Making late game improvements (windmills, watermills, lumberthingies) better

I think this may weaken Arete overall. I'd like to have Arete be competitive in the late game running mostly mines since it's more in theme with RoK. Maybe increase the mine bonus for that civic to +2 :hammers:?

Yeah, thats possible. First I want to get the base straightened out, then we can work out the civ/civic specifics.
 
Yeah, thats possible. First I want to get the base straightened out, then we can work out the civ/civic specifics.

Does that mean there's a chance something will be done with pacifism?
 
Does that mean there's a chance something will be done with pacifism?

A little off topic, but yes. Thats the stage we are in documentation/ai/balance (or as blackmantle said "overreacting to community comments").
 
Heres my take on Lumbermills. When built on a forest they should also add +1 hammers to all surrounding forest tiles or for every forest tile touching it, the lumbermill gets +1 production. So the more forest you maintain the more production your lumbermill can use if you don't clear cut. This will also mean people will build them on the outskirts of their city work tiles.

Another Idea for Lumbermills, is that when built they should add a trade resource. Wood. Or have a chance at spawning it at least. This way you can ship some wood (hammers) to those who need it. I think they are doable ideas with some tweaking. Let me know what you think.

EDIT

Actually maybe even a different idea, is that lumbermills chop down forests over a long period of time, providing a large bonus to production. After X amount of turns, the forest and lumbermill are destroyed.
 
I think it's important enough to post for a third time. The Lumber Mill boost will require a boost to hammers from cutting the forests. Not the base perhaps, but increased just like in BtS by a tech (Math, Engineering?).

This might require you to keep replanted forests from giving almost nothing as you cut them to cut down on exploit risk. (Might already be something like that in the game?)
 
Heres my take on Lumbermills. When built on a forest they should also add +1 hammers to all surrounding forest tiles or for every forest tile touching it, the lumbermill gets +1 production. So the more forest you maintain the more production your lumbermill can use if you don't clear cut. This will also mean people will build them on the outskirts of their city work tiles.

Another Idea for Lumbermills, is that when built they should add a trade resource. Wood. Or have a chance at spawning it at least. This way you can ship some wood (hammers) to those who need it. I think they are doable ideas with some tweaking. Let me know what you think.

EDIT

Actually maybe even a different idea, is that lumbermills chop down forests over a long period of time, providing a large bonus to production. After X amount of turns, the forest and lumbermill are destroyed.

I dont like the wood idea.

For the others Im not eager to implement new features to address balance issues. Especially those that require AI changes. Its not that we wont ever add new features for this kind of stuff, but our first step would be in balancing them with the features we have.
 
I dont like the wood idea.

For the others Im not eager to implement new features to address balance issues. Especially those that require AI changes. Its not that we wont ever add new features for this kind of stuff, but our first step would be in balancing them with the features we have.

Undestood and makes sense. Adding new features usually means fixing those features later.
 
still dislike it very much. since i try to improve cities as much as possible, i probably end up using fol priests alot, alot of micromanagement, etc etc...

grassland/forest/lumbermill now 1 food / 4 hammer

grassland / mine 1 food / 4 hammer with gunpower and the dwarven religion (dont know enligsh word)

nd gunpowder is pretty late compared to ironworking...

and chance to discover a resource is so low i rather take the health bonus from trees.


dont get me wrong: i appreciate this mod very much, will definetly keep playing it, and dont want to sound unthankfull... but why nerv mines instead of fixing bananas, cotton etc...
 
Again, with what you laid out, i assure you, go with axing the bonus to mines on gunpowder. Much less damage done.

Now at least i can understand where the idea came from.
But you obviously didn't pay much attention to the flow of a real game. + Asking the community prior to the change (like you did with magic and to a far smaller extent in importance chariots) would have been vastly more helpful for even your own resources.

Mines with +2 Hammers are not! far to strong.
There is a unique drawback, food shortage/having to compensate with a farm / slower growth which is downright impossible to mitigate early-game. Plus there is a substitute which is exist, earlier and for free. Forests. (for elves it isn't a substitute. But there balance is possible with far less collateral damage.)

