Making threats

[Kamamura]

I was surprised about one thing in diplomacy.

I like the fact that the items AI won't trade are red-coloured so that I save time not making futile proposals.

But what if I want to make demands? "You don't like me enough to trade?" Sure, I don't like you as well, but I am not asking, I am demanding. Like in "Give me this tech or I will chop your head off".

The AI constantly does it, why can't I do it?

 

[MrCynical]

Anything that is redded out will not be given to you no matter how much you demand it, since the AI is willing to go to war to keep it. Once again this is just there to save you time, as only things that are not redded out can possibly be acquired by threats.

 

[PekkaM]

Anything that is redded out will not be given to you no matter how much you demand it, since the AI is willing to go to war to keep it. Once again this is just there to save you time, as only things that are not redded out can possibly be acquired by threats.

That's exactly why human player needs a red out option too: To save our time and reputation. Beeline an advanced tech and every AI takes turns to come and ask you for it usually not willing to give anything in change (Yeah but our techs are redded out, can't you see? ).

Discovering an advanced tech is often a global minus on your reputation because AI can come asking for it immediately. Same goes to losing wonder race. In reality you are a loser but every AI sees it the way that you just got a bunch of gold and come asking for it

 

[Meffy]

This at least is semi-"realistic."

-10: You won the lottery... and didn't give ME a cut from the winnings.

 

[TerraHero]

Yes i find it anoying how this is done, when the AI demands something or rather, sugger coated "Asks you as a friend for your goddamn lung". And you say "well i need that to live" then its all "omfg lamer! -1 -1 -1 -1~~~!!"

But if you ask them for something "can you spare a penny?" then they are "omfg, are you treathening me!? -1 -1 -1~~`!!"

So i find this whole lot very lame, and most of the time when you DO give them what they want there is bound to be some other idiot out there that goes "h4x, you traded with our worst enemy second to hepetadis" and THEY penalize you.

For the players point of view you cant win. Its an eternal lose-lose situation.

 

[PekkaM]

I think the best way to solve it would be to have some kind of negotiation option on those situations. At least in CivIII we had an option to ask for gold in trade and give "sorry, no check, no tech"-answer if needed.

Like when AI comes to ask you to go to war against smbd, you'd have options to

-Ask for a military tech to help you in war
-Ask for gold to get/upgrade units
-Ask for resource to build better troops
-Agree to declare war in 1-4 turns to have time to mobilize units and move defenders to important locations (if those AI's are still at war)

If AI is not willing to give anything, then he probably doesn't need your help that much. You certainly cannot get an AI to war without constant ass kissing or big tech bribery (and most of the time those options are "redded out", ask Cyrus if you don't belive).

Diplomacy is so ruined that I mostly tell everybody to buzz off and kick their asses later

 

[Psyringe]

That's exactly why human player needs a red out option too: To save our time and reputation. Beeline an advanced tech and every AI takes turns to come and ask you for it usually not willing to give anything in change (Yeah but our techs are redded out, can't you see? ).

Hm, I disagree. Managing flags to "redden" or "unredden" my techs would actually *cost* me time, probably more than it would save.

Also, your reputation *should* suffer if you get an important new tech and refuse to trade it around - the same as when you get angry about your ally because he doesn't give give you gunpowder when you need it.

 

[sunround]

Yes, option to negotiate is necessary, as it was in Civ3. Or red mark option.
It is nice for them, "don't ask, while I am not in the big trouble". I wanna this too

Human is used by AI. Give me this and ask nothing from me without exchange.

 

[slothman]

Does that mean the AI's shouldn't like each other very much?
I doubt they consistantly trade techs with each other.
What applies to people should also for the computer.
And vice versa.

 

[calyth]

Also, your reputation *should* suffer if you get an important new tech and refuse to trade it around - the same as when you get angry about your ally because he doesn't give give you gunpowder when you need it.

I'm not particularly good at the game, but there are times that I hunt for a certain tech to accomplish a certain task. Like the last game that I wanted a cultural victory (I'm going to get boned by the Greeks, or at least a severe set back), I was gunning for the Eiffel Tower. The AI gets the ability to red it out if they're building the wonder that the tech offers, but there have been cases that they want the tech that I wanted to use to build a wonder.
If anything, there should be a more polite answers. You should be allowed to tell your allies that you're not quite willing to trade it right now, which shouldn't take a dent in the reputation - afterall they do the same thing. Maybe that would bar the AI from asking for at least 10 turns, and might induce the AI to entice me with something instead just asking for charity/tribute. And the option to negotiate something would be nice - but then half the time AI doesn't really have any good techs or enough gold to make it worth the while. If they used a different safeguard to prevent abuses for trading tech for GPT, then allowing you to negotiate instead of gifting a tech on demand would be much more possible

 

[ceiph]

i just wish i could demand stuff, like my army is on the outskirts of your land give me this tech or ur citys burn

 

[Kolyana]

NOTHING .... NOTHING ... should be redded out ... PERIOD. It's a sorry assed, half cut way of thinning down the whole diplomatic tree. *SURE* the AI can have things they won't trade no matter what ... but how about letting us pick them anyway and have the AI respond accordingly? How about then giving us some fresh options that allow us to DEMAND it or offer a huge amount in return or something else?

Denying options before things even get rolling is ridiculous and lazy.

 

[cyron]

Denying options before things even get rolling is ridiculous and lazy.

Yes and no. If they're not going to give them to you at any cost, then redding them out does save time and effort, which is a good thing as far as making sure the game plays at a decent pace.

Unfortunately, it does deny one the chance to annoy the AI by making unreasonable demands

 

[PekkaM]

Yes and no. If they're not going to give them to you at any cost, then redding them out does save time and effort, which is a good thing as far as making sure the game plays at a decent pace.

Unfortunately, it does deny one the chance to annoy the AI by making unreasonable demands

Ah, but do they get un reddened if you scare them enough or is it still like "not willing to trade yet"? I fear it's the later since they have other things too that you have no way of getting even though they are not red.

If it was just a way to mark things that you AT THE MOMENT have nothing which is worth enough to trade or you are not threatening enough, it wouldn't be that bad. Just knock down one of his cities and try again. Problem is that reddened out items seem to me are kind of "we rather get our civilization destroyed than give you this" which is against survival purpose of any civ. It's more of that AI mentality "Let's see, I still have Persians, Mongols, Japanese and Romans so I might just sacrifice this civ and still have better chance of stopping you without that gunpowder...".

edit: Returning the tech stealing would fix this

 

[Clown2TheLeft]

That's the key, right there--driving the AI buggy. I found that was an excellent pretense for war. It's sad to see this gone the way of Rubik's Cubes and hot-air corn poppers...


Later!

--The Clown to the Left

 

[bigmattzilla]

i think it should be as simple as making it that if an ai isn't willing to do something for me, then i shouldn't be asked to do the same thing for them.

If i can't ask someone to cancel deals with a single one of the people they trade with, then they'd better not be comin to be with there bs.

and also, I can't count the number of ally's that I have given a tech to, out of the sheer kindness of my heart, but when I ask them for some other tech, its like, 'yea, we just begged you for your one tech that we don't have, and we have two that you don't have, that aren't even as good, but now that we have your balls in our hand, we don't feel like giving you diddly.'

I'm sorry, but if I just gave you rifling, you had better effing give me democracy!