Losing every game due to the peace-vassaling mechanic

[DrCron]

[Immortal difficulty]

Hi,

I lost my previous game due to the peace-vassaling mechanic (a "Friendly" small CIV wouldn't peace-vassal to me, but it did peace-vassal to my rival, who had fewer cities and was only at "pleased" status, and thus my diplo victory strategy went to hell), and I pretty much lost the one I'm playing right now too for the same reason.

See the save-game attached. Here's a short summary of what happened here:

1) I was the tech leader, everything going great, got to cuirs before anyone and attacked Mansa.
2) After I got 3 cities from Mansa, he still wouldn't capitulate, but he sure as hell would peace-vassal to Charlemagne.
3) Charlie had lots of cities and units, but was far behind in tech, so I said what the hell and went ahead with the war. It took me forever and my economy suffered greatly, but I made him irrelevant
4) If you see the saved game (1410 AD, standard speed) Charlie has 3 cities left. Now, here's the whole lot of nonsense that's taking place right now:

a) Charlie has 3 cities and Mansa has 5, but for some reason Mansa is still his vassal (WTH???).
b) Charlie still won't capitulate, even though he's been reduced to 3 cities and just lost his capital.
c) Next turn Charlie will peace vassal to Hannibal, who's ahead in tech now. There's absolutely no way I can deal with that war. At that point Mansa will be liberated from Charlie, but he still won't capitulate to me.

So...

HOW THE HELL DO PEOPLE WIN WITH VASSAL STATES ON??????

I'm seriously frustrated right now. Is the difficulty related to how fast (or slow, or never) will the AI capitulate to you? Is there some post that explains the mechanic of peace-vassaling (AI vs AI, not human player)? I'm pretty sure this wasn't so hard on Emperor. At this point I think I'll either stop playing the game or play with vassal states off only. This is just dumb.

 

[Gumbolt]

Biggest issue is probably your power rating. I figure your power rating is much weaker than some of the other AI. Probably why the Ai don't want to vassel to you.

You got MT 940ad. I don't understand why you didn't whip each city to death and run over all the Ai with cuirs??? That or build workshops and switch to caste for hammer economy to build units. You won't win this map with cavalry now.

I play with vassels all the time and I don't have issues as I am normally the stroingest Ai military wise. That and I play aggressive to take down an Ai early on if my land is poor.

You normally need to have land x times more than AI. Plus a power rating much higher than the average of all AI.

 

[obsolete]

HOW THE HELL DO PEOPLE WIN WITH VASSAL STATES ON??????

Try playing OCC for a while... you'll become a master at Vassal States pretty quick... I guarantee it.

 

[elitetroops]

He's not capitulating because he has a vassal. Mansa breaks free between turns, which allows him to become a vassal.

In your 1410AD save, demand that Hannibal gives you 10 gold in tribute. He will agree, resulting in a peace deal and him not being able to take your enemy as peace vassal. Next turn both Charlie and Mansa will capitulate and give you some techs in the deal.

 

[Anysense]

I would at least consider switching to confucianism. Next target must be Pacal and certainly I would like to have Hannibal pleased. What you need to break him down are cannons not grenadiers.

 

[elitetroops]

and certainly I would like to have Hannibal pleased.

This is very important. To answer the more general question about how to deal with peace vassals, the answer is diplo and good relations. If the AI isn't willing to be bribed into a war with you, then nobody you are at war with can peace vassal to them either. With Hannibal at pleased, Charlie wouldn't be able to peace vassal to him.

Since he's not pleased and I don't see any easy way to get him there, you'd have to demand tribute, which unfortunately adds more negative diplo. However, the fact that he does agree suggests that he's at most only slightly above your power rating. I think he should be beatable in a war as well.

 

[DrCron]

@Gumbolt:

Biggest issue is probably your power rating. I figure your power rating is much weaker than some of the other AI. Probably why the Ai don't want to vassel to you.

This should answer my 1st question. On Immortal the power rating must be much higher than on Emperor, hence the huge difference I'm noting.

You got MT 940ad. I don't understand why you didn't whip each city to death and run over all the Ai with cuirs???

