Master of Myrror Fantasy Mod 2.0

Drift said:
Is this clear enough? I believe this is what I'm going to go with.


This is much better than the current ones in use.

Any chance of changing the Dark Elf icon too? As it is it just blends way to much into all the terrain types it can appear in (I swear that icon also moves!). Maybe i'm the only one, but i also find it hard to spot Goblins sometimes

Death mages:
First Zombie worker rates. I understand them beeing slow, but 25 seems to just be too slow
Second the Shadow Galley dosent upgrade to anything.
And on the Crypt, i've never seen the use in it, or the free 3.2.1 -1HP Crypt Skeleton it spwans, other than giving the AI magi' units an exp boost

edit Not sure if i should put it here or in the units thread, but on the Angel units dont rework life just to have them both, and just use the Seraphim instead
 
I'll think about the Crypts. They may be too weak.

I also decided to forget the whole "energy" concept. Shields are shields and that's it. However, I did rename gold mana everywhere I could find it mentioned. :)

Psyringe, don't slow down for me. More suggestions, the better. ;)

I've also fiddled with the resource icons a bit and continue to do so. Zombie Workers can be massed in huge numbers so the 25% will stay at the moment (just fixed their pediaentry that claimed 50%). Thanks for the shadow galley bug report Phant. :)

As for not reworking life units just to get the angels in... too late! :lol: I noticed that Paladin's graphics had annoying noise in them and as I tried to fix it with no success, I finally axed the unit and replaced it with Seraph. So nothing big.
 
Drift said:
...As for not reworking life units just to get the angels in... too late! :lol: I noticed that Paladin's graphics had annoying noise in them and as I tried to fix it with no success, I finally axed the unit and replaced it with Seraph. So nothing big.
You have problems with a lot of custom units using amb sound files. This doesn't work well as they're made for a specific unit. Thus it sounds as if half the units are using machine guns. :sad:
embryodead has fixed most sounds of custom units in WH, you would do well "stealing" ini files from there.

The new ocean looks better, of course, but I still don't like the shelfs. ;)
 
@mrtn

Hmm. Would ED mind if I did that? Probably not.

BTW, I'm not sure if you thought I was talking about Paladin sounds (I was talking about noise in the graphics, flickering pixels) but good thing that the subject came up. I've known many of the units don't have very good sounds and some of them don't have sounds at all, but haven't done anything about it yet. I'll see what I can do.
 
I think 75000 is going to be low and if people choose to play with points, they won't see the end game for the most part as either they (or an NPC) will run up points too fast. You have to also figure I play with less than the max positions as well. You figure if there are more positions, then there are more opportunities to control a VP location and run up more points that way. 75000 might be ok for smaller maps, but for the bigger ones (and I don't play on huge) it won't make it. I would recommend 10000.

Another reason is that looking at cultural victory conditions, none of us were close to a cultural victory and I was building about as many city improvements with culture as there was and also had a fair number of wonders as well. Perhaps a minor adjustment there would be good based on some other feed back, but maybe 75000 for global and leaving the 20k for the single city would work.

The assassin ability gives the attacker a choice of what to kill in the stack. They can't attack non-combatant units, so workers and catapults are safe. Honestly, I would change the last DE unit to a single movement point unit and give them the assassin ability. They are not that overpowered from the standpoint that you figure they would be using their ability to avoid the best defenders someone has and probably striking at mounted units for the most part or foot attackers. The mounted always have a chance to retreat if the combat goes against them and the foot attackers are not usually push overs and with no increase in hp pips for the DE's, they will have to choose their spots carefully.

The other thing with assassins is that they can't target a specific unit.. only unit names. Its a guessing game. If you haven never messed with it, you get a selection of units by name, but it does not show the health of each individual unit.

The advantage of doing this is it does add some flavor to the game while not screwing things up too terribly much. You still have to build other units to protect the DE's. The DE's can cause some problems for attackers and defenders alike. I totally understand if you want to skip it at this late date.
 
