Making Civ less "deterministic"

Naokaukodem

Millenary King
Joined
Aug 8, 2003
Messages
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Now, Civ has always been about the accumulation of science beakers in order to have techs, the accumulation of food in order to have population, etc. making everything pretty much linear, deterministic and snowballing.

I think that this philosophy is hindering greatly how new can a new Civ be.

I have always wanted, in most of my ideas, something less predictable. For example, cities grow from the year 4000 BC to the end of the game, their sizes depending generally from the length of your game or how did you managed population, production or gold, more generally. But it's reasonable to say that their size never differ from a certain range if everything gone well. (not being conquered, etc.)

What I would like, is having the possibility to have big size cities as soon as antiquity for example, and a variation of city sizes according to time, not the same cities being always the biggest. Also, it should be pretty fast, in the time span of Civ, to recover from a city razing.

All those elements would be possible only if we make population less dependent on direct food, and make it random, at least apparently, or make it work according to new schemes of simulation like migration, fertility, exodes, wars, attractiveness etc.

In the same way, science. In Civ5, one pop = 1 science beaker, it determines in a too linear way the power of a given Civ in science, making the "biggest not always the best" untrue throughout History, which have been in fact true, and tend to push strategies towards expansion and conquest at all costs, which is still a problem in Civ5 in spite of the global happiness system that is so annoying.

Not only it hits realism (and everything that results from this), but it also drives a way of playing that is repetitive. Not to mention the victories that are automatically considered things very long to achieve (and sometimes even boring !), nor the whole limiting systems like corruption, city maintenance or global happiness that all failed to date in a way or another.

Therefore, I say that it's about time to find other ways, less linear, to determine such elements. Unfortunately, I fail to see such systems, that's why I appeal to you fellow civers :

HOW COULD WE MAKE CIV LESS "DETERMINISTIC" ?
 
I suggest (again):

Getting rid of Tech tree! Introducing unknown results of scientific research (until your wise men/scientists discover them).
All you can do is select the general Scientific Genre you wish to pursue, for example:
Militaristic ( Foot Unit-Defensive, Aerial-Bombardment, etc), Governmental, Social, Economic, Growth/Expansion, and others, from a list of choices you are given at the start of each Research Cycle.

Getting rid of Hammers:
Change this General Production Unit to something more realistic. Each city is different, it's city radius brings in different resources, and different amounts of them. Let the cities you found determine your choices of what you want to produce there, what goods to export and import.

I could go on, but my ideas could crumble the foundations of the game, thus being unimplementable for the designers.
 
Getting rid of Tech tree! Introducing unknown results of scientific research (until your wise men/scientists discover them).
All you can do is select the general Scientific Genre you wish to pursue, for example:
Militaristic ( Foot Unit-Defensive, Aerial-Bombardment, etc), Governmental, Social, Economic, Growth/Expansion, and others, from a list of choices you are given at the start of each Research Cycle.

Basically Civ2 tried it already by not displaying the tech tree (although it existed) and making disappear some tech choices from time to time randomly. But nevertheless the way i'm turning it, I always end up to think that displaying the tech tree, as long as techs are linked in an immuable way, is a lot better for convenience purpose, because without that, one would have anyway to make its own tech tree by hands, which isn't the top of handfulness.

So, if a tech tree exists, it's better to display it. You can always grey out randomly some techs, but then it seems like empeding you with random things rather than giving you choices. And to be honest, the tech requirements in Civ5 for example are different from map to map, difficulty level and so on, so it could be really empeding objectively.

Now you could make techs totally random, but wouldn't it be totally based on luck ? Even you mentionned dividing the techs by genre, but we would also have to divide them by era, and finally we wouldn't have so many variations as we would get techs handful by handful chronologically and thematically.

Also, techs are interconnected, and it would be weird to have stealth bombers and plows in farms, it wouldn't be "alternate History" anymore, more "silly/troll History".

I wouldn't change the tech tree, but rather the way we get techs.

Getting rid of Hammers:
Change this General Production Unit to something more realistic. Each city is different, it's city radius brings in different resources, and different amounts of them. Let the cities you found determine your choices of what you want to produce there, what goods to export and import.

The thing is : to what exactly ? Time ? Influence ?
 
It has to be fairly deterministic because the players in each game are competing with each other. Giving say Russia a huge starting city and France a tiny starting city, or whatever, sounds like it would result in a quick win for Russia unless city size was essentially a meaningless thing.

Re. hammers I can't think of anything better to denote a unit of ability to build stuff if the game is going to have a general abstraction for that. Maybe bricks? But then you'd need something else to indicate military hardware production power as distinct from city infrastructure. Hammers as a tool get used for pretty much all kinds of building. Screwdrivers, saws, welding torches? Too modern to apply in ancient times I think! Stone hammers are pretty ancient and we still use metal ones now. Also a hammer's a very distinct and recognizable visual icon.

