Main reason for seeing 'multiculturalism' as a failure

[Tee Kay]

Everything works fine when everyone is making money. It's when there is no money is when it turns into a mess.

Fixed that for you.

 

[Arwon]

That's a pretty big assumption on your part. Culture-wise Greeks and Italians were probably closer to Australians than Turks are to Germans, which kind of is the point of the other side's argumentation. Those who don't integrate well in Sweden - in what way weren't they supported? In what way does Australia support their immigrants more than Sweden?

Greeks, Turks, Italians, Maltese... they were all the same thing as far as Australia was concerned when they started migrating here.

As for what's done differently? We welcome them as new Australians, respect their cultures, fund schools and education programs geared towards their language and cultures, and see them as full members of the community who will end up citizens who contribute to and enrich the cultural tapestry. We spend money on TV and radio stations geared towards different cultures (most prominently, the SBS). We have local governments and sometimes even State governments funding and promoting various festivals and cultural events. We don't assume newcomers are just economic resources and secretly hope they will all go home eventually, we don't insist newcomers they abandon their own culture and become exactly like anglo-celtic Australians. In a short, we don't see a contradiction between being Australian and having your own culture, and we set policy and expectations accordingly.

 

[useless]

Unless they are aboriginals

 

[Arwon]

Indeed. It's a bit of a disgrace.

 

[Masada]

We actually do all that for Aboriginals, arguably more than we do for the wogs.

 

[Arwon]

Yeah but they have to be good at football or outspokenly support Liberal Party policy in order to be accepted into the community.

 

[Loppan Torkel]

Greeks, Turks, Italians, Maltese... they were all the same thing as far as Australia was concerned when they started migrating here.

It doesn't make your assumption any less of an assumption.

As for what's done differently? We welcome them as new Australians, respect their cultures, fund schools and education programs geared towards their language and cultures, and see them as full members of the community who will end up citizens who contribute to and enrich the cultural tapestry. We spend money on TV and radio stations geared towards different cultures (most prominently, the SBS). We have local governments and sometimes even State governments funding and promoting various festivals and cultural events. We don't assume newcomers are just economic resources and secretly hope they will all go home eventually, we don't insist newcomers they abandon their own culture and become exactly like anglo-celtic Australians. In a short, we don't see a contradiction between being Australian and having your own culture, and we set policy and expectations accordingly.

I'm not impressed, it's nothing we don't have and due to our generous welfare system, our immigrants are likely given more economical support than your. I'm sorry, but your belief that all will fix itself by giving enough support isn't true. That said, most of our immigrants do integrate well.

The problem is that people tend to believe that cultural and religious issues are something that vanish over time in a secular and liberal society.

 

[Arwon]

---------------

 

[Arwon]

I like how you think it's making an argument to point out that a speculative guess about a hypothetical counterfactual is, OMG, "an assumption". You got me there, wow!

Anyways, the problem in Europe must be the attitudes of the locals then, if the government is doing the right thing and the migrants are integrating.

 

[Loppan Torkel]

Must be the attitudes of the locals then.

What attitude? Voicing that there are issues in integrating immigrants? Is it a subject that you'd like to remain taboo?

 

[Loppan Torkel]

I like how you think it's making an argument to point out that a speculative guess about a hypothetical counterfactual is, OMG, "an assumption". You got me there, wow!

Why bring such a thing up in the first place then? -"All might have been perfect if you just had done like Australia 50 years ago"?! That's a great point to argue against...

Anyways, the problem in Europe must be the attitudes of the locals then, if the government is doing the right thing and the migrants are integrating.

You're still making a lot of assumptions.

 

[Arwon]

Assumptions? You just said both of those things were true, in your own post.

I'm not impressed, it's nothing we don't have and due to our generous welfare system, our immigrants are likely given more economical support than your. I'm sorry, but your belief that all will fix itself by giving enough support isn't true. That said, most of our immigrants do integrate well.

So now we're back to wondering what exactly it is you're complaining about and what you'd like to see happen in terms of policy.

 

[Masada]

Arwon: Europe is an objectively awful place. It must be, if people are willing to come to Australia in such numbers. We might like to piss and moan about the state of the antipodes but when we get down to it, more Europeans come here than leave. What the vast majority of Europeans are yet to grasp, is that while where they live sucks, there are places that suck slightly more - the Congo for instance. Thus, people are willing to put up with Europe, even if it is only a slight improvement on their previous situation. Furthermore, we know that everyone sane - except blinkered Europeans - aspires to move to Canada, the United States, Australia or New Zealand, who, by and large, don't mind if people have funny accents, eat funny food and do funny things. We've been putting up with Europeans our whole history - black pudding, suits in Sydney summers etc -, so whatever customs these poor people bring are pretty mild in comparision. This helps to explain a few things, namely why these people refuse to intergrate in a vastly inferior society. Simply put, they want to leave to greener, more tolerant less bigoted and blinkered climes.

