Master of Myrror Fantasy Mod 2.0

Oberic report continued:

The war continues againts Tauron. I face a difficult decision in that if I wait for the better transports and ships, Tauron's VP status will weigh too heavily against me. After embarking on a big ship building program, I think I have relatively good control of the seas as far as him trying to get troops ashore and even if he does, I have enough "fire brigades" to deal with what he might come up with. He has primarily launched raids on my original island. (Goodluck as most of the cities on that coast have lots of warrior monks). He has also tried once on my new island as well where reconstruction continues. The newer island is helping economically as far as science goes and income, but little else has been contributed yet. It is a big area to defend, but with my 3 armies there and also a good number of spiders and white riders, I should be ok.

I have my spot picked out to go visit Tauron with and take 36 troops over. I find out the hard way that White Riders are not amphibious. (Rutro). I land them anyway as I know that Tauron has 3 beholders in each city.

Tauron does not react right away to my troop landings and I manage to take both coastal cities. The area is nice and open around them so any foot troops coming in, I am going to get some shots at. The only units he has that can attack first are his 2 movers and the line up for what he has is much stronger on foot. I am fortunate in that one of the cities I capture, I get to keep the barracks and port, so both cities are considered in communication and the barracks will be integral for what I want to do. I keep a fair number of transports in the area, just in case we want to leave in a hurry.

The next turn, Tauron's troops start showing up and I see the following in the area:

7 Giants (8-4-1), 15 Mauler (8-4-1), 16 Beholder (1-4-1), 10 Chaos Etten (7-3-1), 3 Hellspawn (6-2-1) and 1 Wolf Rider (5-2-2).

Tauron is sort of smart in that he has them hang out in the mountains and does not rush the first stack in by itself. This was one thing I had been hoping that he would do. His navy also comes in with a couple of warships and a transport, which my navy (I have around 15 hawk ships there) dispatches.

My forces are primarily White Riders (32) and a few Wizards (4).

I got a bit of a suprise as earlier, I had signed a mutual protection pact with Lo Pan and he entered the war against Tauron. I figured he would not do much and he has not and Tauron has not done anything against him either. It became a liability when Merlin decided to start a war with Lo Pan, so now, I have Merlin against me as well. He is not much more than a pest at the moment, but does distract some troops that I would have sent after Tauron. I am building another fleet to go visit his little island and see if I can put him out of my misery. He has not done anything and won't give me anything either in the way of tech, so time for him to hit the bricks.

Tauron makes his approach and my first counter attacks are reasonably successful and I probably kill 10 or so of his units for the loss of 5 of my own. Considering his cost more and I am getting a better kill ratio, I will take it. My navy is also helping by doing bombards when Tauron's ships are not around. They are not a major factor, but everything I can get helps. The question will become can I hold where I am and kill him fast enough without having all my troops become depleated. I have another follow up wave of 12 white riders and 3 wizards coming, but it will be an interesting fight. I am two techs out from finishing out the middle era and I think I have about caught Tauron in the science department.

Current econ:

1540 incom. 732 sci, 241 corruption, 344 maint, 164 units. I can run 50 percent science and still be positive income. Research is generally taking 6-7 turns.

Current Army: 273 with 109 allowed:

20 Workers, 5 Sword lizards (used to prevent landings in mountains), 1 Glade Rider, 3 army, 12 acolyte, 63 scorcer, 9 champion, 18 wizards, 1 Trebuchet, 16 Cogs, 16 spiders, 76 white riders, 60 warrior monks, 11 cleric, 37 hawk ship.

I am considering dumping the warrior monk producers at some point. Most of my coastal cities facing Tauron have probably 8-10 monks in them and that should be more than enough to stop him. My econ is huge, but 60 is a dent in it considering they are costing me maintence.
 
This screen shot is of the situation around my bridgehead on Tauron's island. Most of the army I mentioned in the previous post is in the area and you can see how a lot of it is in the rougher terrain. Unfortunately for Tauron, he has to come to me in the open and that is really the only place my troops stand a chance against his big attackers.
 

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Racial resources: It's a two-edged sword, but I think I lean more towards Psyringe's opinion myself. I guess the primary function of the race resources is to provide the player with additional units that vary from game to game, not provide trading possibilities. However, it has been nice to read about the way TLC has been trading his race resources. What do others feel about the race resource scarcity? Current setup or the earlier?

Mod texts, civilopedia: I'll do some work for them. More description for units, fix errors, check out what the science advisor and such look like and in general, do as much as seems plausible considering my limited time. I'm afraid diplomacy may remain in its current state, but I can try. It's among the most time-consuming parts of the texts though (and to me at least, somewhat useless as I usually don't read it at all.)
(@Klyden - I would appreciate the write up. Thank you. :) )

Orc Camp and "replaces all...": Don't worry Psyringe, I've been considering something similar to what you suggest and if I get around to it, I'll come up with a new way of dealing with the orc camp. It's for a future version though. :)

Planting trees: This has been a nature mage specialty, but I probably should make it similar to irrigate without fresh water (available to nature magi from the start and to others via a high level tech.)

