Loyalty to the Motherland (King) [OPEN]

[raystuttgart]

I was always thinking of implementing a feature "Loyalty to the Motherland".
Basically this would again add more challenge and complexity to the game.

The core essence:

It is about colonists being "loyal" vs "rebellious" (Loyal to Motherland or Loyal to the Colonial Nation).
"Is your loyalty still with the Motherland or is your loyalty now with your new home the Colonies?"

So every single Unit can be either "loyal" or "rebellious" (nothing in between) but be converted from one to the other.
(It is more or less like a boolean.)

More explanation:

Spoiler :

A single City or a Colonial Nation will always either have "more Loyalists" or "more Revolutionaries".
(In the beginning however before you have started producing "Loyalty" or "Liberty Bells" a lot of the Population will be "unpolitical" - meaning neither of both.)

Max. Loyalist rate = 100% - current Revolutionary rate
and thus vice versa
Max. Revolutionary rate = 100% - Loyalist rate

It is possible though that something like this happens:
(Because there might still be many "unconverted" / "unpolitical" citizens.)

Loyalist rate = 20%
Revolutionary rate = 30%

Thus you will need to decide strategically (both on City Level and National Level) which way to go.
Each of the 2 alternatives will have advantages and disadvantages.

You can never have full advantages of both sides.
Not having the full advantages of the other side is basically the "disadvantage".

The current advantages of "Revolutionary Rate" will be split up.
Thus making the overpowered "Revolutionary Rate" less overpowered.

So basically currently we can consider 100% Revolutionary rate to be 100% full advantages - which is usually calculated like thits: Revolutionary rate / 2
(e.g. 100% Revolutionary Rate --> 50% Offensive Combat Bonus + 50% Defensive Combat Bonus which I feel is overpowered)

In the future with e.g. 60% Loyalty rate and 40% Revolutionary rate you will not have 100% full advantages because the Bonusses would be more specific (split).
(In the example you might have e.g. 30% Offensive Combat Bonus + 20% Defensive Combat Bonus)

Feature implementation concept:

Spoiler :

A) Producing Loyalty by Profession "Administrator"

In the Townhall (and its Upgrades) we currently only have 1 Profession (Statesman).
We could apply "Multiple Professions per Building" there as well.

So currently we have this:

Specialist / Profession / Yield
Great Satesman / Statesman / Liberty Bells
But we could add
Royal Administrator / Administrator / Loyalty

Both Yields (Liberty Bells and Loyalty) should be used for "Political Founding Father Points".
Thus Both Yields would contribute to getting Founding Fathers.

--> By producing "Liberty Bells" or "Loyalty" the player can influence the conversion of the Population from "Unpolitical" to "Rebellious" or "Loyal" or even change "Rebellious" to "Loyal" or vice versa. (See "C)")

B) Loyal / Rebellious "start" status

1) Most units will simply start "unpolitical" as now - neither "loyal" nor "rebellious"
(Those could be converted in Cities by producing either "Liberty Bells" or "Loyalty" with the corresponding professions.)
2) Some specific Units however are always "loyal" or "rebellious"
(e.g. "Governor" or "Royal Administrators" or "Great Statesmen" or "Renowned Noble" or "Political Refugees", ...)

--> We simply need 2 new XML settings for that (if a unit should always be loyal or a unit should always be rebellious).
--> This is true for all game mechanics that can create Units (e.g. Immigration, Buying, Learning, Growth or Capturing)

C) Loyal / Rebellious status "change / conversion" over time

1) Colonists working in City would have a chance to change their Political Attitude status depending on "Liberty Bell Production" and "Loyalty Production" of City (so based on the Yields)
2) Colonists on Map (e.g. Scouts) and other Units on Map (e.g. Ships) would have a chance to change their Loyalty depending on "National Loyalty Rate"

--> It is like the current logic for "Rebellion Rates" and might be included there
(but here we would now also affect the "Loyalty status" of single Units)

D) Effects of Loyal / Rebellious (Loyalty Rate / Revolutionary Rate)

Loyalty Rate Effects:
- Immigration of Specialists for "Plot Jobs" + "Cheap Workers" + "Royal Administrators" more likely (Total immigration rate still tied to Crosses)
- Production Bonus on "Plot Jobs" + Administration (only)
- Bonus on Offensive Combat (only)
- Less and lower Tax Increases
- Loyal Cities might rebel if refusing King's Request
- Specific new Python and DLL Diplo Events for "High Loyalty rate Cities"
- Sailing to Africa allowed only if "High National Loyalty rate" > 50%
- High National Loyalty rate might unlock something like "Declaring Kingdom" (new Victory Condition)
- Loyal Cities and Units on map will switch sides to the King if you "Declare Independence"
...

