Malakim and Religion

[Seventh Star]

I would really like to see a Malakim related religion worshiping Lugus in FfH. To me at least, neither Runes nor Order feels 'good'. The first time I played Ffh, I was debating whether Leaves or Runes was the goody-two-shoes crew. Order being it never crossed my mind, what with them acting like fascists in half the civilopedia. Runes didn't occur to me, between the money obsession and seeming to be there for the dwarf civs. We have serious evil with the veil, shouldn't we have something that is remotely standard 'good'. Everything i've seen indicates that a Lugus religion would work their, pulls it's already been half-planned in various places. And it seems a little wierd to have a leader who is a die-hard worshiper of a religion that is barely mentioned elsewhere.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

The "is the order really good" debate has gone on before. And the Leaves vs Runes one is going on now in the other thread. Really, most of it is projection, imo, since none of them have strictly defined creeds in game, merely themes and a descriptor of good, neutral, or evil.
Personally I'm a big fan of freedom, so I'd certaintly chaff under a state with any state religion. Perhaps the order would be worst--if they were wrong. But there really *is*, in Erebus at least, a war between good and evil.

But to your main point--more religions would be cowd pleasing, for sure, but might not enter the scene until the next design phase. If they do, a Lugus one is a good bet.

 

[Seventh Star]

Ah, what the heck, guess i'll teach myself to mod by creating a new religion, or at least reverse-engineering an old one.

 

[Lucius Sulla]

As I just mentioned elsewhere, I really think the right number of religions (specially for freaks like me that like to play huge maps with 18 civs-+2 if the infernals and the mercurians appear-) is 7, as in the unmodded game (mmm... there were 7 in the normal civIV game right... it's only that it's SOOO long I only play this mod that I barely remember).

I think that adding 1 good and 1 evil religion would do the trick (making it 2-3-2 for good-neutral-evil). Certainly the Sun religion of the Malakim is something that has been going into the people's mind practically from the beggining of the developing of the mod (for what I have seen). For the evil civ, I think it would be cool to have a 'shadow/Essus' or the like worshiping that would fit very well the Dark Elves and the Shadow Men. But of course that would mean the perfect moment to add the new religions would be the Shadow Phase of the mod.

 

[seZereth]

new religions, hmm ... another thing for you guys to look forward to ...`shadow`
but keep on debating and ideas coming, it`s always good to hear your opinions.

 

[onedreamer]

I wouldn't call Runes and Overlords neutral religions. The only pure neutral religion is the Fellowship of the Leaves. Runes is neutral-good and Overlords neutral-evil.

 

[Bringa]

I really don't see how OO are anything but pure evil: they deal with undead and slavery, and their God is uncannily like a certain Ancient Evil, sleeping beyond the stars (not dead--just waiting). I mean, come on, this is Kael's Cthulhu. It's evil.

 

[Lucius Sulla]

Reviewing other related topics, I found the idea of having all 21 separate religions BUT only 7 discovery type religions. The civ that would discover it would be the one to decide which of the 3 religions tied to that tech would it get.

I can't start to say how awesome does this idea is for me.

Right now, sphere wise, we are having the current religions, with their sphere, associated angel and alignment:

Order - Law - Junil - Good

Runes - Earth - Kilmorph - Neutral/Good

Leaves - Nature - Cernunnos - Neutral

Overlords - Water - Danalin - Neutral/Evil

Veil - Entropy - Agares - Evil

Alright, according to this scheme, we should take in account that we will need two more religions (possibly one evil and one good, but we will get to that), and we should consider a 'related theme' for the groups of three religions, trying to find an associated theme.

So, here is my approach:


'Militant' Good:

Spheres: Law, Creation, Sun

* I think the theme of the Sun/Lugus feels more militant than spiritual, and the other spheres that are good sound a lot more spiritual than militant.
Here I would have gone with Fire instead of Sun, but I think I have read somewhere that the implied angel got corrupted *

Suggested Religions: The Order, The Guardians of the Arbor, The Followers of the Sun.

* The Guardians/Creation religion would be the elven approach to goodness. Militant defense of the possitive aspect of Nature, with the will to defeat the corruption of the land. It's the kind of thing Arendel would worship, I think. Since the fire sphere is out, the 'raining fire to purify your enemies' type of good falls rather on the much more bening Lugus. Yeah, I know it's not that much, but the other three good spheres are clearly more passive minded.


'Spiritual' Good:

Spheres: Enchantment, Life, Spirit.

* I think these goes without saying. I had a certain temptation to switch Life to Creation in the militant good religions, with something in the like of 'The Avengers of Sucellus'. But... dunno, did not have to me the right tone for some reason, being a half dead god, and so on.

Suggested Religions: The Artificers, The Harmonium, The Wardens of Peace.

* The Artificiers would be kind of the signature religion of the Luchuirp, enchantment through faith, beauty through artificial creation (as opposed to the 'Creation' sphere one which is based on a more natural approach). The Harmonium would be rather based with the celebration of life, and the understanding of its cycles. Its followers would worship and celebrate the cycle of the alive/dead god Sucellus. Finally the Wardens of Peace would kind of be the signature religion of the Elohim, the betterment of world and self through meditation, and peace.


