Lumber mills? What for?

[Runner]

Lumbermills with railroads are equal to mines and workshops, plus they give an extra 0.5

Unfortunately by the time I get Replaceable Parts I don't have many forests left.

Sorry to be so dense but ...

Why the reference to railroads? RRs don't boost any improvement's output.

 

[Pomp]

Runner, a railroad adds a 1 hammer bonus to any tile with a mine or lumber mill in it. It might affect workshops, too...I don't build them often enough to be sure.

 

[Runner]

Runner, a railroad adds a 1 hammer bonus to any tile with a mine or lumber mill in it. It might affect workshops, too...I don't build them often enough to be sure.

Thanks. It's nice to learn something new everyday.

 

[obsolete]

VERY generally, I chop all forests in the initial 9 square city radius (no defence bonus for attacking armies), and any forests outside that (the rest of the big fat cross) will be kept for lumbermills.

Seems to be something flawed in that.. expecting to have the enemy just camp right outside your capital...

 

[bluedevil99]

As somebody else mentioned, lumbermills are terrific on maps like archipalego where you have few ideal production sites and most of your hammers come from forested plains anyway.

Also, for commerce city sites I tend to improve forested plains and hills last anyway (unless I need them for early chopping). Often I haven't grown enough to need those squares until shortly before replacable parts and railroad come along, and mills, RR, and universal suffrage can often give an otherwise commerce-oriented city enough hammers to pump out a few units or an SS Casing.

 

[LlamaCat]

I used to chop all the forests around my early cities but I've found that strategically leaving some for the later game has really improved my play. The bonus from railroad production and health can be a game-winner under the right circumstances. And keep in mind that generally your capital and second city in the later game will really shine with high populations, using the beauracracy civic, and other things. those are your oldest cities so they will have more time to get big, and they really need the health. forests also provide an extra hammer early on, if you don't have a lot of hills around.

 

[futurehermit]

tundra forests always get lumbermills in my empire.

 

[Andrei_V]

It might affect workshops, too...I don't build them often enough to be sure.

No, it does not. All you need for Workshops is Chemistry, and, maybe, State Property for +1 food.

 

[Heeringas]

I use Lumbermills like Futurehermit, in tundra city. It can be great industrial era production city, for exp. for producing naval units. Drydock forge factory...forests balances health.
Sometimes around capital or GP city in middle of floodplains I might save some forests, Riverside plain forest is good place for lumbermill...but it might be better as cottage, it depends...

So tundra forests I will NEVER chop away, but other I consider...and I usually chop them away...

 

[Pomp]

No, it does not. All you need for Workshops is Chemistry, and, maybe, State Property for +1 food.

Thanks. I was drawing a total blank on how workshops actually work.

 

[ShredZ]

Lumbermills make almost no sense. Why would you wait 3/4 of the game to finally get some decent production of of a tile? By chopping them you can rush early buildings, and by mining over them you can have 300+ turns of good hammer production, over the course of the game thats a ton of hammers more than just leaving a forest. By the time lumbermills come along I already pretty much know if Im going to win or lose, Ive never had a game where I was like 'wow lumbermills, finally i can go on to win this game!'. Plus the health loss can easily be rectified. Basically they have no redeeming aspects at all for me.

With StateProperty pretty much dominating the scene, theres even less reason to keep them around.

 

[popejubal]

Lumbermills make almost no sense. Why would you wait 3/4 of the game to finally get some decent production of of a tile? By chopping them you can rush early buildings, and by mining over them you can have 300+ turns of good hammer production, over the course of the game thats a ton of hammers more than just leaving a forest. By the time lumbermills come along I already pretty much know if Im going to win or lose, Ive never had a game where I was like 'wow lumbermills, finally i can go on to win this game!'. Plus the health loss can easily be rectified. Basically they have no redeeming aspects at all for me.

With StateProperty pretty much dominating the scene, theres even less reason to keep them around.

Well, in BtS, State Property is going to be a lot less attractive. No corporations means that you're going to have a potential handicap. Also, There's a lot to be said for Free Enterprise if you have a good economy and there are a few AI civs that also have good economies for you to trade with.

If you don't like Lumber Mills, that's fine. Personally, I find that I am not going to use all of my tiles even in my capital, so leaving a few forests behind is just fine with me. I'll be working those grassland Towns, Farms and a few Mines before Replaceable Parts. Once Replaceable Parts kicks in, I'll very much enjoy being able to kick in some extra production and I especially like having a massive production city in the middle of a vast flat land just because I remembered to leave behind a few trees.

