Mainly Espionage............

Yardi

Chieftain
Joined
Jul 7, 2006
Messages
11
Location
A small Pangaea near Tenochtitlan
I have recently upgraded to bts (only played a few medium religious victories) and have a few questions as the bts manual and civ help seems very poor. I have also tried to find answers on the forums but with no luck. Most questions off the top of my head are around espionage.

1. How long does it take a space ship to reach AC after it is launched (assuming you have fully built it). Does this change depending on your level or other variables?

2. I have not really used bts espionage but am playing my first emperor game and while doing well (joint top with two others and Monty as my Vassal) think i have ignored espionage which may come back to bite (as a few other Civs seems to have gained a four tech edge over me in as many turns - just post lib, which I even got first!). I have the following questions.

a) Where the civs are listed in the bottom right against some civs is the head and shoulders of what looks like a criminal. What does this mean (is it that you are loosing the es points race against this country)?

b) When you go into the espionage screen it has a percentage against each county. Am i right in thinking that if it is higher than 100% they have more points than you, so as low a number as poss s best? If this is right and it says 120% does this mean that the cost of a mission etc against that country will be 20% higher than the base cost?

c) I have developed a few spies and sent them to other countries however when they cross the border they are captured immediately. Why? Do they have a line of spies? Passive missions? If they have done a passive mission to stop spies entering their border how can you ever send them in? I used to use spies to stop last unit spaceship production in vanilla and warlord, if you cant get spies in how do you halt the space ship?

d) When a civ does a passive mission to stop all spies entering their borders does this mean they immediately capture all existing spies within their borders. How long does this last?

e) Is it generally best to target all your spy points toward one or two countries? If you spread thin, like specialists or wonder building in cities, you must get minimal return?

f) There seem to be no limit on spies? Do most people have a large number all over the world?

g) Can spies be captured when not performing a missions.

h) Do the ep required to steel techs change as the techs require more research. Assuming a level ep playing field with an ai civ how much cheeper is it ep that just normal research. Is there also a percentage chance that an attemp to steal will be unsuccessful?

i) Does having a spy sitting in a city for a while lower the cost of mission?

j) Once you perform a mission do you loose those ep. Would this then leave you at a big ep disadvantage to that civ. for example you may be at 100% but having lost those ep due to a mission it increases to 110%?

k) I have noticed you can only see demographics now if you have enough ep. Is this relative to the other Civ or is it just in total - as I am sure i have noticed info I could see has disappeared. If you spend ep on a mission may your visibility of the other civ then decline?

l) Does it always tell you when a tech is stollen?

As you can see I a little confused. But I think this is more down to the poor manual, the van and warlords manuals were much better.

3. Main Interface.
Is there any explanation for what the main screen now shows? I think i understand most of it but where the civ names I am not entirely clear about all the info. I understand number of cities, relative strenght, open boarders but not all.

4. Can a civ declare war on you if they are friendly? At what point do they always have to trade?

5. When the AP make civs stop trading with another can they still trade techs?

6. Is there a certian level of +ve towards you that once reached means the civ has to vote for you in a religous victory. I have noticed that you never know f a civ will vote for you unless they vassel.

Thanks in advance and I havent even setup a corporation...... :crazyeye:
 
I expect you are playing with the BUG mod. All the extra info it shows is, of course, nowhere in the regular BtS manual. This is the source of the extra info on the scoreboard, and many other things.

Here's some info for the first couple of questions:

1) It depends on game speed. It is 10 turns on standard, and probably 15 on epic and 30 on marathon.

2a) There are two things that you could be talking about.

The reddish guy (I think it's just a red shirt or coat that he's wearing) that shows up in the scoreboard towards the right side means you are their worst enemy (you can confirm this by hovering over their name in the scoreboard - the pop-up should say that you are their worst enemy down at the bottom in red letters). The same symbol shows up on the Glance tab of the foreign advisor to indicate the same thing.

Alternatively, the black square with red circle with the spy with hat and trench coat with collar turned up in it (same symbol as for espionage points, actually) means you have more espionage points applied to them than they do to you - so you are currently winning the espionage point contest with them.
 
I used to use spies to stop last unit spaceship production in vanilla and warlord
There were no spies in vanilla.
 
