayed are planning to move.

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China is heading for the British 19th cc "Evolution" type, Liberalism, Anti-radical, Anti-dis-establishment, non-contencious social reforms etc.

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Cold War u say?
Estimated Strategic Nuclear Warheads 1985
USA
ICBM-borne warheads 2118. SLBM-borne warheads 5536. Aircraft-borne warheads 2520.
Total 10174

How do u expect China to catch up? We are not sucidist u kow. Aside from that, we dun ve Aircraft-carriers, AGEIS cruisers, Stealth bombers, fighters, mech infantry. In Civ language, we just got into modern age while US is building a colony ship to AC.

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Imperialism? China is not the only one who thought so.

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I realize I'm not dealing wif an average American.

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Let me put it in English. We are not going to spend loads of money like USA or late-USSR. We are not capable, and we do NOT want a cold war. We prefer captialism hehe. N through liberalism, eventually, democracy. Democracy through evolution, not revolution.

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Sorry itz a bit messy but i still have a business exam 2morrow