Managing Mana

[Feyd Rautha]

I just started playing recently and I'm very intrigued by the game so far.

Currently I'm on my third outing into the realms of Erebus and I'm having a very strong game. I went with the erebus map option this time around and I'm having a blast. I chose the Khazad and I'm sitting at 11 cities with an abundant treasury and I've yet to cast Mother Lode (it will net me well over 1000 gold right now).

As you can see, I'm managing a large civ right now (considering Barbarian World, Raging Barbarians, and 12 civs are enabled) and I have a LOT of resources (bountiful world is an option). Currently, I have FIVE mana with FIVE more within strking distance.

Right now I have...
3 Earth Nodes (+1 from my keep [stacking has spawned two additional improvements already])
1 Enchantment Node (for the Enchant Blades of Bombur and the +1 )
1 Life Node (for the +1 and the Aquae Sucellus wonder)

In striking distance are four untyped nodes and one death node (Broken Seplucher).

Now comes my decision. Since I'm new I didn't quite understand how to best use the nodes I just went with mostly earth (per various strat recommendations), however, due to the sheer number of nodes I will wind up having at my disposal without having to fight a single battle, I came up with two options that I would like more advanced players to comment on if possible.

Option 1: Delve Deeper
The first option I have is to get 1 more life node (for the health and Bombur's "Destroy Undead") and convert all of the others to earth further improve my resource discovery chances. I have well over 50 mines in my lands at this point and with 4 Earth mana I already have discovered three new resoruces. This is the "steady as she goes" option as it plays in to what I've been doing already. NOTE: I would effectively lose one of those mana options I listed above because it's already be typed as a death node.

Option 2: A Khazad Archmage?!
My second option is one that I'm sure has been done before and that is to found Esus and make Gibbon Goetia. This would allow me to delve deep into many of the caster chains and allow me a lot of flexibility. This has another side benefit in that it will allow me to have a holy city. Earlier in the game, Malkin beat me to founding Kilimorph and so I'm missing out on a huge economy boost because I don't have the Tablets of Bambur (probably netting him a good 20 gold before modifiers at the moment). If I switch to Esus though I can use my massive treasury to leverage the undercouncil as well as spread my religion everywhere relatively quickly.

This would be my proposed strat....

1. First off, have my adepts convert two of the unclaimed nodes to Metamagic.
2. Found Esus, focus on a great prophet for my next GP
3. Build Gibbon and take get Dispel Magic.
4. Reset the Earth Nodes then reset the Metamagic node
5. Convert nodes in order to gain one of each type needed for the various towers.
6. Construct all the towers and the Tower of High Sorcery to win the game.

NOTE: Alternatively, I can keep two metamagic, two Earth, 1 Life, and 1 Enchantment nodes active and make a "quick conversion stack" to cycle through the various tower mana reqs. after each is built.

I mean with that many nodes I would think this could work AND I will be able to say I won a Magical Tower victory as the KHAZAD

Thoughts?

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

two things off the top of my head: first, you don't need enchantment mana to use Bambur's enchanted blade ability. in FFH, mana is only needed to LEARN spells, once you have them you can change your mana nodes to something else and you will keep the spells.

second, you don't need a great prophet for the Nox Noctis, a great merchant will do just fine.

 

[Breez]

Okay I will ask...

Why focus so much on Multiples of the same mana type? 2 meta magic? One will do the trick. All the 2nd does for you is get you Floating eye promo for free on your new adept units. If you made Gibbon Goetia you can get Floating eye by spending a promo and have more mana at your disposal. Alternately get THREE meta magic nodes Then Build GG, get Dispel magic for free on him, and then dispel 2 (or all 3?) back down to make something more useful.

3 earth? I guess that is nice for GG to start with Stone skin but again, the SMALL TINY chance of getting another resource doesn't off set the other things you could be getting with different magics instead. 1 mind could get you +2 research in every city (that you store an adept in) which could all get you Wall of Stone in each of those cities too.

I think multiples of a mana type can be helpful for races that can get mages and will make a large use of saved promos but given the Dwarf's limitations towards mages I think that makes them more of a Wide spread of mana types instead of specialization.

If you DON"T do Esus and GG then don't double up your mana types at all in my opinion.

Edit: Also Bambur will never get any other spell beyond Enchant blade. You will never get him with Destroy undead. If you make Anthieianananan (how ever you spell it) Destroy undead is a Given. Your mana has no effect on that at all. You could have ZERO mana and he still gets the spell.