Revolutionary Rate Effects:
- Immigration of Specialists for "Building Jobs" + "Experienced Medics" + "Great Statesmen" more likely (Total immigration rate still tied to Crosses)
- Production Bonus on "Building Jobs" + Statesman (only)
- Bonus on Offensive Combat (only)
- More Domestic Demand
- Loyal Cities might rebel if accpting King's Request
- Specific new Python and DLL Diplo Events for "High Revolutionary rate Cities"
- Sailing to Port Royal allowed only if "High National Revolutionary rate" > 50%
- High National Revolutionary rate unlocks "Declaring Independence" (just like now)
- Revolutionary Cities and Units on map will switch sides to ??? (maybe another Nation?) if you "Declare Kingdom"
...

General Effects:
- Cities where the spilt between "Loyalty Rate" and "Revolutionary Rate" is very close (e.g. 50:50) you will have additional chances for Python Event with Revolt (thus the cities should bacially be a bit specialized)
- All of this could be tied in with our ideas for "Civics Concept"

E) AI concept

Well, to be honest I would prefer to make the negative effects "Human only".
Otherwise his is getting too complicated for AI to handle in my opinion.

The rest will work jus the same for AI and Human Players.

F) Visualization concept

- The "Loyalty / Revolutionary Status" of the Units should be displayed at Mouse over (Europe Screen Docks, City Screen and Map).
- The "Loyalty Rate" of the Citiy and Nation should be just displayed next to "Revolutionary Rate" (e.g. City Screen and Map Screen) so players better understand.

G) Effort aspects of the concept

- It is basically mainly DLL computation that can reuse "Revolutionary Rate" logic a lot.
- We will need to adjust DLL logic how ever depending on the game mechanics we want to tie into.
- Of course there might also be some Python changes involved for new Python Events.
- By the way we would already have the icons needed for "Loyal" and "Rebellious".
- Of course we will also need to adjust XML and write texts.

---------------

My Personal Summary:

My personal pros:

• It would make the game more challenging / interesting for experienced Players (especially WOI)
  
• It add a little realims and flavour.
• It adds an alternative for gameplay towards "Victory Independence"

My personal cons:

• The effort for implementing this concept is considerable although it can be handled.
• We would need to carefully consider performance although the impact on performance should be moderate.
• I do not want to affect AI negatively but I am aware that Players don't like "Human only" feature (considering negative effects).
• Since most of the complicated and risky logic will be triggered by "Declaring Independence" this is not easy to be tested by beta testers that just regularly play the game.

I am not fully convinced myself that it is a good idea to implement something as complex as this.
But since I already have this concept for so many years I thought I might ask for feedback of team and community.

--------------
Feedback, ideas or suggestions?
I am curious to hear your opinions.

 

[3tag]

I'm glad that your share your ideas and thoughts ...
although, for the moment, I have nothing to contribute that further develops your ideas.

Nevertheless, some dynamic during the playthrough would really suit the game.

 

[raystuttgart]

I'm glad that your share your ideas and thoughts ...

Well, that is definitely not the problem.
Most likely we all still have lots of ideas and concepts lying around.

But will those ideas and concepts really make the mod better?
Or will we just waste time and effort and end up with worse perfomance, worse AI and bugs?

As you see, I have doubts on many of my old ideas and concepts as well.
(The once I might eventually discuss in public should technically all be possible though.)

