LOS Question

[nzcamel]

Also, cities always have a range of 2. They ignore visibility requirements from city center. You could have mountains all around your city and still shoot over them. The unit inside of the city, like an archer, is still limited to visibility rules though. So in your screenshot case, once again, the city has its range because it always does and your archer can only shoot what it can see per the establish visibility rules.

The city garrison that you get with walls is limited to LOS I'm 99.9% certain. I'm basing that off the learnt knowledge that when I attack a walled city; if I move my (usually first as it's easiest to tell) unit to a place inside the two tile ring, but where said unit still cannot see the city, then the city -despite it's walls- will not shoot me... ergo, it can't see me either. I'm certain I have experienced similar things when defending a walled city.
That better be due to LOS rules, rather than bad AI!

 

[Yzman]

The city garrison that you get with walls is limited to LOS I'm 99.9% certain. I'm basing that off the learnt knowledge that when I attack a walled city; if I move my (usually first as it's easiest to tell) unit to a place inside the two tile ring, but where said unit still cannot see the city, then the city -despite it's walls- will not shoot me... ergo, it can't see me either. I'm certain I have experienced similar things when defending a walled city.
That better be due to LOS rules, rather than bad AI!

I have had numerous situations where I have a unit like a crossbowman in a city and the city can shoot at the unit 2 tiles away past a forest hill...but the crossbowman can't. This shouldn't happen if cities followed line of sight rules. The only way I can think of that can possibly make both of ours true is that a city can always shoot 2 tiles away...provided that it owns the territory. Maybe LOS rules apply if it is unowned but I am nearly positive I can always shoot at any units 2 tiles away from my cities ( and in my borders)

 

[nzcamel]

I have had numerous situations where I have a unit like a crossbowman in a city and the city can shoot at the unit 2 tiles away past a forest hill...but the crossbowman can't. This shouldn't happen if cities followed line of sight rules. The only way I can think of that can possibly make both of ours true is that a city can always shoot 2 tiles away...provided that it owns the territory. Maybe LOS rules apply if it is unowned but I am nearly positive I can always shoot at any units 2 tiles away from my cities ( and in my borders)

That is the very situation I'm talking about - my unit will be in their land, but the unit cannot see the city. From this conversation it appears possible that a unit or a city may be able to see another unit or city that cannot see it (the unit at all, the city in LOS); but this does seem to hold up - whether or not the city can see my unit; it cannot hit it with it's garrison. On the other hand I have seen times where walled cities do not fire at my units, for reasons that are beyond me. I guess I've put that down to the AI; though it's not impossible there could be another threat it's attacking out of my sight. Still bad AI I suspect, as no barb is going to be as dangerous at that point as I am.

 

[Yzman]

That is the very situation I'm talking about - my unit will be in their land, but the unit cannot see the city. From this conversation it appears possible that a unit or a city may be able to see another unit or city that cannot see it (the unit at all, the city in LOS); but this does seem to hold up - whether or not the city can see my unit; it cannot hit it with it's garrison. On the other hand I have seen times where walled cities do not fire at my units, for reasons that are beyond me. I guess I've put that down to the AI; though it's not impossible there could be another threat it's attacking out of my sight. Still bad AI I suspect, as no barb is going to be as dangerous at that point as I am.

I wouldn't use AI behavior as to whether something is possible for you to do or not. Try it yourself. It is very obvious that the cities can shoot over things that normally block LoS.

 

[nzcamel]

I wouldn't use AI behavior as to whether something is possible for you to do or not. Try it yourself. It is very obvious that the cities can shoot over things that normally block LoS.

*face-palm* You think I don't!? There are plenty of times in games where enemy units inside the garrisons range cannot be hit due to things in the way.

 

[nzcamel]

Here's a game I had saved that I'm not paying at the mo (yes I went through all my saved games to find a game that had a testable scenario as I'm not up with fire tuner etc!) Here I'm at war with the Cree. My musketman was in the -now- Nubian city to the bottom left; and I marched it deliberately behind the mountain next to the walled Cree capital to test your theory. Sure enough the garrison didn't shoot me:

Spoiler :

A turn later I moved it down within sight of the city, hoping it would shoot me (and that it wasn't just choosing not to for some reason). Sure enough it did:

Spoiler :

On the other hand, while some units around this other walled city have taken damage; none of it is from the garrison. Well not these couple of turns anyway. For some reason the AI has forgotten to use it?

Spoiler :

​

 

[HorseshoeHermit]

It's not always tactically sound to use the bombard shot.

 

[nzcamel]

It's not always tactically sound to use the bombard shot.

If by that you mean the garrison shot; and you're talking about the AI's use or non-use; and even more specifically where they have no units present... I can't see how. Feel free to elaborate if I'm not following.

 

[Shorlin]

If by that you mean the garrison shot; and you're talking about the AI's use or non-use; and even more specifically where they have no units present... I can't see how. Feel free to elaborate if I'm not following.

I think he means its a bad idea to use a ranged attack if you are just tickling your enemy because it feeds them xp.

a settler has a vision of 3 tiles (along with a Spy, Naturalist, Varu Conquistador Observation balloon, helicopter, Rocket Artillery, Uboat, Ironclad and missile Cruiser)

You learn something new everyday with this game.. I had no idea about extra vision on all those other units. No mention in civipedia or even wikis other than uboat and balloon

 

[nzcamel]

I think he means its a bad idea to use a ranged attack if you are just tickling your enemy because it feeds them xp.

