Master of Myrror Fantasy Mod 2.0

[Drift]

@rhialto

Double nodes is also a little clumsy setup. Something like it has crossed my mind before, but it's loaded with issues. Will AI understand it? There are already a lot of strategic resources in the game - 11 at the moment and 15 after I've added the new races. AI probably doesn't differ between them so it couldn't grasp the usefulness of the late game node and would treat it just like any other strategic resource.



In other news, I just realized that there's a problem with the new setup of race resources. Units spawned by it don't upgrade. At all. It's because player has to be able to build the unit he is upgrading to and as you can't build the race units normally, it's impossible to fix. Hmm. I'll have to decide how big a problem it is. It does downplay the race units a bit as you need to start over every time you get a new unit. The old ones do stick around, but they will become outdated at some point.

I just got to second era in my game and it has been fun. I'm playing Kharan and am surrounded with mages on three fronts. Lizardmen have been a good asset so far. Haven't really gotten into fights with mages that have race resources. All I've fought so far is hordes of Chaos Warriors Sss'ra keeps sending from the other side of the continent. Mordja and Ariel just signed a pact to erase me from the face of Myrror so they may bring some of their little underlings with them to battle.

I'm a little concerned about the death mages being possibly too strong with the well of souls being the main culprit. I'm not sure though. AI seems to handle them nicely, but it feels a tad overpowered in human hands. Also, it feels like production costs are a touch too low.

 

[clearbeard]

Drift,

In my experimentation with the non-regicide king thing, I've discovered that a unit with the "king" flag set will not appear on the build list, but IS available as an upgrade for all the factions they are available to. You might try giving all the race units that flag, and see if that works out. It will completely kill playing the mod in regicide mode, but I wonder how many people do that anyway?

 

[Drift]

@clearbeard

But will the AI use units with 'king' flag correctly? It would be logical that AI keeps its kings safe and won't use them for combat. If I recall correctly, this is the reason why upgradeable combat kings don't work with AI - it doesn't put them into combat, but places them in a safe city.

 

[Wolfhart]

But will the AI use units with 'king' flag correctly? It would be logical that AI keeps its kings safe and won't use them for combat. If I recall correctly, this is the reason why upgradeable combat kings don't work with AI - it doesn't put them into combat, but places them in a safe city.

You recall correctly I tried it last summer and it worked just like you said AND whenever you stacked the combat king with other weaker units (lower defence or less HP) to protect them, the opponent still attacks them first and the combat king last

 

[Misfit_travel]

<snip>

I'm a little concerned about the death mages being possibly too strong with the well of souls being the main culprit. I'm not sure though. AI seems to handle them nicely, but it feels a tad overpowered in human hands. Also, it feels like production costs are a touch too low.

I agree. I've played Rjak a couple of times and they can build up a ton of offensive units very quickly, particularly if they happen to get orcs. The orc camp is deadly since it quickly lets Death build masses of zombies / orcs to overwhelm any opponent. Consider making the orc camp slightly more expensive.

I'd suggest a slight increase in unit costs for 2nd tier Death units (zombie & above), but the city improvements costs seem to be okay. I'd suggest altering only one variable - unit costs, to see if it has the desired effect.

Misfit

 

[clearbeard]

As long as the AI strategies do not include "king", the AI does use them as combat units, the same as any other. I've even seen them go as escorts for settlers, if they have "defense" as an AI strategy. The thing with them defending last does still apply, sadly. What I meant was the king flag under Unit Abilities (i.e. blitz, etc), which keeps them off the build list. BTW, the AI does in fact upgrade these king units, when it decides it has the free cash, the same way it does with its other upgradable units (that is, in fits and starts, and with little intelligence, but still...). So one problem is solved, but imperfectly.

As for the discussion of Death strengths, I've not found them to be too overpowered. My one game with them (in 1.0, granted) went well, but it didn't seem noticably easier than the other factions. Perhaps a modest cost increase to the units, to offset the obscene numbers one can accumulate, but I wouldn't get too drastic.

 

[bkwrm79]

The race-units from Small Wonders sounds like a very interesting touch... if they don't require maintenance, that would be reminiscent of the original MoM where race units didn't consume Mana (just Gold and Food). I'm following reports of the experiment with great interest.

report from Tauron game

Lo Pan is dead!

I managed recruited a couple people to attack him, and they brought in their friends... it worked quite well. Lo Pan managed to keep all his cities until I arrived; I started by seizing the city with dwarfs, then built a city on the elves (otherwise the square would have fallen under Ariel's control when I captured the closest Lo Pan city), Lo Pan collapsed. I also got a city with four Furs. My navy bombarded his two island cities until I could take them with amphibious assaults. I just like owning islands, they aren't actually much help.