Here is a short write up I did on each position describing strengths/weaknesses, etc.

Take a look and see if this is something that might work for you. (Other comments welcome as well).
 

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@Klyden

I like the write up a lot. Couldn't have done that well myself, not by a long shot. :) Now I just need to figure out a way of implementing it in the most intuitive way.

I did give the Dark Elves the Stealth Attack. Now I'm considering their movement and attack values and of course their cost. Any suggestions? :)

I'll also heed your advice regarding the victory conditions.

Thank you once again. You've been an amazing asset to the mod. :)
 
Honestly, I think you leave the earlier foot units alone. (Maybe change the 6-2-1 to a 5-2-1). If they go for the defensive units, then their lack of hit points will hurt them in most cases (especially against Dwarfs and the Chaos units). If they try for offensive mounted units, unless those are in a city, those units have a chance to retreat from combat and against some of them (especially life units) again, the hit points come into play again. What they should be good against is offensive foot. (Chaos mages advancing with chaos warriors with a stack of devils are going to have some fun, but should not be too overbalanced).

Looking down the road, the very offensive mounted units are probably a bit much. Perhaps tone them down a bit (6 attack and 8 attack come to mind along with 2 movement for both). I think cost is good.

All in all, I think they will have some use and add some flavor. They will be somewhat of a bane against offensive units when they are defending and could pick off some offensive units in an enemy stack. Also handy is that, provided there are not too much of one unit, they could pick off a cripple in a stack as well. (Say a redlined unit that your main attacker did not get the job done on and it was the only one in the stack).
 
Stuff I've been doing lately:
- stole some ini files and sounds from embryodead. I'm eternally grateful E.D.
- edited some unit graphics. (Hellspawn is always red. Guardian's skin color is easier on the eyes.)
- Changed Magistrate to Elven Council. New graphics too.
- Made Lizardmen apart from Stegadon Rider amphibious. Replaced Toad Mage with Bow Skink and rearranged the units to "skink-> bow skink-> pike saurus-> sword saurus-> stegadon rider". Sorry to see Toady go. :(
- Gave Dark Elves stealth attack. Followed Klyden's suggestion on the rest of their stats.
- Edited race resource graphics somewhat.
- Changed Crypts to cost less, come earlier and spawn Crypt Skeletons every 8 turns. Crypt Skeletons themselves don't have hitpoint penalty any more.
- Warrior Monks spawn every 12 turns. (Klyden was playing an earlier version where Monasteries came several techs earlier - that's why only a small change)
- Added Klyden's excellent race descriptions (they are on the second page of mage descriptions with a "click 'more' for a detailed description of chaos mages" text on the first page.)
- Polished pediaentries. Fixed science advisor who got out of synch with the tech progress.
- Made forest planting available to everyone.
- As usual, some small stuff I can't remember now.

Only one more day. :) On a sadder note, I regret to inform you all that 1.0 will be available only as a complete download - no patching from beta version. Also, I'm going for a one download only. That means I'm bailing out of Net Art leaderheads so all that has to be done to install the mod is extract one zip (yes, .zip - not .rar) to Civ3\Conquests\Scenarios\

I'm not entirely comfortable with these compromises I've made regarding download size (zip instead of rar and own leaderheads instead of shared ones at Net Art), but I wanted to make the mod as easily approachable as possible. That means no need to download WinRAR in order to extract the files properly, no need to download several downloads (apart from possible patches) and extracting them to several places. Download size will be around 190-200MB.

Things are going pretty well in general. Just touching up stuff here and there. Most of the work has been done and what is left to make sure everything works, package the mod and pass it on to Thunderfall. I will try to upload it late tonight (european time) and hopefully Thunderfall will be able to transfer it to its final location tomorrow.
 