Re. repetitive play and being forced to always expand, maybe try Civ 4 which has other ways to develop an empire, each equally strong and capable of beating the rest!
 
It has to be fairly deterministic because the players in each game are competing with each other. Giving say Russia a huge starting city and France a tiny starting city, or whatever, sounds like it would result in a quick win for Russia unless city size was essentially a meaningless thing.

That's exactly what I'm going along. In reality, Rome started with a tiny city when they were still surrounded by (unlike in Civ5 and Civ in general) an infinite number of powerfull cities. They started nothing a grew huge. Call it determination, chance or real insight (a little like the player in Civ abuses rough mechanics while AIs are more entitled in their roles), but we can see that it's totally unachievable in Civ. that's what i would like to change a little bit. (of course, note that I said "deterministic", with quotation marks, because i believe that the opposite of determinism is pure randomness which is not more enviable)

Re. hammers I can't think of anything better to denote a unit of ability to build stuff if the game is going to have a general abstraction for that. Maybe bricks? But then you'd need something else to indicate military hardware production power as distinct from city infrastructure. Hammers as a tool get used for pretty much all kinds of building. Screwdrivers, saws, welding torches? Too modern to apply in ancient times I think! Stone hammers are pretty ancient and we still use metal ones now. Also a hammer's a very distinct and recognizable visual icon.

I can be wrong, but I think that he meant getting rid of hammers or any kind of replacement

Re. repetitive play and being forced to always expand, maybe try Civ 4 which has other ways to develop an empire, each equally strong and capable of beating the rest!

Since mechanics in Civ4 were still highly "deterministic", it suffered the same problems for an experienced player.
 
I suggest (again):

Getting rid of Hammers:
Change this General Production Unit to something more realistic. Each city is different, it's city radius brings in different resources, and different amounts of them. Let the cities you found determine your choices of what you want to produce there, what goods to export and import.

Have you ever played Colonization? It has lot of different resources, and I think the resource system is more realistic there.

But, I think for Sid Meier's Civ series the Food/Production/Gold(or Commerce) system is almost holy trinity. Change it too much and it really isn't the Civ anymore.
 
Now, Civ has always been about the accumulation of science beakers in order to have techs, the accumulation of food in order to have population, etc. making everything pretty much linear, deterministic and snowballing.

I think that this philosophy is hindering greatly how new can a new Civ be.

I have always wanted, in most of my ideas, something less predictable. For example, cities grow from the year 4000 BC to the end of the game, their sizes depending generally from the length of your game or how did you managed population, production or gold, more generally. But it's reasonable to say that their size never differ from a certain range if everything gone well. (not being conquered, etc.)

What I would like, is having the possibility to have big size cities as soon as antiquity for example, and a variation of city sizes according to time, not the same cities being always the biggest. Also, it should be pretty fast, in the time span of Civ, to recover from a city razing.

All those elements would be possible only if we make population less dependent on direct food, and make it random, at least apparently, or make it work according to new schemes of simulation like migration, fertility, exodes, wars, attractiveness etc.

In the same way, science. In Civ5, one pop = 1 science beaker, it determines in a too linear way the power of a given Civ in science, making the "biggest not always the best" untrue throughout History, which have been in fact true, and tend to push strategies towards expansion and conquest at all costs, which is still a problem in Civ5 in spite of the global happiness system that is so annoying.

Not only it hits realism (and everything that results from this), but it also drives a way of playing that is repetitive. Not to mention the victories that are automatically considered things very long to achieve (and sometimes even boring !), nor the whole limiting systems like corruption, city maintenance or global happiness that all failed to date in a way or another.

Therefore, I say that it's about time to find other ways, less linear, to determine such elements. Unfortunately, I fail to see such systems, that's why I appeal to you fellow civers :

HOW COULD WE MAKE CIV LESS "DETERMINISTIC" ?

I like to think that Civ players are divided into "Chess" players and "Simulation" players. Chess players want to play a Game and optimize and micromanage everything they can. Simulation players like to think Civ as somekind of simulation of alternative histories. I think you are more like simulation type of player? (Myself I enjoy both playing styles.)