Yeah but they have to be good at football or outspokenly support Liberal Party policy in order to be accepted into the community.

My bad, I forgot. You live in Canberra.

 

[Loppan Torkel]

This -

I'm not impressed, it's nothing we don't have and due to our generous welfare system, our immigrants are likely given more economical support than your. I'm sorry, but your belief that all will fix itself by giving enough support isn't true. That said, most of our immigrants do integrate well.

and this -

Anyways, the problem in Europe must be the attitudes of the locals then, if the government is doing the right thing and the migrants are integrating.

aren't the same, nor can you conclude it's the fault of the locals from it. Not with reason at least.

Perhaps the immigrants not integrating in society need more incentives for prioritizing their contribution to their new home over their own culture, in those cases where these are incompatible. And as explained earlier, I wouldn't mind seeing some conditions being met to gain and keep citizenship. Violent or severe crimes as well as support of terrorism should make a case for withdrawal of citizenship.

 

[Formaldehyde]

What the Muslims clearly need is a TV show that teaches culturally intolerant people that they are really no different than any other group. After all, just look at the pivotal role Bill Cosby had in finally eradicating racial intolerance in the US.

The Qu'osby Show.

 

[Cutlass]

That's a pretty big assumption on your part. Culture-wise Greeks and Italians were probably closer to Australians than Turks are to Germans, which kind of is the point of the other side's argumentation. Those who don't integrate well in Sweden - in what way weren't they supported? In what way does Australia support their immigrants more than Sweden?

I think it's less "who supports them better" and more "who lets them get on with their lives better". The US hardly supports any of its poor at all well, including immigrants. But immigrants tend to do pretty well overall.

 

[Loppan Torkel]

I think it's less "who supports them better" and more "who lets them get on with their lives better"

Would you like to clarify how you "let them get on with their lives"? Sweden is a pretty liberal country with extensive laws against discrimination. One of the problems might be that some continue/get on with their former lives in small communities, but getting taken care of by the state.

 

[Singularity]

Would you like to clarify how you "let them get on with their lives"? Sweden is a pretty liberal country with extensive laws against discrimination. One of the problems might be that some continue/get on with their former lives in small communities, but getting taken care of by the state.

Sorry to say this Loppan, but a lot of the Aussies are talking out of their collective arses. Any country that manages to nurture John Howard as a PM for allmost 12 years are clearly needing a lesson or two in multiculturality.

In August 2001, under Captain Arne Rinnan, a diplomatic dispute brewed between Australia, Norway, and Indonesia after Tampa rescued 438 Afghans from a distressed fishing vessel in international waters. The Afghans wanted passage to nearby Christmas Island. The Australian government sought to prevent this by refusing Tampa entry into Australian waters, insisting on their disembarkment elsewhere, and deploying the SASR to board the ship. At the time of the incident, Tampa carried cargo worth A$20 million, and 27 crew.

The crew of Tampa received the Nansen Refugee Award for 2002 from the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) for their efforts to follow international principles of saving people in distress at sea.

source

There's a lot of human dispair in Australia. It's just another experience than the one we have here in Europe.

I think whoever posted on last page about having or not having money is on to something. Which of course starts with a good educational system in the area, low unemployment and most important of all - stringent regulation of factors that promote exclusion from the host culture and support of factors that support cooperation and acceptance of the hosts culture.

In France it's forbidden to publisize any statistics of negative social values that includes representational numbers by a cultural minority within the country. Now, that's just daft IMO. It's running from the problem and pretending it's not there, and eventually it will all just flood over and there will be cars burning in the french streets all over again. There's so many ways you can fail in making a true multicultural success-story, and very few places where you can do the right thing it seems.

 

[Arwon]

I've spoken before about the weird disconnect between our pretty good attitude to migrants in general, and our insane media-driven racist paranoia over a handful boat people (and only boat arrivals, not plane arrivals). That ain't news.

Even Howard continued to pay lip service to what was only a superficially different version of multiculturalism (I think he formulated it as cultural diversity with a shared national identity, whatever that means) and allow record numbers of migrants into the country including asylum seekers and refugees, whilst beating up on a few hundred desperate refugees who came via boats. It's worth noting that virtually all the Tampa refugees ended up being granted entry.

Really, if someone as widely regarded as a last ditch anachronism of White Australia like Howard, a confused old man who misses some idealised 1950s suburbia, couldn't end the idea, then it must be pretty resilient.

 

[Cutlass]

Would you like to clarify how you "let them get on with their lives"? Sweden is a pretty liberal country with extensive laws against discrimination. One of the problems might be that some continue/get on with their former lives in small communities, but getting taken care of by the state.

Where immigrants fail it is often discrimination, segregation, or something like that. Where those things aren't a problem they typically do well enough.