Lost Overflow

[Rakish]

So recently I've discovered that if you gain a 25 boost in science from a raid on a ziggurat, you lose any science overflow from the previous turn tech completion meaning potentially your actually losing more science than you gain...

Anyone else noticed this for science and culture gained during turns from raids or great people etc?

 

[Victoria]

Yuk, sounds like a bug... if you raid another zig does the first ones 25 go?
I remember raiding last night and one loot completed a long one, maybe it's just improvements?

P.s. Well spotted

 

[Rakish]

So here's some screenshots of what I'm talking about

Sailing is a 50 cost tech which currently has the boost activated so is 25 science away from completion. I have 67 science a turn so should have 42 science overflow the next turn.

Next turn-

I can now 1 turn shipbuilding, a 200 science tech which has also been boosted so has 100 science to completion. I have 65 science a turn plus the 42 overflow from last turn, so all makes sense.

Now I raid the Zig-

As you can see the tech meter moved about 25 science worth but is now shown as a 2 turn tech and indeed, if I end turn the meter finishes up with 100 - (25 + 65) = 10 or so science now left on the tech meter.

As to the question, I cant easily prove it with this save but I'd suspect that as the science from raiding goes immediately into the meter you would not then lose this progress from another raid.

also with this example, it might not seem like a big deal but what if instead of 40 overflow I had 300 or more... then its a serious set back.

 

[Boyan_Sun]

I think this is a serious bug that hasn't been fixed yet. In fact, it is not just raid on a ziggurat, any instant science/culture income will overwritten previous overflow, as long as you choose the next technology or civic to study. It often causes very serious loss of science/culture, especially in the late game, when your income is high.

For example, assume your science per turn was 100, if you just finished a tech which was only 20 science left, you got 80 as overflow. Then in your turn, if you get instant science from any other source, like: looting mines, trigger eureka, activating great scientist..., then the overflow science will be overwritten by this instant income, which means the previous 80 overflow were lost. It's the same with culture, too.

This effect has spawned another interesting problem. Many scientists, such as Darwin, Galilei and Janaki Ammal, often don't provide enough science points that they should have, that is because their science points are given separately. For example, Galileo Galilei gave 250 science points per mountain tile, if there were 4 mountains around, then he in fact gave 250,250,250,250 one by another, rather than just 1000. Assume you have set 3 techs in sequence, which had 100, 300, 400 points left, things will happen like below:

• the first 250 will finish the first tech and overflow 250-100=150 [100/100, 150/300, 0/400]

• the 150 will be overwritten by the second 250 [100/100, 250/300, 0/400]

• the third 250 will finish the second tech and overflow 300-250=200 [100/100, 300/300, 200/400]

• finally, the forth 250 will overwritten the 200 [100/100, 300/300, 250/400]

See? They even cover each other. At the end, Galileo Galilei gives you only 1000-150-200=650 science points, but helps you finish 2 techs.

Chinese players discovered this bug more than a year ago and avoided it in various video and game reports as a matter of caution. I still do not think it's what the designer wants, and really hope it can be fixed in R&F.

@civtrader6 Maybe you're interested in this? In your video, Janaki Ammal only finished 2 techs, but in Rogue-Star's video, Janaki Ammal finished 4, which may be based on this calculation.

 

[Victoria]

Chinese players discovered this bug more than a year ago

I always knew it did not work out right but the clarity is great, thank you.
So I guess the best workaround is to wait until you have a high cost tech

 

[Boyan_Sun]

I guess the best workaround is to wait until you have a high cost tech

I know this must have been discovered here a long time ago, but it's not taken seriously, so it hasn't been fixed, hasn't it? After all, Chinese forums is generally ignored by officials because of the language barrier.

Some people think this is deliberate rather than a bug. Notice that completing tech will not trigger eureka, and completing civic will not trigger inspiration - They are always crossed. Because both of these situations can lead to loss of science/culture, so designer purposely avoid these situations. But I always thought it was a bug, at least it is not natural for Great Scientists to waste their own science points.

For great scientists who provide instant science point, if you do not want to waste any of the points, you can avoid choosing a set of techs that you want to accomplish, leaving only the technology that is currently being studied - do not let it have a NEXT option. If you haven't chosen the next tech when current technology is done, the overflow won't be cleared, it will accumulate correctly. Then choose your next tech after the points was given, and next several turns you must avoid other instant source, like triggering eureka or looting mines, or the overflow left will be cleared. But if you do this, it is impossible to complete more than one tech in one turn.

This science/culture overflow mechanism works just the opposite of the overflow production bug (which needs a NEXT option to avoid overflow clearing). It is said that the production overflow bug was fixed in the R&F (50% prod return by wonder is considered overflow production). So I really expect the other similar overflow bug will be fixed too.

 

[Victoria]

Chinese forums is generally ignored by officials because of the language barrier

It is wrong I know but I am happy with this because it is encouraging your use of this forum... sorry

This science/culture overflow mechanism works just the opposite of the overflow production bug

Hmm always? I play a bit of Gorgo and know that if I kill a unit with nothing in the queue the culture is lost. That getting an overflow of culture does not bleed into the next turn if I finish at the end of the turn so that mechanic seems to work like production.

I really expect the other similar overflow bug will be fixed too

I hope you are right but I certainly do not expect it based on history.

 

[Boyan_Sun]

Hmm always? I play a bit of Gorgo and know that if I kill a unit with nothing in the queue the culture is lost. That getting an overflow of culture does not bleed into the next turn if I finish at the end of the turn so that mechanic seems to work like production.

Not always, only applicable to the great scientists, for this I am sure. It seems to me that there is ambiguity in what I said above. In other cases except GP, whether you choose a NEXT tech/civic or not, as long as you get some instant science/culture, you will lose all the overflow. But I'm not so sure, I always try to avoid getting instant science/culture when there's overflow... Whatever, I might play again when R&F release.

 

[Victoria]

Not always, only applicable to the great scientists, for this I am sure

Its a good question, especially if we consider Ziggurats as well. Perhaps it is multiple overflows in this area that cause concern The Zig's seem to be resetting science just like the multiple 250's.
certainly the multiple productions around the space project do not reset it (phew)

 

[civtrader6]

Thanks guys for clearing out how this overflow bug actually works.
I kinda ignored it in the Rome game but was paying some attention with Pericles. After quickly going through the videos I was able to note quite a few instances of lost overflow - and lots of it as well - which is very unfortunate - and any attempt at a quick SV definitely needs to revolve around avoiding this bug.
The GS clarification is very important so thanks again.