@Drift: Changes sound good :) Crypt skeletons need to be watched now, as you made them stronger in three different ways. Shouldn't be much of a problem though, because they *will* get obsolete ... but they can be very useful to give death mages an initial boost. I suspect that this initial boost is what's missing for the death mages sometimes - once they grow large, communal corruption becomes an advantage, but in the first stage of the game, when the empires are small and cities are closely together, it's a disadvantage. Stronger crypt skeletons could help the death mages through this stage.

Download size: Of course 200 MB is a lot for people on dialup, but the mod just is that large, I don't see any way around it. Even if you provide the leaderheads separately, people still had to download 150 MB - this is still a lot, it just doesn't save as much to make the hassle of providing different versions worthwhile imho.

Considering the Rar option: You could pack your mod into a self-extracting Rar file. This way you would have the better compression of rar, but the people wouldn't have to download and install rar itself. I'm not sure if that's better, just want to throw in another option. :)

A report about my Freya game will follow soon ... you were right that the happenenings on the eastern part of the map were interesting. :)
 
Whoa! Another game I'm having great fun with ... I have to say that I rate the replay value of "Master of Myrror" considerably higher than that of vanilla Civ3. I rarely play more than two games of Civ3 in a row, after the second game I always get the impression that the game starts to repeat itself. It doesn't matter that much who's across my borders, I'll probably meet some horsemen, spearmen and archers, and I know how to deal with them. MoM is different, with four different types of magic and several racial resources, you can never be sure what awaits you beyond your borders. You will be surprised more often and have to adapt more to the different strategies of your neighbours. I like that very much. :)

Back to topic...


4. The age of peace

After the last report, my game went on for rather uneventful 50 turns. Lo Pan and I both rebuilt the cities that we had taken from Rjak and upgraded our military. I was leading in score, had the largest empire (or so I thought), and I had the advantage of many racial resources, so I didn't want to start wars. Instead I built life trees and monoliths throughout my empire, fisheries in the coastal cities, and dwarven fortresses in border towns. In my core cities I started to produce hammerhands and giants. I figured that I already had an economic edge and that this edge would only grow the longer the peace lasted.

Tlaloc was holding still, concentrating on building wonders. I traded him my only men resource for more than 60 turns (at the moment he still has it) for between 55 and 75 gold per turn, with only a short pause to start building fisheries in my coastal towns. This way Tlaloc basically financed my military, I had exceeded my free unit support limit a while ago. Raven also didn't make any moves against me, he probably realized that he was weaker than me, and my main army was near his borders also.

The only one who broke the peace was Oberic. For reasons I don't know he apparently developed a grudge against me. Two times he sent several ships across Tlaloc's territory and along my border, to attack one of my weaker defended cities on the eastern coast. He couldn't harm me much this way, and his island was too far away to mount an effective attack against me, but his diplomatic actions paved the path for further changes.

One of this actions was that he made an alliance with Ariel in his first "war" against me. Ariel was already reduced to two cities, only one of them on the main continent, seven tiles away from my largest army, and I don't know what she was thinking. I took this city without much effort and made peace with her again. However I forgot to look after the defenses of my coastal cities, and I also forgot that Ariel had amphibious units. So I lost one city temporarily to her, which was no big deal (I regained it one turn later), but still bad because of the lost buildings in that city.

This conflict was solved easily and didn't interfere with my build-up efforts. The next one wasn't. But something else happened first: I built two sunhawks and tried to find a way to the eastern part of the map. The distance from the eastern tip of Raven's peninsula was just short enough to cross, and so I made contact with Vlad.

Vlad was big.

He started on a smaller continent together with Sss'ra and totally defeated him. Vlad had more territory than me, amassed culture with astounding speed (he had about the same amount of culture as myself, but his culture grew faster), and he was leading in score. I bought his worldmap and saw that Mordja owned another, slightly smaller continent to the north, fighting a war with Tauron, who had been reduced to four cities. Mordja had already defeated Merlin, who fled to his last city on a small island. During the next turns, Mordja took all of Tauron's cities.

