Maps Less Accurate Please (let's make exploration funnier)

eddie_verdde

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Cartography as we know it today wasn’t developed until 19th century. Before that, maps were very inaccurate, with lots of imprecision in land features, distances, etc. which is normal, since there were no apropriate instruments to measure distances, heights, etc. correctly.

So, I find weird when I trade maps with a civilization in another continent during the Middle Ages, and I immediately know exactly how far it is, and all the details of its territory.

I also dislike the fact that by approximately 1350 AD I already know the geography of the entire world.

Maybe the game would be more interesting and challenging if the world map would be known in detail only in the modern age.

Nevertheless, through diplomacy or spying, civs could become aware of some important features of foreign lands, such as valuable resources, or location of important cities. Through diplomacy we could choose to trade important locations, instead of just trading the whole territory or world map.
 
The answer lies in giving units a range.

If they stray too far from their motherland, they die off -
Research into logistics or applied techs could be employed to increase range...

:)
 
your idea is interesting, especially when we think about those endless journeys of caravels around the globe without stepping on land...in real life that would be impossible...however I don't see how your idea could solve the problem of "perfect maps"...what I dislike in previous civ games, especially CIV3 is that you hardly need to explore the world by your own because most of knowledge of the world map is achieved through diplomacy...and I find very unrealistic the fact that in ancient times civs can know exactly all the details of foreign lands through diplomacy...
 
The map could be distorted in the map view, until an actual unit from your CIV cartographs it.

The use of 3D rendered worlds in CIV4 may open new doors...

But I reckon they will stick to a world type or random map and hopefully make it harder to map it.

All I care about is the map being giant!
I want no cruddy Empire Earth miniture battlefield maps!

I want the world!

:D
 
CurtSibling said:
The map could be distorted in the map view, until an actual unit from your CIV cartographs it.

that's exactly what I mean :)
 
Neither should resources be so easy to find, knowledge of them should not be the only requirement of finding them.

A unit might have a small chance of finding a known resource in the tile they are fortified on, not if they only are passing it.
Workers should have a bigger chance of discovering a resource in a square they are working in.
Cities should be able to detect resources within its radius, but only on those squares that they inhabit.

Maps should not be accurate until later in the game, therefore you should only be able to trade known territory, perhaps you should be able to trade maps for a single city our outpost or even resources.

And yes, units should have a limited range from their borders or they should have a chance of suffer death(damage).

Early naval units should have a greater chance of suffering damage even within a relatively short distance, but should be fast enough to even still be the most effective way of exploration in ancient times. In essence, this will make costal civilizations more powerful early on if trade is modeled correctly between cities.
 
Yep, my thoughts exactly guys! In a number of threads, I have suggested the following things to make the game a HELL of a lot more interesting:

1) Units have a range outside of 'friendly' territory (be it a city or a national border). The further a unit is from home, the more 'degraded' its performance becomes (morale, AS/DS and Firepower), and the more likely it is to start losing HP. Such units are prone to die, disband or be destroyed by hostile 'natives' (minor civs).

2) A non-exploratory units optimal range is HALF normal if entering 'virgin' territory (i.e., an area which is still blacked out), and ALL units have half normal range in ENEMY territory (i.e. inside an enemy border).

3) From the outset of the game, all resources can POTENTIALLY be discovered on ANY explored portion of the map. The chance of a resource being visible, however, would depend on factors such as how far away you are from being able to USE the resource in question, how much money you invest in 'prospecting', and the proximity of cities and/or the presence of terrain improvements on the resource in question. The chance of discovering a resource will also play a role in how LARGE the resource is.

4) You do NOT see the movement of ENEMY (i.e. non-allied) units UNLESS it would realistically be visible to you. The distance between their units and yours, the 'visibility' stat of your unit, the 'profile' stat of their unit, the terrain occupied by both units AND whether your units are in an outpost or fort (an unoccupied outpost has a chance of detecting enemy movement, or boosts the 'visibility' of any unit occupying it) will determine whether or not you can see enemy movement. Under this system sneak attacks and ambushes would be possible, as a unit (or units) could 'hide' in an appropriate terrain type.

5) At the outset of the game, you begin in the CENTRE of the MAP (from your perspective), as you discover more of the map, and as your map-making and exploration technology improves, your position on the map adjusts to become closer to its 'REAL-WORLD' position! By the Late Industrial age (at the latest), the map should appear as it REALLY is.