There were. They required Scotland Yard (a national wonder no one built) and they were invisible.
Ok, there were spies, not as we know them now though. No where near as useful, only the city with Scotland Yard could build them, and there was no EP system.
They required Scotland Yard (a national wonder no one built)
And yeah, no one used them.
 
The hof mod, BUFFY, incorporates the BUG mod (and BULL too, I think). It adds a lot of information to the scoreboard, and other places. Somewhere there may be documentation for what it all is, maybe. There is a bunch of info at the BUG Wiki, although it may not be up to date or complete.

I knew you were using some form of it just from the things you mentioned that are in the scoreboard, like the strength ratio - there is no such thing in regular unmoded BtS's scoreboard.
 
Thanks link is great, explains lots of odds and sods.

Any chance of a bit of help on any of the other questions?

Addressing a few of your points:

Passive mission counter intelligence increases the odds of stopping enemy spies from completing their active missions. It does not make it a 100% block.

Unless you are generating a huge amount of EP, it is usually better to concentrate your points against those AIs that you consider to be the greatest threat, target, or competition. OTOH, I always try to maintain some EP against every AI that is nearby. I do rebalance the distribution of the EP periodically, depending on my current assessment of the various AIs and how much they seem to be using EPs against me.

Leaving a spy sitting in a target city for several turns decreases the cost of the mission. OTOH, it also increases the odds of getting caught, so it is a trade off.

The number of EP that are needed to see the demographics is specific for each AI. Highlight the AI in the Espionage screen and the list of missions on the right will show what the cost is for that AI for passive missions. You will also see a list of the AIs cities that you know about. Highlighting one of them will show the cost of the active missions against that city.

The number shown next to each AI in the Espionage screen is your current EP score against that AI. If you highlight the AI on the scoreboard in the lower right corner of the main screen, you will see (among other things) a ratio of the EPs between you and that AI. If you compare that with the number in the Espionage screen, you can tell which one is yours and which one is theirs. Since you are using a form of BUG, that ratio can be reversed, ie You/AI or AI/You, at your choice in the BUG options screens.

Once spies come along, I will put one in each city when other priorities allow, since some of the AIs are real big on poisoning your water all the time. Having a spy in the city raises the odds that you will foil them. Having a spy and the passive counterintelligence mission current against that AI almost but not entirely guarantees that you will foil them and catch their spy.

I don't use much in the way of active missions, so I can't help on those questions.
 
4. Can a civ declare war on you if they are friendly? At what point do they always have to trade?

6. Is there a certian level of +ve towards you that once reached means the civ has to vote for you in a religous victory. I have noticed that you never know f a civ will vote for you unless they vassel.

These are both tricky questions but the minimalist answers follow.

4) There are cases where an AI will declare war on you at friendly. This involves hidden diplo modifiers (which with BUG you can see, such as first impression negatives) and vassal diplo mechanics, averages your relationship with them AND your vassals with them, so while you might be friendly your vassal is annoyed thus the AI doesn't regard you as friendly... Beyond those there is at least 1 AI that will plot at friendly and several who can be bribed into war against you at friendly. There is a spreadsheet around here somewhere detailing each AI's willingness to war. And its Friendly and they'll always trade.

6) Much like the mechanics above, hidden modifiers and vassals can mess this up, which is why it seems unpredictable, but there is a hard line you need to get them to.
 
f) There seem to be no limit on spies? Do most people have a large number all over the world?--- They cost upkeep so no limit as long as you can afford them

g) Can spies be captured when not performing a missions. --- Yes

h) Do the ep required to steel techs change as the techs require more research. Assuming a level ep playing field with an ai civ how much cheeper is it ep that just normal research. Is there also a percentage chance that an attemp to steal will be unsuccessful? --- I believe you need somewhere near as many ep points as beakers required to reserch the tech

i) Does having a spy sitting in a city for a while lower the cost of mission? -- yes upto 50% if he sits for 5 turns

j) Once you perform a mission do you loose those ep. Would this then leave you at a big ep disadvantage to that civ. for example you may be at 100% but having lost those ep due to a mission it increases to 110%? - yes you lose the points, not sure how it effects the other

k) I have noticed you can only see demographics now if you have enough ep. Is this relative to the other Civ or is it just in total - as I am sure i have noticed info I could see has disappeared. If you spend ep on a mission may your visibility of the other civ then decline? - yes check the boxes in the ep screen - it tells exactly how many points are required

l) Does it always tell you when a tech is stollen? - Yes at the top of screen - if you have a lot of info scrolling by you may miss it