OOOOOooo keep in mind if you switch religions you will lose Bambur.

 

[Emptiness]

1 Enchantment Node (for the Enchant Blades of Bombur and the +1 )

Bambur starts with Enchantment I automatically. The civ that builds him doesn't need to have access to Enchantment mana.

The first option I have is to get 1 more life node (for the health and Bombur's "Destroy Undead")

Bambur can't train new spell spheres or levels. Even if you have a Life node he won't be able to learn Life I or II.

1. First off, have my adepts convert two of the unclaimed nodes to Metamagic.
2. Found Esus, focus on a great prophet for my next GP
3. Build Gibbon and take get Dispel Magic.

Only one Metamagic node is needed for an Arcane unit to learn Metamagic I. A second Metamagic node is not needed for that unit to learn Metamagic II. In fact, once a unit has learned level I of a spell sphere it can then learn levels II and III even if its civ no longer has access to any sources of the corresponding mana type. So, you will need to build one Metamagic node in order for Gibbon to learn Metamagic I and II. Then he can dispell the Metamagic node you won't need one any more.

 

[Breez]

It seems to me you think you have to have the mana current to cast the spell.

It is as Gekko says, you only have to have the mana to LEARN the spell, once you have the spell you no longer need the mana at all.

 

[Feyd Rautha]

See... like I said I'm new. I'll definitely have a lot more reading to do lol.

In my defense I was looking at a tactics writeup for the Khazad that threw me off.

One thing I was going to do was focus later on Druids and Earth Elementals because of their affinity bonus so that's why I made so many earth nodes.

Anyway, probably going to get a water, air, and fire node online then and build the Tower of Elements for the bound elemental defender. Thanks for the tips!

 

[Brokenbone]

Regarding dispelling nodes, I often keep some caster safe someplace with Dispel Magic before taking the step of getting rid of my very last Metamagic node. That "tucked away" caster, if he were to die, well... no more resetting your nodes, and if no one has already started on a Metamagic path, you'll need a fresh one from someplace (conquer, discover, or Rites of Oghma). End up giving him a name I can remember like "Nodebreaker" so I don't accidentally send him into more dangerous turf, better than just "MAGE."

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

dwarven druids, that's a good one. I rarely play Khazad, but I remember Monkeyfinger, who sounds like he's one of the best Khazad players around, stresses out that they are monsters. myconids too. paralize enemies, then crush them? yes please! nevermind that going down the recon path and getting commune with nature, which sounds a lot like an elvish tech, is kinda out of flavour for the greedy dwarves

 

[Breez]

I concede stacking earth hvy for Druids can make sense... I just never bother so I don't think along those lines.

 

[popejubal]

I generally build 1 Metamagic node as soon as I hit Sorcery (and I'll often even leave a node "blank" for this purpose) and then when an Adept hits 10 XP, I give him Metamagic I, promote to Mage and give him Metamagic II. If I have two Adepts that are at/near 10 XP, I might do the same for the second Adept, but that's all. I will then immediately Dispel Magic the Metamagic node and build what I really need.

Two Mages with Dispel Magic is plenty. Even one is enough if you just remember to keep him well away from enemy lines and have a Guardsman unit hang out with him when he goes anywhere dangerous.

Dispel Magic is a crucial spell, but just like Trust and Resurrection, you only need one unit capable of casting it to get the full benefit.

I'll actually go nuts on Node micromanagement. Dispel some of my nodes and build so that I have 2 each of several mana types. Build a bunch of Adepts. Then dispel again and build so that I have 3 of several other mana types. Now I can upgrade any units to Mage that are ready. When I hit Strength of Will, I go on a massive Mana restructuring program so that I have 4 Mind mana if I didn't have Mind before or 0 Mind mana if I already did 3 Mind for the Mage phase. Whatever I end up with, I'll push very hard to end up with 4 of an Element (Water and Air are my favorite) and either 4 Nature or 4 Mind immediately before I upgrade to Archmage.

Yes, it is a mess to try to restructure my entire empire's mana sources and I sometimes have to let myself be pushed into whatever element I can bully from a vassal, but it's worth the effort when I end up with 4 Archmages that can each cast Vitalize when I'm not at war, and then Summon Smackdown with Spell Extension II when I'm at war and maybe even Summon Mistform if I'm getting ready for war while still leaving slots open for a couple of Combat promotions, maybe Earth II for Stoneskin and if at all possible, Mind III.

