Marijuana and isolated spaces

[CaptainF]

Outdoor grown marijuana cannot compete in the current market. The "dangerous growers setting traps that kill hikers" "environmentally insensitive growers damaging the ecosystem" and other such arguments are all obsolete.

That's the point. It doesn't take a "farmer" to produce a higher dollar value of marijuana than rice. A meaningful statistic would be a comparison of weight, or acreage. If you would get off your knee jerk defensiveness you would have understood that.

Farmers aren't getting in the marijuana business. Outdoor grown marijuana can't compete effectively in the current market, and it doesn't take acreage to produce a cost effective crop. Quite the opposite in fact.

I think that anyone who is concerned about the quality of the product (hence, everyone) is already eliminating outdoor grown sources. I doubt there is a legal dispensary in California that has any outdoor grown available because they generally have product standards that outdoor grown can't meet.

My point is that talking about "marijuana farms" and/or "farmers" is an absurdity.

IF it were possible to grow quality marijuana on a farm it would produce about five million dollars per acre. So, yeah, farmers would absolutely love to make the switch, but no one is expecting a sudden return to widespread use of hempen rope, which is the only viable use for marijuana grown by the acre. Marijuana growers are not farmers. They deal in square footage, not acreage.

There are undoubtedly some clowns out there causing exactly the environmental problems described and nibbling on the fringes of the market; selling poor quality product to buyers they hope to never see again. The market will take care of this problem without any specific "is my weed produced in an environmentally friendly manner?" investigation required.

Bottom line: unless you are buying crap it was grown in a warehouse and had no contact with the environment, much less harmful impact on it.

Uhh...what? No, this is not true at all.

Southern Oregon grows the vast majority of the marijuana for the Oregon Medical Marijuana Program, and I promise you it ain't garbage. Medical patients generally don't like to ingest anything but the absolute best, after all.

Of course, you could argue that these outdoor growers are different from the Mexican cartels/mafias which grow huge 1,000+ plant operations out in the middle of nowhere. In contrast, the hippies growing weed for medical patients in Southern Oregon do so in their own backyard, usually with ≤100 plants.

I mean, sure, even the best outdoor grown buds probably won't look all that "pretty" in comparison to indoor grown, but when you smoke them they can be just as, if not tastier and stronger than a lot of indoor grown buds, which sometimes can be crappy.

Lots of indoor growers for example don't flush their plants before harvesting which can result in a bitter, chemical taste when you smoke it.

So, no, outdoor growing will always have a part to play in the marijuana market, even the high-end/boutique market. I suggest you get some weed from Southern Oregon/Northern California and see for yourself.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Uhh...what? No, this is not true at all.

Southern Oregon grows the vast majority of the marijuana for the Oregon Medical Marijuana Program, and I promise you it ain't garbage. Medical patients generally don't like to ingest anything but the absolute best, after all.

Of course, you could argue that these outdoor growers are different from the Mexican cartels/mafias which grow huge 1,000+ plant operations out in the middle of nowhere. In contrast, the hippies growing weed for medical patients in Southern Oregon do so in their own backyard, usually with ≤100 plants.

I mean, sure, even the best outdoor grown buds probably won't look all that "pretty" in comparison to indoor grown, but when you smoke them they can be just as, if not tastier and stronger than a lot of indoor grown buds, which sometimes can be crappy.

Lots of indoor growers for example don't flush their plants before harvesting which can result in a bitter, chemical taste when you smoke it.

So, no, outdoor growing will always have a part to play in the marijuana market, even the high-end/boutique market. I suggest you get some weed from Southern Oregon/Northern California and see for yourself.

Outdoor growing is susceptible to far too many variables that affect resin production, so I would think hippies with less than hundred plant grows would make room for them indoors. The days when Northern California elite was up against bulk imported dirt weed ended a long time ago. Putting them up against modern hydro in controlled conditions isn't fair, or practical.

 

[CaptainF]

Outdoor growing is susceptible to far too many variables that affect resin production, so I would think hippies with less than hundred plant grows would make room for them indoors. The days when Northern California elite was up against bulk imported dirt weed ended a long time ago. Putting them up against modern hydro in controlled conditions isn't fair, or practical.

This is true, there are more variables in outdoor growing, but outdoor growing has advantages in comparison to indoor:

*Outdoor growing produces WAY more yield. A good indoor grower can get maybe about 4-6 ounces of product off each plant, where as a good outdoor grower in the right conditions can get 4-6 pounds.

