Mansa Musa UU... Better than axe rush?

[DementedAvenger]

Skirmishers are best for choking the bad guys. Give one a double guerrila promotion and fortify him on a hill next to an enemy capital, and he'll have over 8 strength, not to mention the 2 first strikes, which make it take a LOT more units to kill him. If he does get killed, your enemy will have wasted many times more hammers in units than the single skirmisher cost.

 

[opensilo]

No. I'm still glad i researched it for chop rushing and slavery, and then i research something else, like archery or horseback riding or iron working.

How do you decide which of those three--arch, HBR, IW--to go for next?

From the resources available. If there's a source of horse available an early horse archer rush is feasible so you can go archery horseback riding. If not then you have to go for iron working.

Perhaps the question was unclear, so I'll rephrase it. If you research bronze and find yourself without any accessible copper, your best troop is still the warrior you started with. You have three research options that enable better troops: archery, horseback riding, and iron working. The first enables the weakest troop, but is the only one you are assured of being able to build after you research the tech. The other two can leave you in the same no-resource situation you are in with copper. And then, you still only have warriors to defend your emprire. Better get those archers ASAP or you'll be hitting "Escape to the Main Menu."

My general decision tree is:

If I have lots of aggressive neighbors, I go for archery.

If I have lots of barb spawning regions, I go for horses.

If I'm hemmed in by jungle, I go for iron working.

These can be mutually conflicting, so I wonder how others approach the "oh no, no copper!" realization.

With respect to the original topic in the thread, if I'm Mansa, I'd go for archery after finding no copper. But wouldn't aim for them otherwise. Copper and the other benefits of bronze working are too great to delay.

 

[smatt834]

Hello all,

Just like to add that the Mansu UU is a very effective choking unit. Sending them in groups of 3 or 4 to prevent a neighbor from ever getting their copper is very effective. Not to mention that this works just as well with the normal archer unit. And if someone or the AI is unprepared for these stacks of resource and land holders, or haven't yet made enough axemen, your superior numbers will literally choke them until you feel like acclimating their civilization into yours. Skipping archery is quite the opposite of foolish in many ways.

 

[Dantius II]

Dantius, how come you didn't just take out Alexander?

I did eventually. I had no interest in taking him out at first because of the distance the city was from my capital. If I had Athens, I would have to pay out the butt in maintenance fees to keep it. I wanted to expand out to Athens a bit first but continue to prevent Alexander from expanding. I did capture it, and it became an important center to my southwest due to its size, but what I meant by "rest of game" was the rest of his game.

 

[Zombie69]

How do you decide which of those three--arch, HBR, IW--to go for next?

Many factors :

- If you have lots of jungle, iron working makes more sense.
- If your civ starts with some prerequisites, horseback riding makes more sense.
- If you're more of a gambler (higher risks since the tech costs more, but higher reward since swordsmen are better), go for iron working.
- If you're playing against Greece (phalanx), don't go for horse archers.
- If you're playing against Romans (praetorians), don't go for horse archers. Axemen are the only thing that can stand up against them.
- If there's no possibility of expansion, go for archery to survive barbarian axemen. Don't expect archers (or even skirmishers) to let you take out civs at higher levels, but at least they'll help you survive.
- If you play Romans (praetorians), go for iron working. If you play a civ that has an early mounted UU, go for horseback riding.

There may be more that i forgot as i typed this.

 

[Oggums]

When I have no copper, I generally go for Iron Working next, unless there is a more immediate need to defend myself, in which case I'll go with Archery first. I rarely, if ever, bother with horseback riding.

The "immediate need" meaning I have aggressive, nut-job neighbors who are nearby, such as Montezuma or Alexander. Then, it's archery->iron working. In most cases, I'll stick with my fog-busting Warriors to deal with barbs and go straight for iron working.

 

[sooooo]

If you want to chop-rush units for an early attack but don't want to rely on Copper/Iron/Horses, it's better to play with Montezuma (Jaguars) then Mansa Musa. Jaguars are cheap (35 hammers), don't need resources and are better than axemen for raiding cities defended by archers. Monty's aggressive trait doesn't hurt either!

 

[Wodan]

No. Archery is not a prerequisite to anything. It's what we call a dead end tech.

It's a prereq for some units (Horse Archer).

Wodan

 

[Wodan]

- If there's no possibility of expansion, go for archery to survive barbarian axemen.

How does that happen? If you've expanded everywhere, there's no fog to spawn barbs.

Unless you're saying, there's no expansion that's worth your while. e.g., ice or non-river tundra.

Wodan

 

[maltz]

Mansa Musa's UU is probably the worst UU aggressively, but they can be used aggressively when Mansa Musa is your neighbor.

You can bribe some aggressive AI to waste their swordsman / axeman / spearman on Mansa Musa. They will suffer huge losses and you can either backstab them, or concentrate on somewhere/thing else.

 

[BenniusCaesar]

Why does MM always go so well in tech!? It's not fair, in real life he would be trampled over by civs like Japan, America, China & Greece!

 

[cabert]

Why does MM always go so well in tech!? It's not fair, in real life he would be trampled over by civs like Japan, America, China & Greece!

first it's a game, not real life
second he does so well because he trades a lot more than other leaders, and is financial

 

[Albian]

Many factors :

- If you have lots of jungle, iron working makes more sense.
- If your civ starts with some prerequisites, horseback riding makes more sense.
- If you're more of a gambler (higher risks since the tech costs more, but higher reward since swordsmen are better), go for iron working.
- If you're playing against Greece (phalanx), don't go for horse archers.
- If you're playing against Romans (praetorians), don't go for horse archers. Axemen are the only thing that can stand up against them.
- If there's no possibility of expansion, go for archery to survive barbarian axemen. Don't expect archers (or even skirmishers) to let you take out civs at higher levels, but at least they'll help you survive.
- If you play Romans (praetorians), go for iron working. If you play a civ that has an early mounted UU, go for horseback riding.

There may be more that i forgot as i typed this.

How about beelining straight to elephants and catapults (engineering?) When I start with ivory this always seems to work pretty well on noble and prince at least. comments?

 

[Gherald]

Beelining construction is a good idea if you have Ivory. Especially if you are not Agg.

If I have lots of aggressive neighbors, I go for archery.

If I have lots of barb spawning regions, I go for horses.

Note that you need archery for horse archers anyway, so archery should come first in either case.

 

[Zombie69]

It's a prereq for some units (Horse Archer).

Wodan

And crossbowmen and longbowmen i believe. But i meant it's not a prereq for any tech. Of course i know it's a prereq for some units. I already said i get it late to access some units!

 

[KrikkitTwo]

first it's a game, not real life
second he does so well because he trades a lot more than other leaders, and is financial

Not to mention when MM was around, Greece was long gone from the world stage, and the territory of America was in the Stone Age.

 

[Chinetter]

Mansa Musa's UU is probably the worst UU aggressively,

I've found the skirmisher to be a very good UU in tightly-packed multiplayer games. I can often research archery and have a few of these built before a close neighbor has found copper and gotten some axemen built; in that case a few modestly-promoted skirmishers can inflict some real pain or even take my neighbor's capital. I've also won a couple of multiplayer games because an early-rushing neighbor is unpleasantly surprised at how strong my city defenses are so early in the game, and after his assault force impales itself I get to counterattack.