'Living forces' Neutrality:

Spheres: Nature, Force, Metamagic.

* As usual, I am choosing more though what seems closer to the current religions and its themes, and out of a process of elimination to fit the general idea I have. This would be the neutral religions that will not switch allignment

Suggested Religions: The Fellowship of Leaves, Seekers of the Prime, The Masters of the Art

* The Seekers of the Prime, followers of the angel of Balance, would be an equilibrium seeking force, fervent believers that excessive good or evil is damaging to the world, and that for prolonged survival the battle between them must not be resolved, even by means of force... only pure and unadultered energy would be the true source for enlightment. The Masters of the art would be the signature religion for Amurites: the sheer pursuit of power and the control of yourself and your surroundings by the use and research of pure magic.


'Improving' Neutrality:

Spheres: Earth, Air, Mind.

* These would be the religions that would not accept evil in its midst, but would keep you neutral. I was doubting between mind and body... even when mind has good potential for mental tyrants a la Babylon 5 Psi-Corps, I thought body and the theme of Strength has a better fit for an evil cult for war. Thus I decided to adopt a much more bening approach to mind. And, anyway, the octopus overlords has already a bit of that theme, anyway

Suggested Religions: The Runes of Kilmorph, The Sensorium, The Hive

* The Sensorium (yeah, faction names from Planescape are quite fun to rip off ) would be seekers of the art, beauty and sensation, but with no further objective than personal enrichment and experience, more of an epicurean approach to pleasure, though, rather than a full and wild hedonistic approach. For the mind sphere, the hive... I have thought of a kind of 'scary' approach to something that can be good... Just imagine that the priests of this religion would share thougths, communicate directly mind to mind and would have the objective, as they would go up the ranks, in integrating in a fuller way in a hive type of mind. The sharing of feelings, of needs, would eradicate evil, even when the porpouse would be half-selfish (still, the integration would give the outside perception of a 'caring' society, since the pain of one 'extension' of the hive would be felt too by the rest). Of course, just watching the priests working in a synchronized manner and in complete silence, would give you the creeps.


'Giving Will for Power' Neutrality:

Spheres: Water, Chaos, Shadow.

* This would would cover the religions that while not completely evil, certainly have too selfish overtones. Certainly the madness of the overlords, or the dragon worship of the Cult of the Dragon, and the immortality quest through turning into a Shadow are things that a good guy would not do.

Suggested Religions: Octopus Overlords, Cult of the Dragon, The Shadow Meld

* Yes, I know... I have put the Cult of the Dragon here. It would be rather more something in between of what now is, from the Kuriotates to the Sheaim. The worship of the ancient dragons, actually slaving yourself and your will to them in exchange of power and/or protection, and the fact it is tied to the chaos sphere... kind of decided me to put it here. The Shadow would have a slightly different theme... it would be of course the 'signature' religion of the Sidar, and would be about surrendering part of your very soul, your very body, and your very mind to the Shadow, in exchange for immortality.

'Hot' Evil:

Spheres: Entropy, Fire, Body.

* This kind of comes for granted... the conquest, physical type of evil.

Suggested Religions: The Ashen Veil, The Scorchers, The Warborn

* The Scorchers would be about fiery madness... the burning desire of the maddened and corrupted angel Bhaal to turn earth to a burning wasteland. If you know a bit the them of I.C.E. middle earth setting, the 8th Nazgul, Ren the Unclean, would have this type of style. Finally we would have the signature cult of war and conquest of the Doviello, bent on domination and physical tyranny over the rest of the world.

'Cold' Evil:

Spheres: Winter, Death, Dimensional.

* In the same way that the 'Fire' type of evil would correspond more to the 'active and physical' pursuit of evil, I chose these spheres to fit rather with a more 'phylosophical' style of evil.

Suggested Religions: The Legacy of Mulcarn, The Dustmen, The Seekers of the Void

First of all we would have the signature religion for the Illians, their desire to return to the Ice Age and all the associate themes. The Dustmen would be somber, grey eyed, Death&Undeath cult. Turning the earth in an eternal wasteland of zombies, wraiths, and so on. The necromancer approach to religion. Finally, the Seekers of the Void would be the worshiping, a la Cthulhu mythos, of outer alien and unscrutable powers... not the type that would go for Cthulhu itself (that would rather be the octopus overlord), but rather the type that would go for Yog-Shothoth, Nyarlathotep and Azathoth. The adoration of pure, unadultered alien evil for power (the demons of the veil are much more human-like at that and understanding of human corruption... this would be a bit more like the Dungeon-dimension things from discworld).

_____

Phew... that was quite a long post... I started writting and I kind of got dragged on. Of course, probably I am missing about the details about Kael's world, but I hope he could possibly take profit from some of the ideas here about religion.