Do you think that is a consideration the AI is making when it chooses not to use it's garrison shot!? Against an army!?

 

[Victoria]

For some reason the AI has forgotten to use it?

It certainly is quite often the case, I will often move a unit withing range of 2 cities to find one city does not bother to fire (why do I do so? Well to get 100 gold from a pillage or a trade route or 50 culture from a quarry) A horseman can often handle 2 shots. I just put it down to either time-outs or a rule that only one city will shoot per turn. i do remember a year ago someone mentioning their archers always get shot at but their crossbows never do... even if there is no other target... not sure if it is still the case but it seemed to be at the time.... maybe the AI is so clever it is stopping us getting XP.

You learn something new everyday with this game.. I had no idea about extra vision on all those other units. No mention in civipedia or even wikis other than uboat and balloon

There is plenty not in anything, we probably all know something about the game no-one else does... it is rather frustrating. For example I spent perhaps 2 weeks testing spies to try and understand fully how they work.... I did not get enough data in that time.

 

[nzcamel]

It certainly is quite often the case, I will often move a unit withing range of 2 cities to find one city does not bother to fire (why do I do so? Well to get 100 gold from a pillage or a trade route or 50 culture from a quarry) A horseman can often handle 2 shots. I just put it down to either time-outs or a rule that only one city will shoot per turn. i do remember a year ago someone mentioning their archers always get shot at but their crossbows never do... even if there is no other target... not sure if it is still the case but it seemed to be at the time.... maybe the AI is so clever it is stopping us getting XP.

Maybe... Lol.

In reality (if one got anything from arrows but unhelpful holes in oneself) I could see the point in not shooting. Certainly walling up and hoping the invaders didn't burn everything was a common survival strategy at times throughout history when one could. But in Civ, esp early on when builder charges come at a premium, keeping one -charge- around to fix pillaged tiles isn't a luxury one often has. Which makes killing any hostile unit all the more important if possible, rather than let them trash ones countryside. I suppose for the AI builder charges may come more easily depending on their bonuses.

Given everything the AI can't do so far (fly planes meaningfully etc); choosing when or when not to use a garrison shot seems a bit above their paygrade, no?

 

[Victoria]

keeping one -charge- around to fix pillaged tiles isn't a luxury one often has

Agreed, but one imagine with the new expansion one will need a repair crew handy to clean up after Taz

 

[Toofou]

I recall that we are talking about a game that is not able to display the "science yield" coming from population in the report screen ...
... Since release ...

Also figures are different between reports / city screen / tool bar in upper screen due to rounding rules not coherent ... This is visible in the first two turns and still not seen/prioritized by QA ...

And i'm highlighting only visible & simple things ...

Hence such considerations and AI strengh within this thread might be somehow too complicated to fix/implement or even take care about ...

 

[BrotherInJah]

So a warrior has a vision of 2 tiles but a settler has a vision of 3 tiles (along with a Spy, Naturalist, Varu Conquistador Observation balloon, helicopter, Rocket Artillery, Uboat, Ironclad and missile Cruiser).
I know my settler and any other unit can normally see higher objects an additional tile away.

In this picture below the mountain on the left is in fact visible by the warrior, If I move the warrior visibility of it goes. Also the warrior cannot see the tiles in front of the mountain because it is not on a hill and so is being blocked. However the two tiles in front of the mountain are hills and I would expect my settler to be able to see the upper one of the two if visibility is tile centre to tile centre.
View attachment 507189

When my settler founds the city it loses its extra visibility as a city can only see two tiles, however it is now raised by a level and so the white square tiles are marked that it can now see and tiles 3 away it can no longer see.
View attachment 507192

Here is a screenshot just showing all terrain so you can see the tiles in front of the mountain. I would have thought the settler could see the one marked as a centre to centre line does not cross another tile they cannot see over.
View attachment 507194

Additionally, why can an ironclad see 3 tiles but a battleship or destroyer only see 2?

Forest

 

[Wizard-Bob]

You learn something new everyday with this game.. I had no idea about extra vision on all those other units. No mention in civipedia or even wikis other than uboat and balloon

This complexity is exactly why the AI struggles in this game. It is 2+ years since launch, and we (humans) are still discovering!

 

[SammyKhalifa]

This complexity is exactly why the AI struggles in this game. It is 2+ years since launch, and we (humans) are still discovering!

And humans have the Internet hive-mind from which to draw new ideas.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

This complexity is exactly why the AI struggles in this game. It is 2+ years since launch, and we (humans) are still discovering!

I remember when games used to come with rules books that explained how they work, but I'm old.

 

[bbbt]

I remember when games used to come with rules books that explained how they work, but I'm old.

Both vanilla and R&F have PDF manuals on steam. For vanilla is was actually available before launch if you'd preordered.

I don't think they go into line of sight details though.

 

[Disgustipated]

I remember when games used to come with rules books that explained how they work, but I'm old

I think SMAC was my biggest rule book. Back in them days I had the patience to read all or most of the rule book even before playing the game.

I do believe I read civ 6 rule "book" as well since it released before the game.