 

[Nightinggale]

I think if this is a thing, it should have a bigger impact on the game. We could mix this with civics where the player can encourage rebellion or loyalty. The civic can then have the ability to change the loyal setting of units towards the chosen point of view providing certain aspects. For instance rebellion can be affected by tax rate while loyalty can be affected by trading with the king.

Both approaches should be feasible. A rebel gets bonuses towards WOI while a loyal player might get royal reinforcements when at war with other European players, making conquest/domination victories easier.

We need other benefits too, like certain professions being more likely to turn up on the dock if the colonies are loyal or rebel.

Technically I have no issues with the concept. It all seems doable. The issue is that we need to develop this concept further to figure out if we can end up with an idea, which would be nice to have in the game. We need to have an idea of how much it will affect gameplay and how.

 

[raystuttgart]

The issue is that we need to develop this concept further to figure out if we can end up with an idea, which would be nice to have in the game.
We need to have an idea of how much it will affect gameplay and how.

I absolutely agree.

The curent concept is not affecting gameplay enough before WOI.
Until now I simply did not have any ideas what else it could do ...

For instance rebellion can be affected by tax rate while loyalty can be affected by trading with the king.

That part I already partially considered by the effects of accepting / rejecting King's request.
But maybe we could really do more with that ...

A rebel gets bonuses towards WOI while a loyal player might get royal reinforcements when at war with other European players, making conquest/domination victories easier.
...
We could mix this with civics where the player can encourage rebellion or loyalty.

Interesting.

Technically I have no issues with the concept. It all seems doable.

Me too, I never doubted it was doable or otherwise I would not have posted.
It will however be noteable effort.

----------

Let us see what the rest of the team and community think.

 

[Nightinggale]

Maybe we can use a civic to control how liberty bells are handled. For instance if they are gained from a printing press and your civic states you should produce propaganda for the king, then loyalty would increase as you increase bells. Touching that would however affect how we handle the current rebel system as the amount of rebels increase in colonies with bell production.

 

[Commander Bello]

like certain professions being more likely to turn up on the dock if the colonies are loyal or rebel.

Why would a loyalist be more inclined to leave his mothercountry and the direct reign of his beloved souvereign? The emigrant per definition has a strong reason to leave his homeland.
So, "loyal" professions who then turn out to benefit the colony are not really a vey convincing idea.

 

[raystuttgart]

So, "loyal" professions who then turn out to benefit the colony are not really a vey convincing idea.

With the current concept no, of course not.

But the concept I presented might still change radically.
We still need to figure out what to do with my rough concept in detail.

Thus Nightinggale was just throwing in some "brainstorming thoughts" to start to think and maybe discuss about.

 

[Commander Bello]

Thus Nightinggale was just throwing in some "brainstorming thoughts" to start to think and maybe discuss about.

Right. And I have taken the liberty to point out where I see a problem with that idea.

 

[Nightinggale]

Why would a loyalist be more inclined to leave his mothercountry and the direct reign of his beloved souvereign? The emigrant per definition has a strong reason to leave his homeland.

That's actually a good point. However a loyalist could very well go as a representative for the king as in expanding the mother country. Maybe something like crosses attract rebels, profit attracts loyalists and bells can attract either depending on civic setup.

Thus Nightinggale was just throwing in some "brainstorming thoughts" to start to think and maybe discuss about.

Pretty much this. I'm not convinced I want everything I post at this point. I write stuff, which could be interesting, read the replies and then consider what would work and what wouldn't. In fact I think some (or all?) of what I write might not work that great unless the concept evolves further.

 

[Commander Bello]

However a loyalist could very well go as a representative for the king as in expanding the mother country. Maybe something like crosses attract rebels, profit attracts loyalists and bells can attract either depending on civic setup.

Bells currently are also an indicator for the revolutionary sentiments within the colony. The loyalist would necessarily have to reduce the output of bells - with all consequences regarding productivity, acquiring of Founding Fathers and so on.
And crosses attracting rebels would work for the English colonies, but no other nation. Well, I have to admit I don't know how many of the French colonists were Hugenottes, but that would be the ones who would come to mind.

In short: while the idea of having conflicts between loyalists and rebels is intriguing, having professions which by definition are leaning more at the one or the other side doesn't seem to fit.