 

[Lucius Sulla]

Thinking about it, if I would make a switch, I would first put the 'chaos' sphere religion back to its current Cult of the Dragon weird-half religious state, then move up the Death Sphere in its place as 'Neutral-Evil' cult of assassins that would specially go against undeath creatures (sort of, kill what should be dead). Then, I would add to 'cold death' the mind theme (the original evil hive psionicist type).

Anyway the idea of the post is to supply ideas for the future, rather than anything else. Any comment?

 

[Rhymes]

The problem with too many religions is that:

1- It makes religious victory even harder then it allready is. (someone even mentionned in an other thread that after converting 100% of the world's cities to runes he was still short of religious victory)

2- Having many religion ends up destroying religious alliances. Every civs end up worshipping different religions, especially when you play on standard maps and below.

3- Imagine having cities with 9 different religions each building their respective temples.

So even though it would be great flavour wise, it would really screw up the game play imo.

(See pitfall # 1 in mod creation )


I really like the idea of getting a choice of religion when discovering the prereq tech though!
That wouldn't screw up any of the gameplay and balance and it would help getting games as much different from one an other as possible!
I hope this gets through.

 

[Lucius Sulla]

The problem with too many religions is that:

1- It makes religious victory even harder then it allready is. (someone even mentionned in an other thread that after converting 100% of the world's cities to runes he was still short of religious victory)

2- Having many religion ends up destroying religious alliances. Every civs end up worshipping different religions, especially when you play on standard maps and below.

3- Imagine having cities with 9 different religions each building their respective temples.

So even though it would be great flavour wise, it would really screw up the game play imo.

(See pitfall # 1 in mod creation )


I really like the idea of getting a choice of religion when discovering the prereq tech though!
That wouldn't screw up any of the gameplay and balance and it would help getting games as much different from one an other as possible!
I hope this gets through.

Well, the whole idea would be getting only 7 religions only in a given game out of the 21.

EDIT: Oh, damn, that's exactly what you said at the end, my bad.

 

[loki1232]

I just want to point out that although there were 7 religions in vanilla civ 4, in FfH religions play a much much larger factor and thus its harder to add more of them withotu detracting fromt he already existing ones.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Yes. While Lucius ideas are well thought out for flavor and consistent with the design, I think, it'd be REALLY hard to have 21 religions and have meaningful differences in game.

 

[Thelo]

I agree. Having more religions means that each one is less significant. I actually think that five is a great number, at least for normal-sized games, better than vanilla's seven, since with seven, it often ends up with everyone having their own and this reduces the interesting relationships between religion blocs.

 

[marioflag]

I agree with Bringa about OO alignment.I really can't see OO anything else than evil.Drown,Asylum,Lunatic,Slavery and so on could be hardly classified as Neutral.

 

[marioflag]

Is there any chance we will see in future minor religions or simply cults which except for their initial city don't spread in any other city?This would open some possibilities to concepts like "combating Heresy" or other interesting stuff which was part of religion wars in human history.
It would be also fun to see some events in which a Major religion splits in different churches like Fellowship of leaves split in Fellowship of the Apple and Fellowship of the Orange

 

[coko]

Hahaha, that seems a little heavy, and another problem, in just how many units/buildings that forces/allows the player to build. Too many options can overwhelm a player.

I'd say add more similar features like the High Priest, maybe have specific spells for that player, or maybe a Global Spell/Power you can cast when you have the choosen religion and maybe some other pre-req.

These could do a random assortment of things, maybe with some fear of backlash?

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Is there any chance we will see in future minor religions or simply cults which except for their initial city don't spread in any other city?This would open some possibilities to concepts like "combating Heresy" or other interesting stuff which was part of religion wars in human history.

A religion confined to one city? Apart from flavor, isn't that really just a national wonder?

 

[wilboman]

I agree with Bringa about OO alignment.I really can't see OO anything else than evil.Drown,Asylum,Lunatic,Slavery and so on could be hardly classified as Neutral.

Ah, but you see the god they worship is essentially a neutral god. He's just asleep, and the Octopus Overlords are distorting his dreams into nightmares. So if the god should ever awaken, his religion has a potential of being purged and turning to true neutral.

 

[marioflag]

A religion confined to one city? Apart from flavor, isn't that really just a national wonder?

This minor cult shouldn't give you a great boost to the city, it could be balanced with good and bad effect in a city.
My idea was based around the creation of about 10 minor cults which can be introduced by events to make every game different.The mechanic shouldn't be different from that of discovering a resource under a mine, so there is a % chance per turn that a random cult (among 10) will be founded in a city.
IMO if religion aspect will be improved in next versions as it seems, minor religions which haven't a substantial influence on game balance could add religious diversification, flavour and above all fun.It could be also fit with the patriarch theme, giving the Patriarch the power "to protect the cult or destroy the heresy".
BTW i'm an avid reader of religion wars through history having anything which "simulate" wars against levellers, huguenot, Monophysite and so on would just make me excited, so i'm a bit biased