Here's a quick breakdown with 6 Mana nodes. This generally happens in batches and I play on fairly big maps, so it's not unreasonable for me to make this happen without too much pain.

Step 1:
Create 1-2 dozen Adepts with
3 Palace mana and 3 "borrowed" mana from Vassal.
6 nodes copy each of the mana types that I have so that each Adept starts with 6 free level 1 spheres.
(If I have a duplicate mana from my vassal, then 2 nodes are free to make another mana pair).


Step 2:
When it's Mage upgrade time, blank out duplicate mana except for the ones that I really want to have level 2 spells. 6 Mana Nodes generally becomes 2 sets of 3 mana that I did not have in my original 6. I will go for 3 Air mana even if I already had 2 Air mana before because Maelstrom is such an amazingly useful spell.

I can sometimes even push this into 3 sets of 3 mana, but I'd generally rather have 2 sets of 3 mana that I did not have before.

Step 3:
Clear the nodes again and build nodes so that I have 4 of some elemental mana and either 4 Mind or 4 Nature. If I did Mind and Nature before on step 2, then I'll see if I can scrounge up 4 Shadow mana because Summon Mistform is a lovely way to mess with Civs that I am not at war with. I will generally have to do this with mana that I already have from myself or my vassal, so making two differing sets of mana types during step 2 is especially helpful since it's just a single promotion to get the rank 3 spell once I go Archmage.

That's quite a bit of effort, but you end up with 2-3 "free" rank III spells, 2-3 "free" rank 2 spells and 6-ish "free" rank 1 spells. That leaves a lot more promotions available for Combat I-V and Spell Extension I/II and Mobility. You can also rework the mana to pump out a decent number of "utility Adepts" with 0 XP who grab Mobility from their Adept promotion and still have the more useful level 1 spells like Summon Skeleton, Haste, Enchanted Blade, Rust, Inspiration, Treetop Defense, Spring, Courage and Blaze. Pump out a few of these guys and you get utility spells that don't "use up" your "real" spellcasters and you even get some free Assassin protection.


Also, remember that you can have 8 Archmagi if you give 4 of them Death III and let them become Liches.

 

[Feyd Rautha]

I'm still trying to decipher what I'm reading above (still new to the mod), but a few quick things...

1.) If I have an unpromoted adept (my initial one or two who just grab mobility and set about converting nodes), and I get access to a second mana source does he automatically learn the spell or is that only adepts that I make while the two sources are active?

2.) For "node monkey" adepts/mages I was thinking two stacks of two? A dispel magic mage (mobility [free], Water I, Body I, Metamagic I, Metamagic II [free], Water II*) paired with a "Buff" adept/mage (mobility [free], Spirit I, Law I, Enchant I, Enchant II [free], Law II**) popping about clearing nodes to what I want them to be? Maybe an apprentice dragged along to speed up the node conversions?

* Water II since he's so valuable and if he's getting chased down he can pop onto a lake to escape. Also while apprentices are being built he can clear desert terrain.
** I went with Law II because if worse comes to worse an Einhejar could be a good distraction while my mages run away (or if they accidentaly end next to a barb or other hostile the Einherjar can serve as a meat shield. This could also be switched with Water II, but while Mage 1 is clearing deserts this guy is going to local troops and buffing them up.

3.) What's so great about liches again?

 

[Breez]

I am still learning myself but here is the answers as I understand them

1) When you get a send mana node of the same type that you already have all future Adepts start with the level 1 spell from that sphere. Once you lose/trade away/dispel one of those nodes futurer adepts will not get that automatically anymore but anyone that has it already keeps it.

2) I just use adepts to set up nodes. Most do one or 2 in their entire life, when my culture expands to get a new one I just make a new adept and run him out there. If a barb or enemy kills them I have not lost much of an investment... it is sort of like an initiation they have to survive to move on I NEVER take Water 2. There are better spells out there. That means I never get water elementals but that is fine I will use one of the other 17 summons at tier 3 heh

3) I believe you can have 4 archmages (only ones that can cast level 3 spells) if you make them a lich (level 3 death spell I think) they no longer count against the max count of 4. You can have 4 archmages and 4 Lichs there fore doubling your max magic users. Personally i never bother the game ends before I make my 4th archmage for me typically.

 

[cyther]

Edit: Ninjas!

1) Only for ones made when he was built. It also triggers when they upgrade into a mage or archmage.

2) That would be good enough.

3) Liches free up more archmage spots. If you have four archmages you can't make another. If you have three and a lich you will be able to upgrade another mage into an archmage.