I guess you'd like to see that cities rise and fall and rise again, and civilizations too?
I think there would be many ways to achieve this. Some ideas:

  • Make population growth not be only determined by food surplus. Instead add factors like natural growth, disease, living standards, immigration, etc.
  • Let players to "stretch" things, taking risks of disasters. For example: Unhappiness wouldn't instantly halt the city growth and stop the citizens to do the work. Instead having unhappiness would raise the risk of catastrophes like civil disorders, riots and even anarchy. To do well in game, player would need to stretch the limits of his/her empire a little bit, but also accept a risk of problems arising from stretching. Add some amount domino effects and you have the system of rise and fall.
  • Also, for having big cities a possibility to collapse, the trade routes should play big role. If food supplies are cut off, the population will start starving and immigrate to other cities. Again, this is an example of stretching. If you want to be sure not to see city starve don't add food supply trade routes to it. ( If I remember correctly, Civ 5 has some kind of food supply system, but not sure if cities do ever really collapse there.)
 
Truly alternative histories would require the designers to flex some muscles in the domain of anthropology where.... the knowledge just doesn't exist, after a point.

Like, imagine if Humans just figured out a republic quicker because they tried really hard (in place of other developments). How the frick could anyone know how to write what happens at that point?
This is what I think the "take away the tech tree" notion becomes.


Less determinism... well, you could make barbarians raging as the default, ending whole games because you didn't make that 8th archer in paranoia before trying to improve a tile.
---
Having a tech tree, random research? Is a thing. SMAC sorta was fair with that, it's possible. Another thing could be Great People theory, where literally only a Great Thinker can discover a tech, but that's just reframing the mechanism not creating nondeterminism, because now you're just triggering the GP rather than getting beakers; you gotta work out where that number comes from.


I must say, I do not like nondeterminism , for 4X, but neither for Civ's brand identity in particular, to this extent (and there's no point arguing that here)... but, taking the question of the thread at its face, it would be a neat experiment to work out the math to have a game of drastic ambition, rises and falls as Fullerene says. Work it out so that in the macro, taking the risk of horrible revolt and dissolution is necessary to keep becoming great, not to lose out to someone who does.

I still see two core problems to solve with Civ no matter what your ideals are.

One, the rival problem. Your only opposition are your rivals, who play the same as you, and the barbs. You know that every rival is a true threat to your destruction and you can attack and harry them, and also, you know they can do whatever it is you're doing right. I mean this in contrast to , say, the Rome case. Rome was small. It became gargantuan. Is it not certain this was possible because everybody who could have quashed Rome had bigger fish to fry - each other? And is it not also at least, a little bit, owed to some irrationality and maybe racism? Discounting an upstart nation because you think in those terms, because your political constituency thinks in those terms, not in terms of "The Rome player is getting bigger. They -will- eventually become a rival." ?

Two, the conquest fairness problem. You let players attack each other. And you have to allow both fights for land rights and chastisement, and fights for existence. You must allow players to check each other with these tools, and to express these elements (*this isn't a simulationist or gameist issue but rather an artistic one of the worth of the game as an artifact). But you also have your war vs. peace development, industry being more profitable.

So how to evade, at all, that you will then have the situation of a player who is hindered merely because he contends with an irrational buffoon who attacks where he cannot win? You war and war, and now you're both irrelevant.
So in formal terms, the issue is: If you did nothing wrong, you shouldn't lose. Neighbouring a warmad lunatic is nothing you did. Something you didn't do isn't something you did wrong. So neighbouring someone who wars irrationally must not imply that you lose. So there is some correct move for when your neighbour wars irrationally.

Your correct move cannot be to destroy him, by hypothesis and symmetry. But you can't compel him to play well. Your option cannot be the peaceful development the other player so irrationally fears, because then it is -literally- not right to war, so just... start the game in a later era by default, why don't you.
By process of elimination, the game design must envelop a third alternative, not military buildup nor industry, but something to counter a stalemate, which in turn must not dominate either other option. (And of course, it should be hard to accomplish, so that stalemates sometimes happen as an indication of skill or lack, which -would- justify players elsewhere winning.... except it has to not be harder than it is to irrationally benefit from CivCity-er neighbours.)
You have to turn a profit from enduring the irrational attack; punishing the other guy's mistake is not enough. That's fine and fair - something easier than successfully working out federated peace, but less profitable than such; cost and reward are balanced there. But measuring "irrational war"? Oogh. My best guess is reverse war-weariness. That's all I've come up with in like 100 hours of thinking about it.


These core difficulties unresolved, a real Rise and Fall situation could never be fair or fun in anyone's palate, even far from the strategy and competitive player, I think.
 
Well, a good place to start would be to rework how damage is calculated. Civ5 is incredibly deterministic when it comes to dealt damage: the randomness factor usually represents about +/-10%. For comparison, a single standard deviation for a normal distribution represents +/-34%. Sure, you may not necessarily want spearmen beating tanks, but on the other hand, Riflemen almost always beating Musketmen is boring.