Sacrificable Zombie Workers: The one city cultural victory is probably the only loophole it has and that probably concerns just the player. AI won't probably take advantage of it. I'm feeling like going through with it.

Game reports/savegames: Thank you once again. :) Great reads and great savegames. Nice feeling of progress in the four savegames by Psyringe. Looking forward to the future of that game. Klyden's lategame war is very interesting as the feedback has been (for quite obvious reasons) focused primarily on early- and midgame so far. I'm still a bit in the dark considering the balance of the late game.
 
@Klyden

Another reason for the amphibious to go - losing a perk when upgrading from champions to white riders. (It was intentional to not make mounted units amphibious, but it's not logical to upgrade units and lose perks.)

Are you sure the warrior monks are costing you maintenance? They are definitely set up as not requiring maintenance. :confused:

Really exciting to see how your overseas expansion goes. Should be a tough fight. :)
 
Re: race resources, I think they're a bit too common, as is.

I'll also mention that the Lizardmen and Goblins seem of quite limited use, at least for a Death mage. There was a brief period in which the Spear Saurus was my best defender (you've seen the results in the savegames), and the Goblins' attack factors aren't above the ones of Death units, who enslave on top. Of course, having Orcs (and now Dark Elves), I didn't really build any Death units for attack pre-Death Knights anyway.
 
Goblins hopefully carve out a niche with their cheap cost, draft and one of the strongest race specific buildings - life tree.

Lizards still need a little something. They do have pretty good race specific building with the 'free granary' spawning pool (BTW I wonder how AI treats it, does it build granary and spawning pool). Their unique ship is also a pretty nifty transport for its age. I'll think about the units themselves though. I don't think I've ever built the lizards in any great number.
 
Weakish, drafted attackers have never made anyone happy. The builds are good, I gotta admit - Fishery+Harbour really gets coastal cities going. (The Life Tree is Elf-specific, however, in the version I'm playing, at least.) I guess cheap, weak attackers just don't square well with my playing style.

The Orcs, Dark Elves and Dwarfs are quite good. I've not got the opportunity to try out the Elves, Men or Trolls yet.
 
The race specific improvements were shuffled a bit. Fishery is now for Men, Life tree for Goblins, Magistrate for Elves (should probably come up with new graphics and name as magistrate is pretty civilized for wood elves).

Hmmm. Maybe the draft should be for defenders as you do have a point about weakish attackers not really benefitting from it. Lizardmen are defensive... gotta think on this. :)
 
I've been writing the mod texts today. Science advisor talks about mod's techs instead of Civ3's techs, some other advisor texts have been fixed, complete entries written for each race resource, terrain types list correct resources, progress isn't listed by st. augustine & co. any more and things like that. I was right about one thing - it is tedious work... I'm still not sure if I'm going to touch the diplomacy. Probably no.

Zombie Worker sacrifice went in. Lizard attacks were boosted a bit but other than that, race resources remained the same. I'm going to reduce the appearance ratio though, but haven't gotten to it yet. Aaglo will probably finish the death mage ships tonight so that leaves just Kinboat's Angel as the remaining addition to the unit graphics and he believed it would be done this week. :)

So far everything is looking good. Work with the mod has been in part reason for me not really reading for exams that could've helped me change my major subject this year, but that happens. :crazyeye: Wouldn't go back and change a thing - this has been really fun, but also, really time-consuming. We'll see how much I'm going to work with the mod in August when I get back. There will definitely be a 1.1 but after that, I have a feeling I need to take a step back and do just maintenance instead of adding new stuff.

Around 4-5 days to release date. Can't really believe it. :)
 
@Phant

Can't remember for sure, but I don't think so. Shouldn't be much different from continents though. Probably nature mages have an upper hand with their irrigation, Death mages benefit from communal corruption and Life mage ship advantage is heightened a bit. Apart from that, should be just about same.
 
Phant said:
Just woundering has anyone tested this mod on an Archipelago map?
My second game my have been on an Archipelago map, I'm not sure (I chose "Random" during setup). There were many islands which were properly colonized by the AIs when they had no room left. There was one main continent, on which all civs were located, but it had many choke points and may have been only a series of connected archipelago islands.