*Outdoor growing doesn't require the construction of a building to house the plants, nor the use of expensive lights/ventilation/hydroponics systems.

*Some strains are much easier to grow outdoors than indoors, like Sativas. I remember going to a medical grow many years ago, and some of those Sativa plants were upwards of 10-15 feet tall. It's pretty hard to grow that in most indoor spaces.

I mean, if anything, Southern Oregon grows more outdoor weed year after year. Hmm, why would they keep producing more and more if it was obsolete in today's market? If anything, it seems to me that outdoor growing will be a lot more viable in the future when growers no longer need to hide in the woods. They can start planting out in the open like people in Southern Oregon are already doing.

It's going to be very hard to meet the sheer demand of the market for product by only growing indoors, if not completely impossible.

Marijuana growers in rural Oregon stepping into limelight

Another somewhat old, but good article.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Maybe so. I think production per plant is another somewhat obsolete measure though. Production per square foot and length of grow cycle are the core measures for production.

When (not if) current state of the art production methods reach Oregon it may change your perspective. As you note there are initial expenses to consider, which makes the change in the legal environment even more important than it is for outdoor growers. It's a convenience for an outdoor grower to move from their secret location to their back yard. For someone who is investing in equipment it is more important to know the equipment life is not a variable in the hands of law enforcement.

 

[Lay_Lay]

The demand for weed is no where close to being met.
There are millions of people who would buy a joint, but they don't feel like they have a realistic way to get one.
We've all been there. You run out, you call all your friends - no one is home. You are starting to wonder if it will be all weekend long.
Life shouldn't be unnecessarily challenging. You should be able to just go buy some weed.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

The demand for weed is no where close to being met.
There are millions of people who would buy a joint, but they don't feel like they have a realistic way to get one.
We've all been there. You run out, you call all your friends - no one is home. You are starting to wonder if it will be all weekend long.
Life shouldn't be unnecessarily challenging. You should be able to just go buy some weed.

Move to California.

 

[CaptainF]

Maybe so. I think production per plant is another somewhat obsolete measure though. Production per square foot and length of grow cycle are the core measures for production.

Well, grow cycle is another relevant metric, but let's use the example I provided earlier to do some math:

Outdoor: (1 grow cycle/yr) 100 plants X 4lbs = 400lbs
Indoor: (3 grow cycles/yr) 100 plants X 3 = 300 X 4oz = 1200oz = 75lbs
Indoor: (4 grow cycles/yr) 100 plants X 4 = 400 X 4oz = 1600oz = 100lbs
Indoor: (6 grow cycles/yr) 100 plants X 6 = 600 X 4oz = 2400oz = 150lbs

Totally a hypothetical scenario, but somewhat reflected in reality. Indoor doesn't produce nearly as much, and the cost to do so (financially and use of resources) is a lot higher as well. And there is no guarantee that indoor grown will automatically be of higher quality than outdoor, despite what popular perception is. There is lots of really bad indoor grown stuff and lots of really good outdoor stuff, it just depends, like any other agricultural crop, on who is growing it and how much of a greenthumb they have.

When (not if) current state of the art production methods reach Oregon it may change your perspective. As you note there are initial expenses to consider, which makes the change in the legal environment even more important than it is for outdoor growers. It's a convenience for an outdoor grower to move from their secret location to their back yard. For someone who is investing in equipment it is more important to know the equipment life is not a variable in the hands of law enforcement.

I mean, I don't want to sound like too much of a partisan Oregonian at this point, but Oregon has been a leader in "state of the art" marijuana production for 40+ years. We were the first state to decriminalize (1973) and one of the first states to adopt medical marijuana (1998) and of course full legalization recently. More specifically the weed business has been very big in Oregon since the 70s at least and has been known to produce some of the best in the world, like California. From wiki:

In 1988, due to the success of the DEA's Campaign Against Marijuana Planting in California, Oregon rivaled California nationally in cannabis production.[7] In the 1990s, Oregon was a national leader in indoor cannabis cultivation, along with California, Washington, Kentucky and South Florida.[8][9] For the decade ending in 1991, the DEA considered Oregon the "nation's cradle of indoor marijuana growing."[10] In 2006, Oregon was the fourth largest indoor cannabis producing state, and the tenth largest cannabis producing state overall.[11]

There's also an interesting court case that came out as a result:

Spoiler :

After a federal agent from the Department of the Interior used a thermal imaging device to determine that Danny Lee Kyllo was using grow lamps to grow marijuana in his Florence, Oregon home, the Supreme Court of the United States determined that the use of a thermal imaging device from a public vantage point to monitor the radiation of heat from a person's home was a "search" within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment, and thus required a warrant. Because the police in this case did not have a warrant, the Court reversed Kyllo's conviction for growing marijuana.