6) Degrees of Harsh terrain. For instance, tundra should come in 3 varieties, with each having a successively worse movement and range penalty. Same with jungles, mountains, deserts and even oceans. Improving technology would help to allow units to successively ignore each degree of penalty in turn, leaving only the harshest form of terrain with a movement penalty by the modern age! This will allow much more of the map to remain undiscovered, for a much greater period of time, and would make scouts and explorers even MORE important in opening up new territories!!

These changes would have the effect of making the game much less cut and dried. For instance, the early game would actually have to focus as much on scouts as it does on settlers-thus reducing rexing and Infinite City Sleaze. Having large territories would also no longer be a guarantee of having sufficient resources. Instead it would now rely on strong culture (national borders make resources more likely to be discovered), good infrastructure (mines, farms and roads) and investment in the search for resources. In addition, you would have to be much more alert regarding your borders, as small expeditionary forces could sneak across your borders without you knowing, or lay in hiding ready to attack the first unit that passes their way!
Also, at the beginning of the game, you would have NO CLUE about where you are in relation to the rest of the world! Are you near the equator? Close to the poles? Close to the ocean? Are any other continents nearby, or are you on an island?
See how much more INTERESTING the process becomes ;)!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
 
The only thing I could see to interfere with maps accuracy would involve hiding resources that you're no longer nearby, until the 19th century. The explorer might notice some iron or even saltpeter lying about, but by the time he leaves the area, it's hard to know if it was still there.

Other than that, there's an idea floating about to require explorers to return to a city to get your map assembled. But it does sound annoying. I mean, I've got a high tolerance threshold and I'd like to see the early and midgame stretched out with more challenges, but I'm not sure this one is it.
 
well if you would have to bring the explorer to a city to reveal its explorations you would have to do the same with every other units, specially boats...although this is more realistic I also don't know if I like the idea...
 
I agree with the idea that your civ is the center of the world until certain techs come about. It would also eliminate the advantage of knowing which direction to explore, since all look equally close to the equator/pole. Maybe your orientation should be different from other civs as well. North may be different depedning on how your civ grew and makes maps. This way your view of the enemy is totally different, with you always being on top.
 
Aussie_Lurker said:
4) You do NOT see the movement of ENEMY (i.e. non-allied) units UNLESS it would realistically be visible to you. The distance between their units and yours, the 'visibility' stat of your unit, the 'profile' stat of their unit, the terrain occupied by both units AND whether your units are in an outpost or fort (an unoccupied outpost has a chance of detecting enemy movement, or boosts the 'visibility' of any unit occupying it) will determine whether or not you can see enemy movement. Under this system sneak attacks and ambushes would be possible, as a unit (or units) could 'hide' in an appropriate terrain type.

All these are great ideas, but I question this one. I got the impression a unit represents 100 or other such large number of troops. I'd like to see a stealth stat; you could pay more to get more stealh - at the cost of movement or armor.

Still, the Greeks did hide an entire Army near Troy after presenting the wooden horse. Maybe you could detect troops on or adjacent to worked tiles (at the beginning of your turn). That way the enemy wouldn't know where your looking and a bit more strategy would worked tile selection. Pillaging would aid in your stealth. Or this more MM?
 
Disorienting the map isn't a bad idea. Heaven knows that if I start out pretty far south, I push north hard, and take some of the space closer to me for granted. They could find a mapy layout that could accomplish that.
 
Some very interesting ideas.

As well as movement penalties, I think more terrain should be unsettleable in the early ages, some of that becoming settleable through tech later on. (With this, colonies should actually be useful.)
 
Well, thats what I was talking about when I mentioned 'visibility' and 'profile', Khan! A stack of 4-5 units in a single hex will be pretty hard to miss if you have a unit only 2 hexes away. However, terrain would also play a part. What you also have to remember is that a Civ3 hex is also HUGE!! I guess my big beef is that you are automatically omniscient about the parts of the map which are revealed to you, wheras I would much prefer to have a 'fog of war' situation.

As for what DH_Epic is talking about, I don't think the unit should neccessarily have to return to a city, returning to a fort, colony or outpost would be JUST as good. Perhaps an alternative is that you can still SEE the map but, until the explorer gets back to 'civilization', those newly exposed areas still count as 'unexplored' for the purposes of movement by non-exploration units! Also, if the explorer is killed or lost in some way, then everything that has been explored becomes black again! I don't know, I just love the idea of your explorer going deep into a jungle, revealing its secrets to you, then getting killed by 'natives' and suddenly leaving you in the dark once more-on a slightly chilling note, I might add ;)!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
 
I totally agree!