Anyways, from the experience of this game I think that Archipelago games of MoM will play "as usual" - that is, the AI will explore and colonize the islands, but will have difficulties to mount a larger overseas atack. (In the game I mentioned, I had Tlaloc continuously ship two units every couple of turns onto my island, where the were slaughtered by a single paladin. My defenses were weak,and Tlaloc could have easily captured the island if he just took the time to acumulate four or six units before setting across the sea, but the AI just isn't that smart in that aspect. It's a definite improvement over former incarnations of Civ though, and especially over the AI of "Master of Magic", where the game was basically won as soon as you chose to play on a map with more water. ;) )
 
I guess I ought tell you folks that I'm heading off to Munich tomorrow, so don't worry if I cease to spam the thread for a few days ...

I had hoped to play a bit more on my Vlad game the last couple of days, but yesterday's migraine pretty much stopped that.

Anyway, see ya!
 
Have a good trip TLC. :) Drink several pints of Bavarian beer and visit Neuschwanstein. I've never done either one so you can tell whether it's worth it. (Although I have drunk several pints of regular beer and it 'being worth it' depends entirely on the situation.) ;)
 
The Last Conformist said:
I had hoped to play a bit more on my Vlad game the last couple of days, but yesterday's migraine pretty much stopped that.

I feel with you, literally ... seems that the german weather tries desperately to stop the MoM beta test. :( *rubs his aching head* But we can't let it get away with that ... I'll play some more turns right now! :) Just don't be too surprised if my next post contains the description of several fatal errors in my so-called strategy. ;)

@TLC: Have a good trip, and Gute Besserung. :)

@Drift: I've actually been at Neuschwanstein and enjoyed the visit, however I couldn't see what's so special about it that many tourists rate it as a "must-see". Actually what impressed me most was how well organized the castle personnel was and how efficiently they dealt with the hordes of tourists. :)
 
Oberic reports continue:

After about 3 more turns of the slugfest around Groningen and Lorn, I am forced to first leave Groningen and then Lorn. My army is too depleted and Tauron continues to move in a mix of forces against me including units from goblins, men and trolls. I have not seen any orcs yet. Most of it is foot, which gives me an advantage as the only thing I am building and sending that way are 2 movers. I gather up what is left of my army (20 something units, many elites) and leave.

I also finish off Merlin and the old boy shocks me with over 1000 in the treasury. Wow! I immediately put that to work on the other island with improvements and such. I build a few more lizards for garrison duty in the rougher terrain. I also have the workers going nuts on the second island cleaning it up of swamps and also on ancient forests. (By the way, no additional resources from clearing ancient woods and I could have sworn that they were giving 10 shields earlier. They should).

I get my invasion force together and rest it and also gather new production and head back over after about 4 turns. I also take the opportunity upgrade my big producers around my capital with the big market improvement along with 2 other cities that are my regular war producers. I hit the beaches with 51 units and probably have another 12 on the way. This time I get attacked by a couple of giants as soon as I land. Oops. I manage to retake Lorn again and after losing several units trying Groningen, decide to get everything into Lorn and see about holding that. Lorn has the orc barracks, but not a regular barracks. (I forgot to mention this the last time). I need to rebuild the harbor this time and have to decide if I am just going to sit and not improve the city or if I am staying. Tauron starts showing up in force again and there is more navy this time. I manage to sink what shows up, but I take my share of losses as well.

I hit the new era and immediately start researching life XI. With that, I will get a bit better transport and also have the opportunity to build/upgrade to paladins. I have been doing ok with 5 point attackers, but it will get uglier with 6 point attackers. Right after that, I get the top of the line warships and after I get done upgrading my hawkships, that should give me for effective bombardment help and also give me an edge in the naval department (at least until Tauron gets his improved warships).

I am keeping track a bit more careful this time of losses on both sides on the land front. Since the second landing, losses stack up as follows:

Oberic: 1 Glade Rider, 10 White Riders (total shield production 790)
Tauron: 5 Beholder, 2 giants, 11 Maulers (total shield production 1540).

In terms of units, I am not getting 2 to 1 like I thought I was, but am very close to that when it comes to shields. Considering that also includes assaulting a walled city and also Tauron got a few shots in with his giants/maulers before I could get into the confines of the city, I am not displeased.

VP ranking is getting nerve racking as I think Tauron has 68000 now and I have 61000. I am gaining, but can I gain fast enough. I can't afford to go 1 to 1 with him and while I think I have passed him in the science department, I don't think I am doing 2-1 on him. Will have to build all the wonders I can as well.

I have decided to build a few of the glade riders as they have a bigger attack value than my white riders and also have blitz and 3 point movers. They give me the opportunity to either destroy multiple redlined Tauron units and/or also go after a single Tauron unit outside of my border and still make it safely back to the city without being attacked. So far, not working bad, despite missing the extra hp. I still prefer the white riders, despite the lower attack as they have the extra hp and are cheaper to produce. In cities that it takes the same amount of time to produce glade riders as it does white riders, I go with glade riders.