So much to the difficulties of death mages. ;) It seems that I continued my trend to play games that run against the trends. ;)

Luckily, Vlad and especially Mordja were trailing a little in technology. I also didn't have anything to fear from them, because neither of them could cross the ocean between us.


5. Teaming up

Around turn 250, Oberic again declared war on me. He shipped a hellspawn, sorcerer and champion onto my east coast, but I was prepared because I saw him coming along my coast, an defeated this ... erm ... "invasion force". Again he couldn't harm me much, but his diplomatic actions became important: MPPs were available now, and Oberic made one with Lo Pan. A war between Lo Pan and me had seemed inevitable for quite some time now, and I was prepared, but I didn't want Tlaloc to grow stronger undisturbed while Lo Pan and I clashed. I also feared that either Oberic or Lo Pan managed to bring Tlaloc into their alliance. Fortunately I had finally gotten ahead of Tlaloc in research. So I bribed him int an MPP with me by giving him Life IX.

In the next turn, the world war broke loose. Within a single turn, Oberic attacked me, and Tlaloc declared war on him and attacked him, which of course prompted Lo Pan to declare war on Tlaloc as well. In the next turn, Lo Pan attacked Tlaloc so that I had to declare war on Lo Pan also. So now it's Oberic and Lo Pan against Tlaloc and me. The spirit of war even seemed to be contagious - Mordja declared war against Vlad at the same time.

It was a good thing that I had made contact with the two. I traded technology to them for 1000 gold each, which was enough money to upgrade my military (I had just researched Dwarves III, and against Lo Pan's chaos ettins every little advantage mattered).

I'm right in the middle of this war now, and things have been going well so far. I captured two of Lo Pan's cities (Ariel's former capital and one of Rjak's former core cities). I was close to losing a city in the northwest, which bordered on one of Lo Pan's roads, so that he could throw lots of chaos ettins in a single turn against it - but despite losing some dwarves, my defenses held. Tlaloc also helps me, his forces in the north bind a portion of Lo Pan's military.

Lo Pan attacks with chaos ettins and an occasional chaos knight and defends with beholders. He also shifts tons of beholders around in a way that I don't understand. About 20 beholders are running circles in my territory near one of my border cities but cant do anything against the city defenses. Lo Pan also has a fleet of 9 galleasses and 3 cogs swimming around in the southern sea (where I don't have any ships, I'd have to get around Raven's peninsula to get there), but merely drags them around, only occasionally unloading two to three units on my territory. I've seen the "dragging-ships-around" before, but I'm a little concerned about Lo Pan's usage of his beholders. It just doesn't make sense to have them run around one of my cities when I attack another city in the vicinity. I don't think I have seen such behaviour in vanilla civ. I don't know what's causing it either. The beholder isn't flagged as offensive-also (I suspected that from its behaviour and checked that).

Okay, back to playing now. Lo Pan emerged as a winner from two wars before, let's see whether he can do it again ... I doubt it. ;) The picture below shows the stuation before the start of war, in the meantime I've taken the two cities in Lo Pan's southeast.
 

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@Psyringe

Thank you for your compliments about the replay value of MoM. :)

I love the game you are playing. Haven't yet checked the savegame, but the report is really cool. Interesting to see how the world war will turn out. It would also be very interesting to see how the death mages beat their neighbours silly. My secret wish is that the terror of the other continents will spread to the one you are on. ;) Knowing AI's ability to do naval attacks it's a slim hope, but I can hope.

My guess for the beholders is that they are on a mission to pillage your lands, but can't do so as they don't have pillage.

- -

I tested with the self-extracting rar and download seems to end up being ~165 MB in size with it. No reason not to use it so it won't be a .zip after all. :)

It's a little shocking to realize that all work I've scheduled to do before I package 1.0 is practically done. For several hours now I've just tried to think of things I may have missed. It's always a little scary thing to wrap up a project. Especially when it's this big.

Edit: I forgot to mention that old versions have been deleted by Thunderfall. It's close now...
 