Add into that unlike the other improvements its strongly dependent on terrain (hills only. cottages go everywhere there can be food) and in forrested terrain you also need a tech to be able to improve in the first place
(not so huge an issue since mining is also the tech for chopping forests. But jungle hills are still exist. So its still the "latest" of the early improvements without anything near / in sight to improve them unlike the other improvements, especially farms. And the next one who'll propose to nerf farms ill metaphorically lynch via the net. :p ;))
Now they even become more limited to just unforested hills without nonmine resources? Looks like it...


Also Mines are the only possible and thus viable improvements for plains-hills, Other things just don't work (windmills excluded but they seem like they will become the new mines, with mines now dieing a horrible demise...).
The existence of forests (which give +1 hammer and! a bit of health without any of the worker turns) shouldn't be mandatory and clearly superior for production.
Add into that the added usefullness / value of forests in FFH2 beyond that of vanilla (i doubt need explanation.) and that chopping is inferior and you are now in the odd situation that forests will be overpowered...

Please don't just go with a chart / maths without minding the wider implications. (on grassland-hills mines often lose out to even cottages with +2. Let alone other improvements.)


Also as is grassland is already far! superior to plains.
Now after such a change expanses of Plains are a downright death-sentence even for production-centers. (Aren't grasslands usually more forested as well?)
Read: As useful in overall game-flow as tundra has been before.
How odd is that? And totally counter-intuitive (as in makes the mod harder to play / learn, for what gain in terms of gameplay exactly?)
Yes I'm rather sure of / understand what that means and i mean it. Take a few seconds to contemplate the implications. (On a related note Forested Tundra will be about as valuable as un-forested Plains which makes the comparison even more fitting. Since its quite realistic honestly. As in often seen in many real games.)
Yea turning half the world into the equivalent of tundra sure! will make the game more fun. ;)
You'll not help the balance of the game if you'll inflate the randomness of the start even further. And make grassland starts the only viable option with anyone else dieing a painful demise. Poor AI who can't relocate their settlers and doesn't mind such things on expansion.


So all in all as a pie chart or bar-graph for balancing your concept might look! nice. But in terms of a real game its abysmal and about as useful as i outlined in the first post. (and i'll leave out any notion of uncertainty this time now seeing where the idea came from.
The Numbers / math looks! ok / understandable but! the conclusion / chosen way of solution is just! plain! wrong.
2+1 = 3 is to strong (? and a very strongly bolded "?") so we'll make it 1+1 = 2 instead of 2+0 = 2?
Go with 2+0 = 2. Trust me. If you really mind the wider implications and you'll see why very fast.)

On a bit lighter note: Take heed to the insights of the global financial crisis. Statistical maths / pie charts / bar graphs and real life just don't mix... ;)


And to reiterate the problem with the improvements was not! that the early game improvements were to strong (By what account in the first place? Besides purely! in comparison to the other improvements which can actually be moved up to make them a comparable option. That sounds so much like balancing for balancings sake without a real need for the way you proposed in a real game / in terms of gameplay.) and not! that the early game seemed not allright.
The problem was that in late! game the late game improvements have not been viable in comparison to the then-improved early game improvements.

I can see your point that an improvement which is available in early game and stays powerful because it still improves in power later. But then the early game is precisely not the only or best place to look for balance even if! you to stick with nerfing the early-game option. If a figertip has a scratch don't amputate an otherwise health arm.

The balancing of the game / flow of the game was not! off or broken by any means (i seldomly heard that there is a problem if you purely take farms / mines / cottages by themselves).
It was the inter-balance of the different improvements especially in the mid-late part of the game. And it was a mediocre issue not a huge one (in terms of real gameplay. The game didn't feel broke because of it. Its just odd mechanically.).
 