I think you are right in the sense that Oregon's productivity for marijuana will only increase with legalization, but we've already been a leader in that field for a while now, with indoor and outdoor growing. Even so, the majority of it is produced outdoors, and that won't be changing anytime soon. People around here are reeeeeaaallllyyy excited about the upcoming Fall harvest now that it's fully legal and can be sold in stores.

The demand for weed is no where close to being met.
There are millions of people who would buy a joint, but they don't feel like they have a realistic way to get one.
We've all been there. You run out, you call all your friends - no one is home. You are starting to wonder if it will be all weekend long.
Life shouldn't be unnecessarily challenging. You should be able to just go buy some weed.

What Tim said. Move to California, or really anywhere on the West Coast. Colorado wouldn't be a bad choice either.

 

[onejayhawk]

For what it may be worth, I am told that growing techniques are quire similar to tobacco. If it were legal, production could ramp up very quickly. One advantage, it is much less demanding of soil than the other weed.

J

 

[CaptainF]

More to the point of OP, it will be good now that it has been legalized in some areas that the water/pesticide/fertilizer usage can be monitored by a more strict regulating system that you don't get with prohibition. It is probably a lot better for the forests to have marijuana grown away from them rather than hidden in various clearings, that have to be ridden of trees and foliage to make room for the grow, sometimes destroying old growth in the process.

Some of the cartel grows they have found out here in Oregon have been very squalid, trash and fertilizers strewn about carelessly, trees cut down indiscriminately, along with irrigation draining the nearby rivers of water.

Some indoor growers have been careless with fertilizers and pesticides too however, in an attempt to cash in on a market with inflated prices due to illegality. Many of them have also been known to steal electricity to power the lights, but with legalization taking place in Colorado IIRC they have begun to require that indoor growing facilities derive a certain percentage of their electricity from "green" or "renewable" sources like solar or wind or something else eco-friendly.

Legalization and Regulation is always better than Prohibition.

 

[CaptainF]

Here are some photos I took off of Google Earth in areas around Grants Pass, Oregon. Gee, I wonder what's growing?

Spoiler :

And now for some more detailed aerial photos, from around Jackson County in Southern Oregon:

Spoiler :

 

[onejayhawk]

Legalization and Regulation is always better than Prohibition.

I would not go that far. So far as you are referring to something a person chooses for him/herself, you have a point. Some things are used only to influence or control another person, such as the various date rape drugs. Those should remain restricted.

J

 

[mrt144]

Amen Dawgphood001, a ton of indoor stuff is wonky and hermed out (although I like that because "free" seeds)

 

[Borachio]

Well, if it's simply a cash crop you're looking for, opium poppies are surely the thing to grow. Or coca. But I think coca is a tropical plant while even I've grown opium poppies (as a decorative plant) in my garden.

Spoiler :

And very tasty they were too. Oops! Did I say that?

 

[Farm Boy]

it just depends, like any other agricultural crop, on who is growing it and how much of a greenthumb they have.

Weather. Pest prevalence. Disease prevalence. Water quality. Soil quality. Strain quality. Latitude. Altitude. Etc.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Weather. Pest prevalence. Disease prevalence. Water quality. Soil quality. Strain quality. Latitude. Altitude. Etc.

And all of those variables can be eliminated by growing indoors. Not a viable solution for crops that produce a couple thousand dollars per acre, but for a "crop" that would produce five million dollars an acre (at the "limited" production of indoor plants) it is more than workable.

 

[CaptainF]

For what it may be worth, I am told that growing techniques are quire similar to tobacco. If it were legal, production could ramp up very quickly. One advantage, it is much less demanding of soil than the other weed.

J

Never grown it myself, but I have read up on it a bit and know people who grow/have grown. What I've always heard is that if you can grow tomatoes, you can grow pot.

I would not go that far. So far as you are referring to something a person chooses for him/herself, you have a point. Some things are used only to influence or control another person, such as the various date rape drugs. Those should remain restricted.

J

Nah, plenty of people like using GHB, a common date rape drug, for their own recreation.

Quaaludes were very popular in the 1970s and 80s as a party drug, but quaaludes have also been in the news recently as Bill Cosby's date rape drug of choice.

What should be illegal is drugging people without their knowledge or consent, no matter what the drug used happens to be. Drugs themselves, however, shouldn't be made illegal.