Econ is disgusting at the moment as my improvements on the other island continue to take hold and their support is more scientific/econ than anything for the war effort, although a couple cities are getting close to being able to help soon. Econ stacks up as: 1787 income, 946 science, 245 corruption, 398 maintenence, 167 units. I am running 60 percent towards science and have a slight surplus. This is getting me devs in 7 turns. Running the minimum is simply too expensive at this point (about -170 a turn compared to even/slight surplus).

Army stacks up as 280 units, 113 allowed: 20 workers, 9 sword saurus (cheap 4 point defender I am using to hold hills/mountains around my cities), 7 glade riders, 3 armies, 12 acolytes (using them to garrison inland cities and too expensive to upgrade), 63 scorcerer, 9 champion (need to find those and get them upgraded), 20 wizard, 1 trebuchet (every civ needs one), 30 hawk ships, 19 cogs, 16 spiders, 75 white riders, 75 warrior monks, and 11 clerics (too expensive to upgrade, but work just fine as units in hills/mountains to hinder invasions). I rechecked and it appears if the spiders and warrior monks are free, then the math works out. I have a leader I have been keeping on ice (although I should convert him to an army), waiting on the better transports and also on paladins. I am about to get both.

In regards to the race resources. In my game, there appears to be one of each on the map. Think that is in line with what is desired. Lo Pan has no race resources on his island and also has 3 of the 4 nodes. Sadly for him, the one he is missing happens to be chaos.

The races are going to have different impacts on the different mages. Trolls are going to be brutal for anyone that gets them, but less useful for the chaos mages (who have equivalent units). I do like the way the race improvements have basically been reworked. I am using the dark alter (dark elf) improvement a lot. It is cheap, costs nothing and helps with my population control. Considering I have only 2 lux items, it is big for me. For someone who has a pile, it is not going to be as big. The regular elf magistrate is also getting a lot of construction as well for the corruption reducing benefit, especially on my second island. I did build the lizard pool although that may not be as big for me. I have not built the dwarf fortress as I typically take the attitude that an enemy needs to be attacked before they can attack one of my cities. I also have not built dwarven units yet as I do have wizards which have a higher defense although they have fewer hit points. Neither will stand up to Tauron's giants (8 point attackers vs 6 point defenders with 4 hps or 5 point defenders with 5 hps is a lose, lose). I am just glad I have them instead of Tauron because the best he has are either 4 point defenders (beholders-giants-maulers with extra hps) or 5 point defender (men, but only 4 hps). Makes my attacking easier.. ;)

Drift, I will try to do an example write up and see how you like it. I will probably work on it this week as I get time and things get finalized.
 
Nice to see how the game will turn out. I especially like the feedback about the units, improvements and resources - useful stuff. Gives a welcome different point of view for many things. I'm too tired right now to comment this with any more sense than this - should've been sleeping for some time now. :)

I'm not sure if ancient forests have ever given shields when hacked down - I believe not.

The write up is welcome, but don't feel obliged to do it - if you don't have the time, feel free to let it up. If needed, I can put something together myself. :)

Now off to bed.
 
Should the forests provide resources or not? My thinking is it is a hard effort to clear them in the first place and there should be some bene for that. I also think that at some point, the rest of the mages should be able to plant trees. This still gives Nature an advantage right off the bat, but the others should be able to "catch up".

I think TLC and I have similiar preferences in that we have a tendancy to prefer some quality units over quantities of ok units. I probably feel the most comfortable with the life mages and the least comfortable with the death mages. Both play quite different and there is no "right or wrong" with them, but rather play style fits better with certain mages than with others. I think this is a great indication that the positions have a lot of differences from each other (which is good) and yet still are pretty balanced. Any can be played well and all have advantages/disadvantages.
 
Phant said:
Just woundering has anyone tested this mod on an Archipelago map?

I did. And yes Nature is strong, but because of pterodactyls.
 
@Klyden

Editor is getting in my way. Ancient Forests are in practice Jungles with 2 food and 1 shield. I can't set clearing them to give shields in the editor - as far as I know, the shield bonus is hardcoded for forests only.

Also, I'm having a little hard time figuring how to make planting forests available to nature mages from the start and to others later. I have to tie the worker job to a tech and if I tie it to nature mage specific tech, no one else can plant forests.

What I would have to do is add a new tech - maybe second era and branching off the nature magic branch. All it would do is give the option of planting trees. Then, I'd give this tech to nature mages from the start and others could research it when they get to it. Is this too cumbersome? It would have to be un-tradeable of course.

I'm glad you feel that way about the faction balance. :) I also think that the balance is reasonably good. Even though AI may not fare as well with all factions, human can win with any of them.

@Gladi

Death has similar bird as well so they have at least a little competition. Also, the new reduced capacities of the birds limit their use as relocators and shorter range (4) makes it rare that airdrop alone is enough to reach an another island. But you're definitely right about them being a great asset to nature mages. :)
 
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