"Minor" AI players might be one of the easiest way to make games a lot less deterministic. Some of the most hilarious and unexpected games of CK2 are due to the AI characters having some sort of weird interactions that you've never seen before and that you're probably never going to see again. It's not necessarily something everyone might like: taking control away from the player goes against one of Sid Meier's fundamental Civilization design principles, even if it would make the game more challenging, unpredictable, less boardgame-like, and possibly enjoyable.
 
Seems like if it's a game where any of the players is playing to win then it has to be deterministic and starting situations must be at least somewhat fair. If a player wants to just enjoy the experience and watch history evolve, then that's fine but all players must agree that's what they're all doing. For single-player civ the AIs would also need a setting so they "play for fun". Civ 4 has an "always peace" option, don't know about 5. Then, with that in place, you could add any other stuff like randomised starting city size etc. and it would be fine. Actually I can see that could be quite an entertaining sandbox-type game :D Personally I'm more of a play-to-win kind of player though and I like planning out my empire - I want it to work as expected!
 
I think you need to split the science from the culture techs.

Have two "tech trees" one for beakers and one for culture with some techs in both (like Philosophy).
 
I think you need to split the science from the culture techs.

Have two "tech trees" one for beakers and one for culture with some techs in both (like Philosophy).
This sounds a lot like the start of my social tech tree idea. Granted, it probably won't help reduce game determinism, but it would make for more gameplay outcomes, so there would be more endstates that could be reached deterministically.

You also don't necessarily want/need common techs between the two trees: it overcomplicates the system and could open a whole set of loopholes. Plus it muddles the flavor of having one tech tree be for social/cultural advances (Philosophy, Civil Service, Theology, Scientific Method), and the other be for technical advances (Masonry, Gunpowder, Compass, Radio). Instead, if you want each tree to feed into progress into the other, you could have social techs like Philosophy unlock science buildings the same way science techs like Radio would unlock social tech buildings; early- and mid-game science buildings like Libraries and Universities would also generate social tech points. The Middle Ages would have a slowdown of science techs as tech costs scale faster than science per turn, but social tech progress would continue happening at a fast pace; once certain key social techs are researched, science yield per turn would start shooting up for Renaissance.
 
Truly alternative histories would require the designers to flex some muscles in the domain of anthropology where.... the knowledge just doesn't exist, after a point.

It's what I've always deplored in History books : History is basically saying what happened, not understanding things. I'm pretty sure we can find reasons to what happened, systems, phenomena, etc... I'd rather think there is a scientific branch which is basically that, but i don't know its name unfortunately.

Like, imagine if Humans just figured out a republic quicker because they tried really hard (in place of other developments). How the frick could anyone know how to write what happens at

that point? This is what I think the "take away the tech tree" notion becomes.

Actually there were a republic earlier, it's called greek democracy, and more generally greek golden age. Did you know that someone already designed the plans of a steam machine back then ?

I think the thing that prevented him to realize it is that technics were not mature enough.

There is some logical evolution of technics, that I talked about in a topic here : mostly, technics improve, or so is told. For example, you can't create an object that requires a 5000°C temperature with two tree branches alone : you have to elaborate your technic. Like building a furnace that can resist the heat. Most of the time, those improvements would require a global understanding of physics, which is never reach even today, so those improvements are made by guess, try and fail. That's why they take so much time and seem so much random - which I think they are.

However, there can be inventions that truly require some understanding, even though they need intuition also. If somebody would have tried to build a battery in antiquity, without any understanding of physics, he would have been considered totally mad. And yet ! The guy who discovered electricity and artificial light should have look like totally crazy, even for kinfolk, wrapping copper wires like crazy. (we can't do it by accident in prehistorical eras for example, we NEED some basic understanding)

So technics are generally "nesting", either with science or another technic. That's why techs in Civ can't be totally random. However it would be interesting to try to analyze what depends of what, although I fear that science History is mainly a story of chance. We can for example perfectly imagine a war machine operator doing a miss move when charging his machine : there's a wire of metal somewhere, it breaks, it wraps around something, forms a circuits with another part, and *poosh* it shines. After, the operator is proceeding by elimination to see what parts are essential to the system. (removes random parts, and seeing if the light is still there) *poof* Edison. :D

But this example is imperfect : you need war machines. Can we imagine a situation where electricity is discovered by a Neanderthal ? Probably, although he would need to manipulate something. (invented something else or trying to invent something, which proves he is crazy or making the link between his direct needs and something that doesn't exist yet)

But such link would be hard to do in prehistory. I believe that it was possible because of a thought stream that stipulated that "magic" is physically possible in our world because it obeys to its rules. A non-magic magic. A wonder. Science.