It's also entirely possible to end up with Replaceable Parts before Chemistry. If you know that an opponent is going for Military Tradition, then you might want to make a run for Rifles as a counter and wait a bit for Chemistry. That means 2F, 2H for a Grassland Forest vs. 1F 1H for a Workshop. Even after Chemistry, it's 2F, 2H for Lumbermills on a Grassland Forest vs. 1F 2H for the Workshop. It's even worse for Plains.

Lumber Mills are certainly not the most exciting thing that you could possibly have in a city. It think that honor goes to properly teched out Watermills or fully developed (and appropriately civic'd) Towns. Lumber Mills aren't such a bad thing to have around, though.

Remember, you're probably going to have Replaceable Parts long before you get to read any of Chairman Mao's little red book.

 

[obsolete]

Lumbermills make almost no sense. Why would you wait 3/4 of the game to finally get some decent production of of a tile? By chopping them you can rush early buildings, and by mining over them you can have 300+ turns of good hammer production, over the course of the game thats a ton of hammers more than just leaving a forest. By the time lumbermills come along I already pretty much know if Im going to win or lose, Ive never had a game where I was like 'wow lumbermills, finally i can go on to win this game!'. Plus the health loss can easily be rectified. Basically they have no redeeming aspects at all for me.

With StateProperty pretty much dominating the scene, theres even less reason to keep them around.

When you graduate to the higher levels, you will run into much greater health problems. Health is related to growth, which can cause problems getting super cities running early.

Also chopping has been penalized in warlords, so it's not always wise to go chopping everything right off the bat. At least waiting until mathematics may not be so bad.

Now no one is saying you shouldn't MINE over forests, but you can only build mines on hills. Mining a forest isnt so bad because you get both a chop rush, but also an extra hammer early. On the other hand, you trade off health. It can still be ok, but for flatland areas it is often best to leave forests, especially if your production is low.

A big newbie problem is people chopping everything just cause they can, then sitting with hardly any hammers or health for long stretches.

You can't just focus on the NOW, you MUST plan ahead if you want to graduate into the higher levels.

 

[ShredZ]

Ya I completly agree that you gotta be smart with yer forests, some of them hang on for a bit, most get cut down AFTER mathmatics. But by the end of the game Id say 95% of forests are long gone, surviving forests just dont make or break the game... I would say that enviromentalism should provide all forests with +1 or something.


PS: I consistantly win on Monarch, so Im guessing that yer talking about having to watch your at Emperor and above ?

 

[Quechua]

If you don't have state property, keeping 2 railroaded forests in your city radius gives you +1 health, and +2 food, compared to workshops. That's potentially 3 more mines and workshops that your city can work, at the expense of some quick hammers from chopping. Food is power!

Even before you get railroads, trading some production for food and health can boost the overall production of your city. And even if you have state property, the +health still helps, since your major production cities tend to have health problems.

If you have to chop, chop....but don't do it automatically...

 

[bode404]

I always leave forests on cities with low production, so they can benefit from lumbermills later.

 

[InFlux5]

Just to sum up:

1. Lumbermills are used when you don't want to lose food to a Workshop.

2. Forests (and lumbermills) may be the only source of production in some cities, so that chopping is ill-advised.

People seem to be overlooking (1) as if the food didn't matter. Every city is a balance between food, production, and commerce (and specialists). Losing 1 food is unacceptable in many cases.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

I like to chop forests for hammers only for very early acceleration (eg an axe rush or getting a wonder).

Otherwise I leave them around until removing them is right for the city. So gradually the forests around my capital disappear as I have cottaged all the other land and secured health from somewhere else. But I am not in a hurry to chop them down - they are useful for emergency production, and for health in the meantime.

Eventually my capital probably loses all its forests. But ideally my production cities don't. Lumbermills come onstream around ironworks. Running a large ironworks city is a challenge due to the multiple health penalties you accumulate. But doing it with 6 or so forests around makes life much easier. My last game had a size 18 ironworks city that used lumbermills and was able to build the late game happiness wonders in five turns (I was industrious). It still had health penalties, but coped OK thanks to the forests.

 

[arbarbonif]

I'll almost always mine forested hills because of the other benefit of mines, they can create new resources. One game I had both gold and iron pop in a city on the same turn.

In most games I seem to have about 4 or 5 resources show up on mined hills throughout the game. I'll also always road hills, even before railroad, just on the odd chance that if something pops it will already be hooked up.

Flatland forests I hate chopping down, without a compelling reason to do so.