 

[Guynemer]

This seems like a lot of work for not a lot of appreciable changes for the player, in addition to the problem of it being not-applicable to the AI colonies.

Also, just wanted to say I discovered this mod this past week and I love it. Thank you and the whole team.

 

[raystuttgart]

This seems like a lot of work for not a lot of appreciable changes for the player, in addition to the problem of it being not-applicable to the AI colonies.

Probably true.

The current concept is unlikely to be implemented because it does not add enough value to the game compared to the efforts needed to implement it.
And yes, there are AI issues with the feature that I currently could only handle if the negative effects would be "Human only" - which should be the worst case solution only.

The concept was mainly posted to collect ideas / brainstorming to see if we can make a better concept out of this.
Maybe with some ideas from team and community this could still get a feature worth implementing.

Also, just wanted to say I discovered this mod this past week and I love it. Thank you and the whole team.

That is honey for a modders soul.
Feedback like this keeps a modding team motivated.

We also thank you for playing and visiting our forum.

 

[Nightinggale]

This seems like a lot of work for not a lot of appreciable changes for the player

I notice that only one player has openly declared not liking this idea. However I notice that nobody have declared that they love the idea either. Still it's important to propose such ideas and brainstorm on them to see what we can come up with. Sometimes it can result in something useful even if the initial idea turns out to be useless. Also if we stop proposing out of fear of rejection, then we will lose good ideas.

My personal take is that we should keep on exploring ideas like this (well most ideas) to see if something comes out of it, which can be used. It can happen that somebody propose something for this, which is then used for something entirely different. We should encourage debate on what we want with the mod and which features we want, even if it means debating and brainstorming on ideas, which ends up being rejected.

 

[raystuttgart]

Still it's important to propose such ideas and brainstorm on them to see what we can come up with.
Sometimes it can result in something useful even if the initial idea turns out to be useless. Also if we stop proposing out of fear of rejection, then we will lose good ideas.

I fully agree.

Also considering this specific proposal:
I have suggested it because I might be interested in doing most of it myself - if we can further flesh it out and make it worth the efforts.
Of course I would still need some help - especially with AI and beta testing.

This feature concept is not completely dead for me yet.
Other features that we have talked about e.g. "CivEffects" or "Satisfaction" might bring in new ideas that will make it more interesting.

Let us see how things will develop.
If there is enough interest to invest the efforts, solutions can be found.

 

[Drunk-Monk]

This idea is really interesting and I was also toying with a similar concept. I outlined my ideas, some of them inspired by the original Col here : https://github.com/We-the-People-civ4col-mod/Mod/issues/318

However, it would need to be well implemented with plenty of testing to function well. If done poorly it risks being arbitrary and alienating the player. There is also the issue of the fact that historians are still struggling to understand why most of the colonies rebelled, it seems like the majority of the population was not enthusiastic and rebels were distinctly in the minority, how to model this is complex.

 

[raystuttgart]

This idea is really interesting and I was also toying with a similar concept.

The main problems I currently have with my concept:
(I am currently trying to come up with a more fleshed out concept by the way.)

What game effects should it have by itself before WOI?
Just a few new DLL events or small Python events and revolts simply do not justify the efforts.

What other game mechanics could we tie into?
- Should Loyalty vs. Rebellious Sentiment somehow affect immigration (e.g. the likeliness of specific units/specialists)?
- Could it affect your tax rate somehow (like the min. or max. value of single tax increases)?
- Could it affect the probability of specific other Diplo Events or their potential rewards / costs ?
- Could it somehow be tied in with some of our current Civics ideas?
- Could it somehow be tied in with some of our current ideas on Happiness?
...

How can we balance positive and negative effects?
The feature should have meaningful strategic decisions to choose between Loyal and Rebellious considering current game situation.

------------------

Thus I was suggesting this idea.
I thought there would be some brainstorming and ideas from community.

------------------

For WOI itself this is a complete game changer of course.
It will make it much more challenging because some of your cities and troops will switch sides if you are not careful enough or declare Independence too early.

But that happens really late in game and many players might not even play a game until then ...
With the current concept this concept would add only little value for these players.