4. Can a civ declare war on you if they are friendly? At what point do they always have to trade? - They wont declare at Friendly but it varies at pleased - see
HTML:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=345910

5. When the AP make civs stop trading with another can they still trade techs? - I think so ---- the stop trading means no open borders, and no per turn stuff

I generally try to pick the most advanced civ as early as possible and focus all my points against him, then move a spy in so its ready to steal once its reaches 50%. Actually a couple of spies in case of failure of one. Late game I try to build all ep buildings in every city, the AI will decimate your infrastructure otherwise and it will allow you to build up enough points to steal techs or destroy spaceship parts if necessary.
 
Great thread. I'm still having a little bit of comprehension issue though. When I go in the EP screen, I have the "weight" button. What does this thing actually do? Am I moving around the overall points allocation to a certain Civ by using this, or am I changing my ratio to his? Sorry if this sounds stupid, I think the espionage side of BtS was a major improvement I'm just trying to get my mind wrapped around how to use it. Thanks
 
It is the weight of that civ in your allocation of your ep. The amount that each gets is based on its weight divided by the sum of the weights.

All zero is the same as all 1 (or, really, all set to any number).

Example: there are 3 other civs and you set the weights to 1, 1, and 2. The sum of the weights is 4. Therefor the first one will get 1/4, the second one 1/4, and the third one 2/4 of your ep produced each turn.

When the points produced are not evenly divisible by the sum of the weights (and it rarely is) then it appears to work out that the highest weighted ones tend to get most of the excess and the earlier ones on the list get the extra points among those that have the same weight. If you were producing 5ep/turn then in the above example the extra point would probably go to the one with the weight of 2, so they'd get 1, 1, and 3 ep per turn. If you were producing 6 then it might be 2, 1, 3, but it might not. (I say "probably" and "might" since I don't know exactly how it does this.)

In the early game I rarely worry about it. At some point I start reviewing it periodically and often end up adjusting it so that most of them have a weight of 2, those that I am well ahead of in points or that have good attitudes towards me are sometimes dropped to 1, and those that have bad attitudes (especially when at war with me) are often bumped up to 3 or 4 and sometimes higher. Anybody that is seriously outproducing me in points usually gets bumped up in weight by an extra 1 or 2 too.
 
I really only use EP to cause a city to revolt during an invasion. Sometimes, if I have a lot of EP left over and the civ is just about finished, I try to steal their treasury. In rare situations, I will try to poison water or foment unhappiness, depending on issues happening during or after a war.

Late game, with SPI or the Cristo Redentor (whatever its name is), you can really mess up opponents civics/religions with spies. A full blown Montezuma war, suddenly placed into pacifism, can cause many of his units to strike and wear down his economy.

But if you have plenty of spies, waiting and stealing techs is something I will try. For the cost of 1 or two spies to reduce the EP needed to steal a good tech, it is worth it.
 
Thanks for all the advice.

From my limited experience all I would say to anyone new to espionage, two words 'Great Wall'.

Not only does it give you the espionage lead for the rest of the game without too much further effort - Imbed first GS and SY the second, but it also keeps out all the barbs meaning no need to build an army till you need one while the other civs get battered, . Must be great for cultural games.

Had never built it in Warlords but it is truly a great wondrous wall in BTS
 
Sometimes I prefer to steal cheap out of date techs instead of trading for them. I usually don't get archery, but it can be stolen for about 150 EP on normal speed (after a turn or two of waiting). No wasted turns learning it, and no giving the AI easy trades.

The great wall is good if you have stone/IND. But it can be a pain to build if you don't have stone/IND. Plus an early great spy can net you alot of cheap techs early on.

Much better to infiltrate an early spy in your main rival, and steal his techs than to settle in your city. If you don't have a main rival, then settle in your own city.
 
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