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I agree with the idea that your civ is the center of the world until certain techs come about. It would also eliminate the advantage of knowing which direction to explore, since all look equally close to the equator/pole. Maybe your orientation should be different from other civs as well. North may be different depedning on how your civ grew and makes maps. This way your view of the enemy is totally different, with you always being on top.
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That would be like too realistic, like trying to hurt yourself everytime your civ lost a warrior in combat, or mouse-cliking caravans everywhere to transport excess shield around.

It's also not that the Map is too good in some cases, but that the unit control is assumed to be too precise in most eras. It should be possible to sneak units past units undetected, even by adjacent tiles in some cases (like forest), without special abilities.

And maybe if a unit travels too far off a road, the terrain should randomally be confused/misoriented, especially when travelling outside of your civ's cultural territory.

Someone else said units have range. I agree sort of---they should require supply lines or lose hit points and die----so they can't travel too far outside of your civ's area. With a RoP, your neighbor could act as supply line though.


eddie_verdde
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Join Date: Jan 2005
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well if you would have to bring the explorer to a city to reveal its explorations you would have to do the same with every other units, specially boats...although this is more realistic I also don't know if I like the idea...
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I love many of the ideas being proposed in this thread. I just posted on alt.games.civ3 a long list of ideas I have been nursing over the last year for improvments and new ideas for Civ 4 I would love to see. Some of them involve these mapping issues you are discussing here. I agree (or propose):

1) You should always start at the center of your world universe with no idea where you are globally

2) It should take longer to explore and hard to explore further out...keeping explorers alive long enough to travel far should be rare in early eras

3) Early maps from other civs should be either inaccurate or sparse in information. Maybe territory info should be available from the nation itself and not from any other. World maps would be more general with borders and some general features perhaps and only upon setting foot there oneself or with futuer better technology shoud accuracy and detail improve.

4) Traveling through difficult terrain slows you down and makes it more likely you will suffer damage or death...like the plague in jungles. Suffering cold in the tundra and heat in desert could be figured in, etc. Bandits in addition to barbarians would be found along roads or outside borders and towns.

5) Early era city building should be much more limited to closer-by locations for both military and cultural reasons. Cities in general should have stricter requirements for resources and terrain to be possible and maintainable. Perhaps minor resource areas would permit towns. settlements and colonies which could never grow beyond a small size...good for marketplaces and managing some local resources or luxuries for commerce primarily. There should be good stretches of wilderness left unpopulated and unroaded (roads should be difficult and expensive to build through most terrains, especially mts.). I dislike the way cities can be built anywhere and suck up every square inch of real estate with no nature or wilderness left eventually. This is A) ugly, and B) very unworldlike in reality.

6) Following from idea 5, forests should not be cut down for a one time shield reward. They should generate a certain amount of ongoing production over the ages just as any maintained forest can be harvested every so many decades...or they can be set aside as parkland for cultural and happiness rewards. I hate being obliged to cut down all my forests and denude the planet to maximize production. More natural landscape should be left intact, though still generating some kind of commerce and production and food appropriately.

This is meandering into city management and some of the many other ideas I have.

7) Anyone notice how utterly worthless Explorers became in Civ III due to world being known and populated so early on in most games? What happened to 15th century exploration of undiscovered continents by galleons, etc.? Farflung parts of the world should remain remote and very difficult to find and reach safely till much later in time.

I'm going to make another post about some other mapping/terrain aspects.

Doug
 
Synergy67 said:
7) Anyone notice how utterly worthless Explorers became in Civ III due to world being known and populated so early on in most games? What happened to 15th century exploration of undiscovered continents by galleons, etc.? Farflung parts of the world should remain remote and very difficult to find and reach safely till much later in time.
Doug


yep...one of the things I dislike most in CIV3 is that the age of discoveries and exploration simply doesn't exist...by the time I can build "explorers" I've already had knowledge of 90% of the world, mostly trough diplomacy...and the remainder 10% is mostly water...so explorers are useless...

this issue needs great improvements
 
Eddie, you nailed a problem I have with the game too. The intro part of the game is so driven that you end up finishing the main part of the game by the middle ages. You can cover the world and create the basic borders that will define the conflicts for the globe, all by the time you discover gunpowder. It affects exploration and war -- the two most important parts of the game as of Civ 3 (if by default).

The 'real' world was covered with even scattered people only by the middle of the industrial age. That's a difference of about 150 turns of Civ gametime (from the middle ages), or a quarter of the game.

Of course, coming up with a way to complicate exploration and stretch it out may be difficult to agree on. The 'real' world has events that some people just wouldn't want modelled in Civ 4.
 
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