However, it would need to be well implemented with plenty of testing to function well.

The DLL / Python coding of the functionality itself is not what I am worried about. But yes, it will be some effort.
Problems however might occur with AI (unless I code it Human only) and especially with balancing.

But yes, there might be side effects and bugs - especially if we tie into many of other features / game mechanics.
And yes, the most difficult / risky logic currently (switching sides) would be triggered by WOI and thus very tedious to test by beta testers that play normal games.

If done poorly it risks being arbitrary and alienating the player.
..., how to model this is complex.

That is exactly why I am still struggling with this.
It sounds really interesting but the concept needs to be really good.

 

[Commander Bello]

Just a general remark: the poll requests a binary yes/no decision with nothing in between nor a neutral option.
Actually, the idea as such does have its merits but I am seeing quite some problems with the currently proposed way of implementing. Therefore, I am not able to cast my vote as it wouldn't be the "right" one either way.

I don't know if the forum software allowes for it, but I would propose to reissue a poll with 5 options
A) 100% agree
B) leaning towards it, but seeing problems (see posts)
C) no opinion
D) leaning against it, but seeing merits (see posts)
E) 100% against it

 

[raystuttgart]

Another Brainstorming Idea:

Basically I am reusing ideas from the old Discussion in RaR on "Administration" it would just not be called like that.
This would be added to the concept explained above (not replace any of that).

1) Producing Loyalty by Profession

In the Townhall (and its Upgrades) we currently only have 1 Profession (Statesman).
We could apply "Multiple Professions per Building" there as well.

So currently we have this:

Specialist / Profession / Yield
Great Satesman / Statesman / Liberty Bells
But we could add
Royal Administrator / Administrator / Loyalty

Both Yields (Liberty Bells and Loyalty) should be used for "Political Founding Father Points".
Thus Both Yields would contribute to getting Founding Fathers.

Reasons / Pros for this:

• Production of Loyalty (as Yield) would use the same patterns as currently the Liberty Bells and thus be relatively easy to understand.
  
• Conversion (Rebellious vs. Loyalty) could be applied in both ways - depending what is currently more beneficial to your situation.
• Could make the concept above more flexible.
• I see little risk of bugs with using "Multiple Proessions per Building" here as well.

Cons:

• Well, it is another Yield, another Profession and another Specialist. (Although it is not simply another "Cash Yield")
• There is some effort of course but it is doable. (see below)
  
• This still does not solve the general questions of the overall concept ("What effects should Loyalty really have?", "How to balance them?")

Remarks on Effort:

• For the Specialist graphics ("Royal Administrator") we could simply recolour the Coat of "Great Statesman" (e.g. to red) as simplest solution.
• Icon for the Yield is already there. (We could use the current "Crown Icon" for "Culture" and give "Culture the old one.)
  
• DLL programming (incl. AI) and XML configuration for this is technically simple but still effort - just the same patterns as for "Liberty Bells".
• Some adjustment to City Screen and Advisor Screens would become necessary though (all doable however)

-----

As I said, this is just another Brainstorming idea.

What I like about it though:
We could influence conversion "Loyalty vs. Rebellious Sentiment" in both direction.
(Depending on their specific advantages / disadvantages and current game situation.)

It still does not answer my general questions / solve my general problems with the concept.
("What effects should Loyalty really have?", "How to balance them?")

Edit:
I will add this to the concept above.

 

[Commander Bello]

We could apply "Multiple Professions per Building" there as well.

So currently we have this:

Specialist / Profession / Yield
Great Satesman / Statesman / Liberty Bells
But we could add
Royal Administrator / Administrator / Loyalty

This sounds like Statesman producing bells > +6 for rebellion
And Administrator producing crowns > -6 for rebellion
Total
+0 rebellion
+12 for Founding Fathers (which opens a can of worms if a "revolutionary FF" would be gained via accumulated crowns)
+x(?) for productivity/efficiency

Edit:
Assuming both would add to productivity/efficiency, the one in the minority (as far as rebellion points are concerned) would help to improve the results of his counterpart as bells are subject to better productivity as well (and as both yields shall work in the same way, so would crowns)