Making late game improvements (windmills, watermills, lumberthingies) better

ok, I see by looking in the civlopedia, and civ4improvementsinfo.xml that watermills are still somewhere but deactivated, if i wanted to reactivate them for myself what file should i be looking at?
 
Now lumbermills are the way to go for any forested type hill, you get the same amount of hammers like a mine (until blasting powder which gives another hammer for the mines) + you get to keep the health bonus (which really is usefull) + you get the commerce bonus if the it's near a river.
For unforested hills you can either go FOL/BLOOM or just build windmills/cottages if the title is grassland one.
Mines are only needed to hook up resources and very early in the game only built on unforested hill areas.
 
You can cut the forest for a temporary boost in hammers if you really need it though. And that's why I advocated for the +50% boost to be included again, which it has, with Archery.

Overtime a Lumber Mill is of course better. But so is settling a specialist, but many use them for popping a tech or golden age anyways.
 
I love this changes. Combined with tech changes from earlier patches, like mining enabling chopping, and archery available through mining.

Overall, there are now two ways to get raw materials for your production - mines and lumbermills - and both are viable ways.

Cities on flatlands with forests use lumbermills, and those on hills without forests use mines.

Cities fortunate enough to have forested hills can pick what they like. Mines provide chop bonus and additional hammer with late tech (and with Arete) while lumbermills provide forest health. Both are viable - balance is reached.

I particularly like that more lumbermills are used and that more forests are preserved. No longer we have total deforestation around our cities - now we have lush forests in our empire. It provides a much better role-playing feel. and gives the additional layer of fantasy feel.

I like that FoL is much more viable choice for non elves now - you need to cut down few forests for villages and farms, but if you keep lumbermills instead of mines you will have much more use from ancient forests and happy from Guardian of Nature.

I'm also glad to see watermills cut (but would like them back as +25% hammer boosting building ;) )

All in all, another great change :D:D:D
 
It would prove as additional incentive to build rivers now that regular brewery are gone. Though for me at least, its hard to argue with two extra health
 
Question:

Is the Workshop "+x with Guilds" referring to the Guilds tech or Guilds civic?

I ask because everything else seems to be based on techs, but the vanilla bonuses for watermills and workshops are based on a civic (State Property).
 
Question:

Is the Workshop "+x with Guilds" referring to the Guilds tech or Guilds civic?

I ask because everything else seems to be based on techs, but the vanilla bonuses for watermills and workshops are based on a civic (State Property).

The tech gives the bonus.
 
I love this changes. Combined with tech changes from earlier patches, like mining enabling chopping, and archery available through mining.

I'm broadly enjoying the change as well :)

I like that FoL is much more viable choice for non elves now - you need to cut down few forests for villages and farms, but if you keep lumbermills instead of mines you will have much more use from ancient forests and happy from Guardian of Nature.

Although you can't build lumbermills on Ancient Forest. Would like to see that changed (given that ancient forests will after all grow on forest tiles with lumbermills, and you can just chop them anyway)
 
Yeah, its the tech. (And Workshop bonus in BtS isn't only from State Property. Caste System also adds +1 hammer)
 
Yeah, its the tech. (And Workshop bonus in BtS isn't only from State Property. Caste System also adds +1 hammer)

Actually it's +1:food: from State Property. The :hammers: is From Caste System.
 
Thanks for the answer.


There's a theory that was debated on the vanilla boards when Civ4 first came out that might be useful for consideration. It's based on an analysis of various kinds of "converting this to that" options in the game mechanics, from whipping to tile improvement options to specialists. In short, the comparison is every bit as subject to "if/then" conditions than the eternal CE/FE debates. I don't believe it as a literal conversion that provides hard numbers, but the concept behind seems pretty solid.

1 food = 2 hammers = 4 commerce

Again, I'm NOT making the case that this is literally true, just that the hierarchy holds in general terms and it can be used for a rough comparison of the relative value. Whether you think it's 1:2:4 or 1:1.5:2.5 or whatever, Food>Hammers>Commerce and that makes it possible to get a rough ranking of the improvements.

==

Windmill is the best. The more you weight food, the better it is in comparison to anything else, though Farms/Sanitation gain.

Farms with Sanitation are next, depending on the food weighting. In no case would they be worse than Mines and Towns

Farms without Sanitation, Mines and Towns are next. If you drop the food weighting farms might fall below. However, they are from a starting tech while the others take more time to get up. Mines take a lot longer than Farms to improve via tech, and Towns have time and plunder weakness. Even if you want to go with Mines or Towns, you'll probably still want to farm first, then switch tiles/improvements.