All in all I believe that there's a general direction in technics, but that it is not so much technical. It's just mostly and highly probabilistic, a thing calling for another, and anthropological.

Less determinism... well, you could make barbarians raging as the default, ending whole games because you didn't make that 8th archer in paranoia before trying to improve a tile.
---
Having a tech tree, random research? Is a thing. SMAC sorta was fair with that, it's possible. Another thing could be Great People theory, where literally only a Great Thinker can discover a tech, but that's just reframing the mechanism not creating nondeterminism, because now you're just triggering the GP rather than getting beakers; you gotta work out where that number comes from.

Civ5 choosed to make it depend highly from number of people directly. That's a theory, that I thought out earlier myself. But i don't think it's realistically accurate. Especially, it makes bigger always better, whereas it can be true for "developped" countries, yet not all countries have been "developped" at the same time, and yet stays to be determined what is "developped", which is not counted in rough happiness for example, or then a precise concept of it (ideology), lefting behind other concepts yet the absence of concept (which is probably better, because happiness can't be conceptualized and comes from a various set of factors, perception included).

So a good system for science in Civ could be any so that science can fluctuate significantly despite the size of the civs. I would personnally add an ability for the player to make it fluctuate significantly and quickly, at will (example : Civ1/2/3/4 sliders) or step by step (example : building/rushing libraries).

I still see two core problems to solve with Civ no matter what your ideals are.

One, the rival problem. Your only opposition are your rivals, who play the same as you, and the barbs. You know that every rival is a true threat to your destruction and you can attack and harry them, and also, you know they can do whatever it is you're doing right. I mean this in contrast to , say, the Rome case. Rome was small. It became gargantuan. Is it not certain this was possible because everybody who could have quashed Rome had bigger fish to fry - each other? And is it not also at least, a little bit, owed to some irrationality and maybe racism? Discounting an upstart nation because you think in those terms, because your political constituency thinks in those terms, not in terms of "The Rome player is getting bigger. They -will- eventually become a rival." ?

Two, the conquest fairness problem. You let players attack each other. And you have to allow both fights for land rights and chastisement, and fights for existence. You must allow players to check each other with these tools, and to express these elements (*this isn't a simulationist or gameist issue but rather an artistic one of the worth of the game as an artifact). But you also have your war vs. peace development, industry being more profitable.

So how to evade, at all, that you will then have the situation of a player who is hindered merely because he contends with an irrational buffoon who attacks where he cannot win? You war and war, and now you're both irrelevant. So in formal terms, the issue is: If you did nothing wrong, you shouldn't lose. Neighbouring a warmad lunatic is nothing you did. Something you didn't do isn't something you did wrong. So neighbouring someone who wars irrationally must not imply that you lose. So there is some correct move for when your neighbour wars irrationally.

Your correct move cannot be to destroy him, by hypothesis and symmetry. But you can't compel him to play well. Your option cannot be the peaceful development the other player so irrationally fears, because then it is -literally- not right to war, so just... start the game in a later era by default, why don't you.
By process of elimination, the game design must envelop a third alternative, not military buildup nor industry, but something to counter a stalemate, which in turn must not dominate either other option. (And of course, it should be hard to accomplish, so that stalemates sometimes happen as an indication of skill or lack, which -would- justify players elsewhere winning.... except it has to not be harder than it is to irrationally benefit from CivCity-er neighbours.)
You have to turn a profit from enduring the irrational attack; punishing the other guy's mistake is not enough. That's fine and fair - something easier than successfully working out federated peace, but less profitable than such; cost and reward are balanced there. But measuring "irrational war"? Oogh. My best guess is reverse war-weariness. That's all I've come up with in like 100 hours of thinking about it.


These core difficulties unresolved, a real Rise and Fall situation could never be fair or fun in anyone's palate, even far from the strategy and competitive player, I think.

It's a rather odd way to turn out the problem.

I understand your first objection, Civ is a game with victory conditions and acts towards them that put the focus on enemies. But that's one of my main reproaches to Civ5 : everything seems so much gamey, there is a pre-set number of normal civs in each games, you encounter those civs rather early, trade with them, do wars, etc... it's like the U.N.O. has been set in -4000 BC, especially with the ridiculous and debatable "denounce" feature. So it's possible to temper this. civ5 is also a pretty much "streamlined" game, with some lack of features that could divert temporarily the player from his "military enemies". Ideally the game would marginally be about empire size/conquest. That would need (a lot) finest mechanics. Not sure it is the philosophy of the devs, only by seeing how a Civ5 late map is cluttered (with a lot and extremely simple elements, the complexity being "spread out") says long.