What about this:

Farm +2 (plus resources)
[tab]req: Agriculture
[tab]+1/0/0 with irrigation
[tab]+1/0/0 with sanitation
[tab]hooks up wheat/corn/etc
[tab]Carries irrigation

Lumbermill +2/+3 (with rivers)
[tab]req: Archery (changed from Iron Working)
[tab]0/+1/0
[tab]0/0/+1 with a river
[tab]being able to build on a forest is effectively another 0/+1/0

Mine +3 (plus resources)
[tab]req: Mining
[tab]0/+2/0
[tab]0/+1/0 with Blasting Powder
[tab]hooks up copper/iron/etc

Workshop +4
[tab]req: Construction (changed from smelting)
[tab]-1/+1/+1 (changed from -1/+1/0)
[tab]0/+1/0 with Smelting (changed from construction)
[tab]0/+2/0 with Guilds

Windmill +5
[tab]req: Engineering
[tab]+1/+1/+1 (changed from +1/0/+1)
[tab]0/+1/+1 with Machinery

Town +5
[tab]req: Education
[tab]0/0/+4
[tab]0/0/+1 with Taxation
[tab]takes a considerable time to grow to this level, makes it very vulnerable to pillaging
 
damn, early game just got another 50/100 turns longer.

About AI work: have you written the work-about for AI yet which prevents them from building mines on top of forested hills, or hills with a possibility of being forested in the near future?

edit: nevermind, written before kael posted above post. The new system seems a lot better. Don't forget, lumbermils also include the health from forests, making them more valuable. Also, how about adding an additional commerce to forests at commune with nature? Would make the later-game lumbermill more on par with mines.
 
What about this:

Farm +2 (plus resources)
req: Agriculture
+1/0/0 with irrigation
+1/0/0 with sanitation
hooks up wheat/corn/etc
Carries irrigation

Lumbermill +2/+3 (with rivers)
req: Archery (changed from Iron Working)
0/+1/0
0/0/+1 with a river
being able to build on a forest is effectively another 0/+1/0

Mine +3 (plus resources)
req: Mining
0/+2/0
0/+1/0 with Blasting Powder
hooks up copper/iron/etc

Workshop +4
req: Construction (changed from smelting)
-1/+2/0 (changed from -1/+1/0)
0/+1/0 with Smelting (changed from construction)
0/+1/0 with Guilds
0/0/+1 with Taxation (newly added)

Windmill +5
req: Engineering
+1/+1/+1 (changed from +1/+1/0)
0/+1/+1 with Machinery

Town +5
req: Education
0/0/+4
0/0/+1 with Taxation
takes a considerable time to grow to this level, makes it very vulnerable to pillaging

Yeah that looks nice, you forgot these however:

Watermill +4
req: Calendar (changed from engineering)
+1/+1/0 (changed from 0/+1/0)
0/+1/+1 with Machinery (changed from 0/+1/+2)

Workshop next to river will be a nice improvement for Financial leaders once you reach taxation, especially with guilds.
 
Looks much better imo. Even though i have some different opinions on priority of some improvements / areas / options that lack and others which don't need to appear that early.

(But thats just my humble opinon and far from the only one and possible option to do it in a good way...)

First i don't think that forests are bad / badly need a boost as is or that lumbermills should be so good so early.


So here goes my suggestions with reasons to why:

Farms: Fine as you outlined (Powerful but simple, good for gameplay :) But surely don't even need the slightest boost. Upper end of what should be possible) So:

Farm +2 (plus resources)
req: Agriculture
+1/0/0 with irrigation
+1/0/0 with sanitation
hooks up wheat/corn/etc
Carries irrigation


Mines overall fine as you outlined.
But! if they still prove to powerful and the community still calls for a nerf axe the +1 from Gunpowder. It's not that important to keep it if its in the way of balance or community happiness. So:

Mine +3 (plus resources) (or 2 plus resources)
req: Mining
0/+2/0
0/+1/0 with Blasting Powder (or just plain axe that one if its still a problem which i have my doubts but is possible)
hooks up copper/iron/etc


Towns: fine as you outlined (but mind the kuoritates town---> enclave should be shorter. The last 2 steps might still be worthwhile to accelerate growth a bit. like 3/4 the time they take overall now.) So:

Town +5
req: Education
0/0/+4
0/0/+1 with Taxation
takes a considerable time to grow to this level, makes it very vulnerable to pillaging


Windmill: I think this is vastly more important to make the rather problematic hilly terrain more usefull / viable (i think in terms of gameplay here is the real lack). And thats an improvement the AI is rather fond of so here might be a better place to look for a good mid-game improvement.
I think the sum is fine, but it needn't be powerful so early and be moved a bit earlier + more steps might be useful in progressing it as well. So:

Windmill +5
req: Archery
+1/+1/+0
0/+1/+0 with Engineering (alternative whould be +1 Food with Engineering instead of production)
0/+1/+1 with Machinery (alternative whould be to give +2 commerce if you go with production on engineering)



Workshop: I like the proposal quite a bit. :) But! i don't think making flatlands better earlier than hilly terrain is a good idea. Hence me thinking improving workshops also makes giving Windmills earlier a necessity. Flatlands are allready far more interesting usually. So this should be later than windmills imo.
So:

Workshop +4
req: Construction (changed from smelting)
-1/+2/0 (changed from -1/+1/0)
0/+1/0 with Smelting (changed from construction)
0/+1/0 with Guilds
0/0/+1 with Taxation (newly added) (even though commerce seems a mite unflavorfull here imo.
A good alternative whould be to mitigate the food penalty at Machinery. Yes machines don't take food unlike workers. I can see reason here. ;))
Also Taxation is allready packed
So instead of that last point id rather propose +1/+0/+0 at Machinery

Another reason to not go commerce with workshops is what greyfox outlined. Watermills might be a better place to make riverside nonfarms / noncottages more interesting.


Lumbermills (already elaborated on those at the start of the post):

Lumbermill +3/+4 (with rivers) but make it a mid-late-game improvement
req: Bronze Working / Smelting / Bowyers (if bowyers finally gets made cheaper from its riddicculous cost), Stirups (changed from Iron Working) all seem more sensible from flavor as well imo (but i guess thats very strongly down to tastes)
0/+1/0
0/0/+1 with a river
0/+1/+0 (or +1 commerce instead of production) at Machinery (minor boost for improving machinery and not so much the improvement in itself.t)
being able to build on a forest is effectively another 0/+1/0


Alternative whould be to allow it with FoL (which reduces micro) and take away the boost at machinery (i think that the one proposed here whould be better because FoL is already decent.)

I'm all for improved forests but those are already neat at the start. And some minding between cutting / leaving should be there beyond FoL. So coun't me into the crowd who think lumbermills should be late midgame to lategame rather.

Watermills (i think it whould be both nice and fitting to put those in the water-tech branch) So:
 
Yeah that looks nice, you forgot these however:

Watermill +4
req: Calendar (changed from engineering)
+1/+1/0 (changed from 0/+1/0)
0/+1/+1 with Machinery (changed from 0/+1/+2)

Workshop next to river will be a nice improvement for Financial leaders once you reach taxation, especially with guilds.

I didnt forget them, I cut them. These and Windmills step on each other functionally (with windmills on the mills and watermills on the rivers) and rivers are already so good that cutting Watermills helped each improvement have its own purpose.
 
Ok, i can see much sense on that.
Even though i think they might be nice to beef up the water line (sailing might still be a nice place for windmills if archery is not prefered.
"Hey cool, we know know how to use the wind to move over the water. That sure also works for milling grains...").

Also what speaks for axing those is that the requirements of building them will often puzzle even veteran players and isn't even explained in a good way in vanilla. (just riversides, only one on each side of the river? Anything else i forgot? Yea those things are a mess. As thematic as they may be.)
So i won't give my suggestion on that one and fully am happy with you axing them. ;)


But if you do so you really need to put Windmills earlier (because in gameplay there is reason / need for them to balance some locations. And if they don't flatly overpower hills, just mitigate part of the drawback that sounds rather fine. Thats exactly why imo they should appear early but improve later at engineering + machinery).


All in all i think more emphasis should be on machinery to make that tech really worthwhile but still have the mid-game-improvements be viable before (thats improtant to see a transition).
The only question remaining is if the early game improvements should be downright obsolete (in which case the boost at Gunpowder / Taxation / Sanitation needs to be rethought. Which i strongly disagree with. Even in the case of gunpowder) or if the lategame-improvements should be slightly better and complement existing improvements in a clear niche for themselves (which i would think is the way forward.) so that before machinery its an either-or question and machinery is the point where the late-game-things clearly pull ahead / the world goes steampunk but with old improvements still having their niche.
Otherwise honestly i don't see much need for machinery at all (I'm sure there are better places for free Greath Engineer + Crossbowman if it offers nothing else. Similar if not as bad as the issue with mercantilism. But then the cost of the tech is even higher so its still not a much better deal right now.)