I tried, my first stack had 25 units and I took Mansa's 3 cities fairly quickly. Then he peace-vassaled to Charlie (when the war started Charlie didn't even have his religion, he changed at some point and I didn't see it) and everything got delayed since I had to fight both at the same time.

The plan was to capitulate Mansa and only THEN attack Charlie, to eventually capitulate him too. With those 2 vassals I could b-line Mass Media and win a UN diplo victory.

 

[DrCron]

@elite

He's not capitulating because he has a vassal. Mansa breaks free between turns, which allows him to become a vassal.

In your 1410AD save, demand that Hannibal gives you 10 gold in tribute. He will agree, resulting in a peace deal and him not being able to take your enemy as peace vassal. Next turn both Charlie and Mansa will capitulate and give you some techs in the deal.

Awesome, I'll try this, thanks. Now I need to learn to anticipate the AI peace-vassaling to another AI. Do you know if there's a post that explains this mechanic, to know when it can happen?

 

[DrCron]

@Obsolete

Try playing OCC for a while... you'll become a master at Vassal States pretty quick... I guarantee it.

Fair enough, although actually... I won an OCC on Emperor, and it was way easier than this (not to mention faster). So I was seriously thinking about trying one on Immortal soon. First I'll try a peaceful cultural victory, though.

 

[DrCron]

@Anysense

I would at least consider switching to confucianism. Next target must be Pacal and certainly I would like to have Hannibal pleased. What you need to break him down are cannons not grenadiers.

My plan was to just have Mansa and Charlie as Vassals. I'm pretty sure that's enough to win a diplo victory if I manage to get the UN (with the techs and gold both of them should give me, I should be able to catch up in tech and still b-line mass media).

Thanks for the tip though, but I've been at war in this game for about 500 years and I'm tired of it at this point

 

[elitetroops]

Do you know if there's a post that explains this mechanic, to know when it can happen?

If you are at war and your enemy peace vassals, it acts like a war bribe. He bribes the other civ to war against you and as payment he offers himself as a vassal. So lots of conditions must be met, since the circumstances need to be right for both becoming a peace vassal and the war bribe. Most can be checked here.

Hannibal can be bribed to war at pleased if he is cautious or lower with target.

For becoming a peace vassal, the standard vassal conditions apply. Master must have 1.5x vassal's power if landtarget, 3x if not. Vassal must be below average power rating. Master must have >2x vassal land OR population. Vassal must like master enough to become a peace vassal. Probably forgot something on this list..

 

[Gumbolt]

Yep Elite is right if you demand 10 gold from Carthage this turn. Next turn Mansa breaks free. Then the Holy Roman empire will cap. Then Mansa will follow. Only in that order.

My guess is the issue is Hannibal was willing to join war as he has a higher power rating than you. On this basis the Ai would not cap. Also Carthage shares a border with them where more than 8 tiles overlap. I have never fully understood the vassel rules but small details can make big differences.

If you intend to take on Ottoman empire you will need to start whipping more cavalry pretty quickly. Otherwise maybe drafting rifles and cannons would be better here. You could easily draft 3 rifles a turn here. If you have globe theatre even better. There is still a lot of work to do here.

Of course you probably should of been drafting much sooner.

Your power rating is still lower than Carthage and Ottoman empire here. You need to work on quickly building up your military. Rifles will help.

 

[DrCron]

@Elite: thank you very much for the explanation, that makes a lot of sense, I'll start applying it from now on. Hopefully this stuff won't take me by surprise again.

@Gumbolt: after getting Charlie and Mansa, I think I'll whip cannons and go for Pacal. While the Ottoman don't have rifles, it's a lot of land and I would have to fight Isabella too. Also, Suleiman is the only one who will take bribes to DOW someone, so I can keep him fighting Hannibal when it's needed, to stop both of them from disrupting my war with Pacal. I think I'll build cannons while I b-line physics (both to get the GS and for airship support) and then I'll attack. I only need 1 more vassal to secure a diplo victory at this point.

Thanks everyone for the help.