Now I don't see how "fighting against a fool" can be hindering. Vs AIs that never happens because they make peace quite easily. Vs players it can happen, but then you didn't choose well your game mates, or can convince them by chat that's it's better to stop war and maybe also ally. I'd rather think it's an episode from your playing that you didn't know how to deal with.
 
Now I don't see how "fighting against a fool" can be hindering. Vs AIs that never happens because they make peace quite easily. Vs players it can happen, but then you didn't choose well your game mates, or can convince them by chat that's it's better to stop war and maybe also ally. I'd rather think it's an episode from your playing that you didn't know how to deal with.

No. If you're playing against someone who thinks they can win a war, but they actually can't, then when they fight and fail to beat you, you both get dragged down, and can lose from that alone. That's what I meant.

Your reference to 'choosing game mates' it's very unsettling, because it implies you're in a very different headspace from this, and elaborating my position I'm not sure if I"m a good enough presenter to do it.

Balancing a game cannot depend on vetting competitors because that is beginning with throwing out the idea of competition entirely. When you're playing a competition, you don't choose your opponents. It's the competition that chooses its victor.

The winner is the player who can win given what -actually happened-. There is no higher measure of who is better than the player who won the game, and from that basis, you know that you cannot discard any opponent if you are actually breeding competition. You will play against him and win, or play against him and lose and then know he was better and you did something poor. Any player who dismisses an opponent has also dismissed their own competitor status.

The trouble is, that sometimes 'better' is not a stable measurement, because the skill that corresponds to the game (statistically, "skill" is "the factor that the game outcome loads on") is variant or random. How someone does on a given day of Survivor can sometimes depend on how much of a dick that mouthy host is going to be. But some games have extremely stable performances across time, where certain people can be assigned something said to be their skill, which remains fixed, and whose value can be 0.7 or more of the variance (r^2) in victory; the top 5s of tournaments shows the same class of people.

tl; dr, We are able to propose a skill value for the game competitors, which allows us to say the game is skilltesting, which allows us to say those players are skilled.


My being unable to convince someone war is bad is, .... well, it is -a- failing of a person, but it is widespread, and if you're ever being beaten to death you will on no occasion think "I should have been able to prove this was worthless aggression, we're both at fault."
All I'm saying is, for Civ to escape this hole which is crushing its stature as a competitive game, it needs to actually give the player a means to stop and punish wars. The fact is, the opponent can wage a war, he can do that, the game lets him, and as a Human being he is under no compulsion to bow to someone else's commands.

The fact he has the freedom to make war is something the game *must* respect. But the fact his futility upsets the other player's chances to even engage with the unfolding victory race while another player somewhere runs away, is not acceptable. That will, on its own, be the derision of "multiplayer games", which have so far in history never been competitively fair, but I do not see that as logically necessary, perhaps not for Civ which has many moving parts and can be reinvented to solve that.
 
What OP is trying to simulate is real life history, where cities rise and fall, productivity/science is more or less randomly directed to produce something that may or may not contribute to real life "win conditions". The thing is, the Romans didn't know they had to research Mathematics to get ballistas, and they don't know that to win a diplomatic victory, you need x votes in some world congress that doesn't exist yet, which you need to discover all civs for. There was no way for them to know how to win. Which is why no one's won yet, IRL.
 
No. If you're playing against someone who thinks they can win a war, but they actually can't, then when they fight and fail to beat you, you both get dragged down, and can lose from that alone. That's what I meant.

How do you want them to know if they can't beat you if they don't try it out ? :confused: And how can you know they can't beat you if they don't try you ? :confused:

I think it's not really about the fact that they can't beat you, it's rather about the fact that fighting each others weakens both parties, regarful of the other players who don't necessarily fight.

And that's a design issue long known with Civ series. The solution to that is playing 1vs1, or choosing, again, its game-mates, so that they are very well aware of this aspect of the simulation and act accordingly.

That said, doing so will make the game boring, without wars and finally be only a story of starting locations.

The only way to have exciting games is having players of different levels, eventhough this creates imbalance. So you have in every case to accept you can't win all the time, this being due to imbalance (the case your game-mates are random) or bad luck (the case your game-mates are choosen and top players like you). It's the way Civ is.

Of course it would be better to lose only in case of inferior play. But then, what would be the fun for players of lower level that are needed for exciting games ? If they can never win, then it's boring for them and they would disappear. The luck factor in games have always been for "family play", or to be "player friendly".

You lose, well, you lose, it's not a big deal. Isn't it ? No one is responsible of your bad spirit or your pride.
 
And that's a design issue long known with Civ series. The solution to that is playing 1vs1, or choosing, again, its game-mates, so that they are very well aware of this aspect of the simulation and act accordingly.