- watching the death mages: I've got some savegames from in-between ... if you're interested in a specific period, just tell me, I'll see whether I can send you some saves. You'll have to modify the save of course in order to watch fights that I cannot / couldn't see, but I guess this isn't a problem?

Btw, while you checked older saves, could you see how Vlad's culture developed? It look sinteresting that he was culturally backwards (and declining) for the first half of the game, but then suddenly started to gain massively. It may be connected to Death Shrines and WoS doubling their culture after 1000 years, that would lead to +3 culture in any city where it happens ... just a guess. If that's the case, then the situation will be slightly different in 1.0, where WoS and Shrine are combined. Could also be just an effect of having waged a major war and building up culture after winning, of course.

- beholders who want to pillage but can't: This was my second guess ... would be a pity though. If this happens regularly, then the AI will weaken its defenses and practically waste units that go on a non-accomplishable mission. I'll have an eye on it ... there was something similar going on in my last game, although I attributed to fortified dwarves in a bottleneck position then (Tlaloc had some units running around who didn't attack that position, perhaps they also wanted to pillage but couldn't).

- things that you may have missed: In a project of this scope, there will always be things that could be considered missing. I think it's very much like departing on a voyage ... you *will* find something that you forgot at home, but you'll find out that it wasn't anything crucial. The important things are done, and are done well. :) There will be some tweaking to do of course, because of the many changes since beta 10 pre-release 1, but I don't expect really serious issues.
 
@Psyringe

I think I'm going to pass on the savegames after all. I don't know how to modify saves so I can watch other fights and I really don't have much time right now. If it had been readily available, it would've been an another story. Thank you for the offer though. :)

I believe the culture is linked to well of souls and shrines. Hopefully the defensive units running around problem isn't too frequent. I wouldn't want to strip away all features of the mod just because the AI can't handle them. This one isn't that crucial though. AI has shown that it's capable of handling MoM's units reasonably welll so some lone problems can be tolerated.

Nice metaphora with the voyage. :) Funny coincidence that I'm indeed going on an actual voyage in one week's time. Both mentally and physically.

As for the changes after beta 10, I have a feeling they'll be fine. It has been mostly touching up things here and there and responding to weaknesses that have been observed. I refuse to believe that I could have broken the game balance with any of the changes - at least let's hope so. :) Tweaking is probably in order, but hopefully it can wait for August.
 
@Psyringe

I looked at the savegame you sent me and spied on the death mages. Very interesting. Hopefully I'm not spoiling your game telling these figures.

Vlad:
74 Necromancers
30 Raiders
25 Cursed Legionaries
21 Death Knights
12 Nightblades
7 Sword Sauruses
8 fire catapults
and... 32 Dreadships

Mordja:
67 Necromancers
18 Cursed Legionaries
8 Fire Catapults
Some miscellaneous units and... 23 Dreadships

Necromancers seem to be hot right now. Either all Shadowmen have been upgraded or they aren't in fashion anymore. Dreadship enslave seems to be pretttty powerful. Their fleets dwarf all other mages so totally that the enslave is the only possible answer. It's clear that it's very powerful feature, but the crucial question is that is it too powerful? Can the death mages be challenged at seas? Edit: I toned down the death mage ship stats a bit. Dreadship is 4 attack and 3 defense at 50 shields. Ghost Ship is 6 attack 4 defense at 80 shields.

Other interesting thing was that both death mages had highly developed cities. Many of them were maxed at 12 and infrastructure seemed to be strong. Definite change from earlier experiences.
 
Master of Myrror 1.0 (166MB).
  • This is a self-extracting archive. Execute it, browse for Civ3\Conquests\Scenarios\ and hit "install".
  • After you've installed the mod, just choose "civ-content" from Conquest main menu and select Master of Myrror.biq

Ladies and gentlemen, it is done. :) Happy playing!
 
The teaser has been updated with the new V1.0 information

- GIDustin
 
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