Another thing i wan't to reiterate is the possibility to boost Mercantilism by giving a boost to mid-late-game improvements (+1 Production for Workshops / +1 Food for Windmills / +1 Commerce for Lumbermills... On top of what is outlined above. I mean it. Yes those whould be really powerful then. But the payoff would be not being able to run agriculture / conquest / GoN / foreign Trade(which imo could need another if slight boost as well :p.))
Otherwise Mercantilism should just be plain cut (in lieu with the tech). because its useless in comparison even lategame. (Or you'll do something else interesting to mercantilism. Which is of course another interesting possibility ;))
 
Just being curious, but could watermills be turned into buildings, which would work like a levee on BTS as proposed in other threads?
I think it would add some strength in favour with CE against FE, since riverside farms under agrarianism would not work nice with levee-like feature, so to balance out the FE > CE issues to certain extent.

Edit: Forgot to state that I stole the idea from someone else :mischief:
And my poor memory could not remember from whom I stole...
 
Alternative whould be to allow it with FoL (which reduces micro) and take away the boost at machinery (i think that the one proposed here whould be better because FoL is already decent.)

Posting just in case: please don't put any (more) non-religious features on religous techs, forcing every civ in the game to research a religion seems like a bad idea, + the grigori and illians won't even be able to get the feature!
 
Yeah, the more I think about it the more I think that Mines need to be +2 to compete with early priest specialists (+1:hammers:/+1:gold:/+GPP) vs. plains mine (+1:food:/+2:hammers:)
 
Just being curious, but could watermills be turned into buildings, which would work like a levee on BTS?
I think it would add some strength in favour with CE against FE, since riverside farms under agrarianism would not work nice with levee-like feature, so to balance out the FE > CE issues to certain extent.

I like this idea, especially since it would force a player to think about using agrarianism for river heavy cities. The hammer versus food tradeoff would add a bit to the game, as well as being a lategame source of hammers.


Edit: Someone also mentioned making some resources better and I think that is also an "urgent" concern. Perhaps just standardizing all resources of a common type to have the same amount of bonuses (i.e. cotton, bananas, etc. all give + x bonus where x is the sum of F/H/C ) and do that for all bonuses.
 
Posting just in case: please don't put any (more) non-religious features on religous techs, forcing every civ in the game to research a religion seems like a bad idea, + the grigori and illians won't even be able to get the feature!

I whould actually agree with that, and strongly. But i still listed it because its still possible to combine that "anyways" with tendious micromanagement (because it can still be built in newly bloomed or normal forests which then upgrade to ancients such surpassing the inability to build lumbermills).

Perhaps its not even to powerful to just plain allow it outright. (but then lumbermills really need to come late, Iron Working at the earliest. Not neccessarily get less powerful.)

So its not really fair to not list it even though i don't exactly think it would be a good change.
Because quite a number of players have requested it. And there is reason why one would want to change it.
Micromanagement to circumnavigate a restriction is just plain tendious and puts the restriction very much into question...


Edit: Just on the chance you got me wrong / didn't get the issue at hand.
I did not suggest making the tech Way of the Forests (which founds FoL, let alone hidden Paths which is only researchable for Civs running FoL) to unlock the ability to unlock Lumbermills (that whould be a really (edit for less gross speech ;): ) nonuseful suggestion and actually counter to flavor. FoL are radical treehuggers. So at best they tolerate Lumbermills.) but to allow Lumbermills being actually built in ancient forests. (which now is only possible if you build the mill prior to the forest upgrading to ancient.)
Sorry for not being clear about that. I wrote it that way because i'm certain those people who know / object the issue, know what I'm talking about.
But still its a bad idea to write it in such an unclear way in a public forum since as you might have demonstrated its very easy to get it wrong. So sorry for writing it in such a cryptic way if you did get me wrong because of it... ;)

PS:
+1 on the suggestion for making Watermills a building. :)
More meaningful buildings / wonders is always appreciated (i still miss my breweries even though i can understand the change. :(). If implemented i can only repeat myself with the water-techs like fishing / sailing / optics being a good place to put it. :))
 
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