I respond to this statement with this:

How do you want them to know if they can't beat you if they don't try it out ? :confused: And how can you know they can't beat you if they don't try you ? :confused:

And I also agree with this statement sandwiched between them:

I think it's not really about the fact that they can't beat you, it's rather about the fact that fighting each others weakens both parties, regarful of the other players who don't necessarily fight.

Of course, I am quite confused what you're arguing now.


You lose, well, you lose, it's not a big deal. Isn't it ? No one is responsible of your bad spirit or your pride.

It's a meaningful loss for the title to accede to luck outcomes. A game that can decide things with skill draws big money and coverage from tournament and league competition with players who can be appropriately willing to put thrilling stakes on the game. Alas, there may be logical impossibilities that require either lucky outcomes, invisible game overs, or harsh finality... but I figure the later two are better.
But maybe you're right, and civ's brand should be a historical-theme with wins and losses, striking a balance with those three flaws. In the first case, players can't be proud of the accomplishment. In the second, games are swept many turns before they are over, and in the third, there is so little room to experience a game that settles the measurement precisely.

Invisible game overs are a clamorous pain of Civ V, but.. that only exists inside the pretense of Civ V being kinda sorta for competition. The official win screen matters only when you need to be playing for the objective recognition of the game... so a Civ in the eyes of your ideal, Naukokoderm Naukokadem Maokaukodem (how the fr* did an M get in there) Naokaukodem could lean heavily on a long , indulgent gameplay , in order to bring about the best game experience, taking its lumps in the "not able to outdo multiplayer luck" area.

What an odd game that might be... Grand Strategy built and fleshed out like a roleplaying game. :think:


"Harsh finality" is just a best term for something that probably defies succinct labelling, it just says that the game gets decided. But deciding that game can be something still rich for the time you put into it. There are no problems making the winner feel just as proud if not prouder for a decisive victory. For the players who lose, the requisites are that they have the chance to inspect the game to learn something from its outcome. And a short game can be very meaningful during its invested minutes; enjoyment is a condition of timelessness, so that is not a barrier at all.

We may be getting off-topic again, where even though this concerns "luck", it's not determinism in the sense for this thread at all - it's not about the game having predictability or unpredictability, which has room for "managed chaos" and quite deep mathematical design tools, but the issue of losing because of something in another player and not yourself.
 
How about adding natural disasters? Not like the random events in Civ 4, but have a second barbarian player with very rare but very powerful unique units that only last for a couple of turns, like hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, forest fires, and the like. Then add an option ("Wrath of God," lets say) that lets you choose whether disasters screw over everyone equally or whether they're more likely to hit players who are in the lead. Then maybe even bring back Global Warming as a way of making certain disasters happen more often once the industrial revolution starts up.
 
I respond to this statement with this:



And I also agree with this statement sandwiched between them:



Of course, I am quite confused what you're arguing now.

Horseshoe_Hermi, you are doing rhetoric as to prove you are right and i'm wrong, playing with sentences instead of expressing what you truly think.

I just don't think you can say that you know some guy can't beat you. However I agree that both guys weaken themselves with wars that lead nowhere. Hence the lack of taking risks in multiplayer, making it rather boring.

If any, we should encourage wars, not disencourage them. Your idea of reverse war weariness is a step in the right direction, although put as this, it wouldn't work.

I much more believe in the potential of switching points of view of the player, like ruling different entities in one single game, as the previous ones collapse. You could have a bucket to invest points, and if you have enough points in this bucket, you can switch entity. If you don't have in time (you can't precisely know when) enough points, then it's game over, or at least a type of game pretty far from the known civilization experience. You could rule a single person or family into a wider entity like civilizations or cities, with interface, things to do, coups, arrangements, deals, etc... and come back at the head of a country later. Of course this would be a totally new experience, but I think that it would be good as Civ series begins to go in round.

In every case, I strongly believe we should play a lot more with vassals. Becoming a vassal allows to lose, however continuing to play and working towards victory.

It's a meaningful loss for the title to accede to luck outcomes. A game that can decide things with skill draws big money and coverage from tournament and league competition with players who can be appropriately willing to put thrilling stakes on the game.

Do you see a lot of competition with Civ ? Civ is not designed for multiplayer. At all. Multiplayer is a totally different branch in term of Civ. That's why developers added a prompt when you went into Civ4 multiplayer. The experience is much more different, boring/demanding, in every case imperfect.


Alas, there may be logical impossibilities that require either lucky outcomes, invisible game overs, or harsh finality... but I figure the later two are better.
But maybe you're right, and civ's brand should be a historical-theme with wins and losses, striking a balance with those three flaws. In the first case, players can't be proud of the accomplishment. In the second, games are swept many turns before they are over, and in the third, there is so little room to experience a game that settles the measurement precisely.