Workshops and Lumbermills are the bottom. The more you weight food, the worse Workshops are.

==

Now, obviously, all of that is going to be extremely situation dependent. If you have 2 forests in a grassland city, those hammers from a Lumbermill will be extremely important, well in excess of just the raw numbers, and having no tree option means that Workshops are much more important. Also, there are limits on both the efficiency and capacity to convert among the types of production so even specialized cities will likely need a bit of each, e.g. only so much food is useful in most cities as even whipping and feeding will eventually bump happy limits.

However, overall, Lumbermills are mediocre and workshops just plain suck until late enough in the game that you can likely have Windmill techs anyway. They are basically strictly specialty application where the other options don't exist due to terrain. More importantly, with the Workshop improvement techs coming quite late, Lumbermills are better in that niche for a long time as long as the option exists. In Vanilla, they eventually come into their own with State Property because they get +1 food but that's not present in FFH. Without it, the primary use for Workshops is in an extremely food-rich city without hills to mine. Personally, I can't imagine using them in any other situation.

I would recommend a boost for Workshops, but I think that if they were boosted, then that food-rich city with lots of Workshops would be better than any production city in the game with the possible exception of lots of Arete mines.

As noted, Windmills are the best overall, as long as they are an option. As drawbacks, though, they are quite late in techs and they are all-rounders so their application is limited for highly specialized cities. I think they are probably just fine.

Farms, Mines, and Towns are mostly balanced and in any case are complete distinct in their roles so they are fine.
 
I know... I never said State Property bonus was hammers. My comment was directed to the poster that said that the bonus to workshops is at State Property, by adding that Caste System also adds a bonus (And neither did the original poster, we both used the word bonus but this isn't about BtS)
 
Hmm, After playing a couple games with the new changes, I am mostly satisfied.

My only complaint is how late windmills come, I'd like to see them come earlier but a bit weaker, but I can live with that.

Lumbermills are a bit... meh. That's fine, I guess, really, with the health and all. I just wish they were a bit neater. Maybe some tech later to add +1 commerce, or another hammer perhaps.

Maybe even restructuring of what they are exactly. Make lumbermills into "logging camps" and make lumbermill a building available at, oh, iron working or bowyers, and have the building add +1 hammer to city production for each logging camp. It might even be neat to have a bonus for archery and ship unit construction, but that puts it more into the range of being a national wonder.

Heck, it might even be neat to make it a wonder buildable on river cities, and it places the old watermill art on a nearby river tile, just for old time's sake.
 
1) The bonus for mines from Aerte should be increased. The mines should be improvement of choice for civ running Aerte. IMHO +2 :commerce: should be right to represent the skilful craftsmen

Mines are already the improvement of choice for Arete. +2 :commerce: on mines would be very unbalancing; one of the Khazad leaders and both Luchuirp leaders are Financial, which would turn that +2 into +3. Combine with Aristocracy and every tile in their empire has the potential to generate 3 or more :commerce:. RoK is huge already (imo) because of the gold bonus from the religion helps you keep your tech slider at 100%, and guaranteed and early access to iron (via the Mines of Gal-Dur wonder) helps you create a dominant military. Toss on a massive :commerce: boost as well and any semblance of balance will be gone.
 
Although you can't build lumbermills on Ancient Forest. Would like to see that changed (given that ancient forests will after all grow on forest tiles with lumbermills, and you can just chop them anyway)
You CAN have lumbermills on ancient forests, if you build them before they became ancient, what isn't rare as you anyway research archery earlier than you will get ancient forests.
For Elves now windmills are really strong as on an ancient forest you get either 3/3/1(even 3/4/2 with Machinery) or 2/4/1 (even 2/5/2 with Machinery).
 
Mines are already the improvement of choice for Arete. +2 :commerce: on mines would be very unbalancing; one of the Khazad leaders and both Luchuirp leaders are Financial, which would turn that +2 into +3. Combine with Aristocracy and every tile in their empire has the potential to generate 3 or more :commerce:.

Yes, You are probably right, it has been a while since I played financial leader.
 
is a forest with a lumbermill supposed to turn into an ancient forest with lumbermill with fol? (cause thats what happend to my partner in mp)
 
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