Amen Dawgphood001, a ton of indoor stuff is wonky and hermed out (although I like that because "free" seeds)

Weather. Pest prevalence. Disease prevalence. Water quality. Soil quality. Strain quality. Latitude. Altitude. Etc.

You're right. Even the best growers probably couldn't grow outdoor weed in places like Greenland, Iceland, Scandinavia, etc.

But by the same token, even in great climates for growing weed, like S. Oregon, N. California, Spain, West Virginia, Morocco, you still need to know what you are doing. If you don't know how to work with the plant, you won't produce anything worth smoking.

And all of those variables can be eliminated by growing indoors. Not a viable solution for crops that produce a couple thousand dollars per acre, but for a "crop" that would produce five million dollars an acre (at the "limited" production of indoor plants) it is more than workable.

No, not at all. Pretty much the only factors indoor growing avoids out of that list are "latitude" and "altitude".

If you grow indoors in a hot climate, better make sure you have a well ventilated grow room otherwise it will get far too hot to support the plants. And those grow lamps put out a lot of heat.

Growing indoors also means that you still have to be on the lookout for spider mites, mold, and other diseases and pests.

If you grow with soil indoors, you still need the right mix. If you grow hydroponically, you need the right quality of growing substrate. As for water, that's also a big concern. You can't just water weed plants with tap water from your sink. It has to be pH balanced and with the right amount of nutrients. If you use a hydroponics system, you have to clean your water reservoir tank every couple of weeks otherwise bacteria and nutrient imbalance will wreck your entire crop.

How Often Does a Hydroponics Tank Need to be Cleaned?

As mentioned earlier, certain strains you can't really grow indoors except in rare cases. Super tall Sativa plants (known for their energetic, "head high") can get upwards of 10+ feet tall and can't usually be grown in most buildings except for big warehouses. Most people that grow indoors grow Indica dominant plants (known for their drowsy, "couch lock" effect) which are more like bushy shrubs that grow wide as opposed to tall.

The main advantages of indoor growing are the ability to grow anywhere in the world, at any time of year, ("Latitude and Altitude") and to generate a "perpetual harvest".

Don't get me wrong, indoor growing will only become more popular in the future now that it's legal. Many people out there (like me) want to grow but don't have large parcels of land to do so outside, so we'll have to get some lights and clear out space in our closet. And there will also be many commercial indoor operations as well. But it will still involve many of the same challenges as growing any other sort of plant outside, maybe even more. Being an indoor grower often means that in addition to being a gardener you also have to be an electrician, plumber, carpenter, interior designer...

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Never grown it myself, but I have read up on it a bit and know people who grow/have grown. What I've always heard is that if you can grow tomatoes, you can grow pot.

Even if you can't grow tomatoes you might still be able to grow pot. There's a reason that it is called weed. However, good pot is a different question. And three things that affect potency are uncontrollable in an outdoor environment.

A plant is a plant, but what makes it a drug is THC in the resin that the plant produces to protect leaves and (even moreso) flowers from the sun. So sunlight promotes resin formation, and an indoor grow can effectively be a torture chamber for the flowering plant without concern for length of daylight or passing clouds.

A related factor that can't be controlled outdoors is rain. Those passing clouds that block the sun might double the problem by washing off the resin! Shoot down those clouds! Er...well...indoors is good.

The third thing is pollination. That plant with the flowers pumping out resin to protect them? Once they are fertilized it will shift to making seeds instead of resin. So, how to keep those little bugs that flit from flower to flower from fertilizing them too quickly? We're already busy with the guns shooting at clouds, so who has time for shooting bees and butterflies?

Indoors. Bugzapper. Tortured virgin plants. Yeah, creating a sustainable climate controlled environment is a task. Understanding the operation of a hydroponic system takes some o' that thar book larnin'. But such is the modern world.

 

[brennan]

Is this a good time to point out that inhaling the smoke from incinerated vegetation is highly likely to lead to health complications like lung cancer?

 

[onejayhawk]

Is this a good time to point out that inhaling the smoke from incinerated vegetation is highly likely to lead to health complications like lung cancer?

Smokers typically smoke 30 or more cigarettes a day (1 1/2 packs). Marijuana is usually more like 2-3, with 5 on a heavy day. It's a valid point, but the scale is simply different.

You can also avoid the issue by ingesting with food. Spaghetti anyone?

J

 

[brennan]

Consuming marijuana has also been associated with health risks i'm afraid. And afaik the stuff about pot smokers smoking less has no basis in fact.