Invisible game overs are a clamorous pain of Civ V, but.. that only exists inside the pretense of Civ V being kinda sorta for competition. The official win screen matters only when you need to be playing for the objective recognition of the game... so a Civ in the eyes of your ideal, Naukokoderm Naukokadem Maokaukodem (how the fr* did an M get in there) Naokaukodem could lean heavily on a long , indulgent gameplay , in order to bring about the best game experience, taking its lumps in the "not able to outdo multiplayer luck" area.

What an odd game that might be... Grand Strategy built and fleshed out like a roleplaying game. :think:


"Harsh finality" is just a best term for something that probably defies succinct labelling, it just says that the game gets decided. But deciding that game can be something still rich for the time you put into it. There are no problems making the winner feel just as proud if not prouder for a decisive victory. For the players who lose, the requisites are that they have the chance to inspect the game to learn something from its outcome. And a short game can be very meaningful during its invested minutes; enjoyment is a condition of timelessness, so that is not a barrier at all.

We may be getting off-topic again, where even though this concerns "luck", it's not determinism in the sense for this thread at all - it's not about the game having predictability or unpredictability, which has room for "managed chaos" and quite deep mathematical design tools, but the issue of losing because of something in another player and not yourself.

Everything you say seems to be tied to this "other player screwing your game" bit. I still really think it's your particular experience. As I said, it should not be too much complicated to become allied instead of enemies. Diplomacy can play strong roles in multiplayer, stronger (a lot) than in single player, at the point when it can even become a problem. (see the vague rule of "FFA", "free for all", which tends to forbid alliances, even though free for all means more everydody can do what they please, by opposition to pre-set alliances) But I myself find hard to find really when and where an alliance is still necessary. Partly because players feelings enter in count.

In addition to go deeper in the vassal realms, we should also look for allied wins.
 
I'd rather focus on shoring up the Barbarian units we got. It would be nice if there were a measure that the game outright told you: "You are safe from barbarians" vs. "You have unprotected lands that barbarians can raid, build a garrison". It would check if you staff a garrison of sufficient might within your borders of each city and deterministically you would be attacked if and only if you don't heed the warning. Then the barbarians are part of the game but not random, and if they're carefully carefully tuned, it could possibly be correct to run light defense for REXP or whatever you're doing with your hammers.
This would go along with giving barbs their own distinct AI which tries to pillage and capture units, and avoids any engagement which it would individually lose.

This works well with the spawning in fog notion, and not so well with the coming from camps idea. Camps appearing at the times when barbarian cities appeared in Civ IV, as a consequence of a long and repeating raid sequence, would allow the penalty from a lacking garrison to accumulate. Or maybe some alternative.

But in addition to barbs you could have a next tier of revolutionaries or pirates or something, units that appear under the conditions that would cause instability in versions of civ that simulate that sort of thing. I'm itrigued just by the design of the game where as you develop along, there's a menace that grows with you - the resentment of the excluded, whoever they are. They deterministically appear and drive down rapid social development. So in pacing they are a negative feedback effect, and also they help to fill up the map and fill up time in a "hugfest". In later later eras they would go away, though. Maybe you could have revolutionaries, international fugitives, and terrorists, but the safer bet for a base game would be the quantified stability measure. .... the same system as all along (civ V happiness only without the SUCK), but in its Final Form, so to speak, much variety in appeasing it but difficult challenge for any method, and a slope of failure that's punishing but not arresting.

Horseshoe_Hermi, you are doing rhetoric as to prove you are right and i'm wrong, playing with sentences instead of expressing what you truly think.
I never do that.
And I"m not referring to my multiplayer experience. Those things did not happen to me. But they happen.

Hugfests are not a problem while co-operative victory does not exist. Assuming reverse war weariness somehow existed, your problem is now development in isolation, which could be helped out by the very things that make hugfests hugely productive, since you have no danger and they have some; or by some more complex thing like AI civs appearing on the map (or City-States being more potential for abuse/exploitation/assimilation), I dunno.

But certainly, if you're proposing the competitive ideal is not to aim for - which I have some sympathy for, I know what is attractive about that idea, I have and do waffle on which one I think I want civ to be for me - then this is no problem just provided the isolated civ gets to do things that isolated civs have done and we get to play that alternate history game / lens of society game / roleplaying game or whatever. We can look at the meeting of an old and new world happening in a fiction in that session. That's a fun experience. What's wrong with the hugfest even guaranteeing that player loses 80% of the time? We play to the end and everybody's a good sport if they're a good sport (derp) and games end with a loss but we keep playing the game of games (inviting each other to playing another game) and it's a meaningful pastime.
 
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