Then Merlin (3rd strongest mage, has trolls) organized a massive coalition against Tlaloc (2nd strongest mage, has goblins). I'm building up my forces in preparation for taking out Tlaloc once he and Merlin have worn each other out a bit. I don't want to fight Merlin because he's between my main empire and the cities I took from Lo Pan. Also, one of Tlalocs's cities flipped over to me, so he's probably mad at me anyway. Can't have him at my back if I ever have to fight Merlin.

Fighting Lo Pan I brought Maulers, Hellspawn, Cannon and Sword Saurons. Cool. But against Tlaloc I want to fight a much more fast-paced campaign. I'm planning on some strike forces of Hell Drakes, Doom Drakes, Wyvern Riders and perhaps some elves, led by Archdemons. My Steamtanks and Flying Fortresses will be my reserve to direct at any point I get stopped, and I'll send in Berserkers and Sword Saurons to hold cities after I capture them.

Besides, the drake units just look so cool flying across the screen... I got a few Hell Drakes into the fight against Lo Pan just to try them out. They provided 'fire' support for the armies of Ariel, Merlin and Vlad who were all besieiging the same Lo Pan city. The defenders must have given up hope when a fourth enemy army started attacking!

 

[Misfit_travel]

Minor bug playing V2 beta 2 patch 3.

In the Diplomacy screen the UNGOR faction appears with a square black box surrounding the picture of the ruler.

Regards
Misfit

 

[bkwrm79]

I changed the effects of Harmony in the editor. (I hope that affects my current game!)

Then I got to thinking... I'm Chaos... maybe my people just don't LIKE Harmony. Maybe I should have left it alone!

 

[Drift]

King units

Thanks guys for the information. Good stuff. However, the part about them defending last is a dealbreaker for me regarding the race units. After all, some of them are defenders by definition.

However, they should work fine with the way clearbeard is going to use them. I don't see a problem in the king defending last.

Death mage strength

I'm a little undecided on what the problem is. I feel it might be the +25% shield production increase from Well of Souls. I've removed it for now and as a compensation, lowered some death mage unit costs (so I'm going against your advice, sorry about that.) One of the main strengths of the death mages is that they can raise armies faster and have more units than the other mages. I'd like to keep that, but make them spend more time building their infrastructure than they currently do.

@bkwrm79

The difference between race units and mage units resembling the original MoM was one of the reasons I liked the idea so much. It feels somehow right to have the main units of the mage and then the supplemental race units.

Sounds like a very cool game, good to hear you are having fun with the mod. It would be nice to hear how the Archdemon teleportation ability works in practice. I've never got that far as a chaos mage so can't really comment on it. When I added the ability, I was a little afraid it might be bad for the game balance, but so far no one has complained about it ruining their games.

Unfortunately, the effects of Harmony won't be changed for your current game. It's an annoying bug and one I should've fixed with a 1.02 or something. Well, at least it'll work right in the next game.

@Misfit Travel

Yeah, I've noticed it as well. I've already fixed it for the next patch, but thanks for letting me know.

 

[Drift]

I made some changes to the mod and started a new test game with the new race resource system. I'm playing again a death mage, Mordja this time. Again, I'm surrounded by AI civs on multiple fronts. I started off next to Trolls so they've beefed my military nicely. The spawning rates haven't been too fast so far. I've just reached the second era and I'm researching level III trolls that gives me access to Ettins. They should come handy as Ariel just sneak attacked me.

I've really liked the simplified way of handling the race resources. I like to keep things streamlined. When I've been in control of couple of old style race resources, I've always ended up neglecting many of the units. I may have built some of them, but especially when there have been more than 3 race resources, I've given up on trying to decide which ones I should build and where and sticked to the basics. I hate micromanagement you know. With the new system, all I need to do is rebuild the rally point each time I get a new one and the game does all the work for me. It also diversifies the AI armies as they wouldn't use all of their race resources anyway, but they do build the rally points.

There are some downsides to this. The race resurce number will stay at the current eight. I'll have to withdraw my promise of four additional races. Reasons for this are:
- Incompatibility with the new race resource system. I'm running out of room in tech tree. Each race resource eats two slots from one tech box.
- Lack of good enough units. Despite there being some very good units around there, large number of them would feel a bit forced.
- The mod doesn't absolutely need the new race resources and I've reached a point where I'm trying to wrap up things. This has started to take too much of my time again and my studies begin again in the near future.
- 8 resources against 12 resources creates more conflicts over them.

So, the final beta is taking shape. At the moment I like the new race system enough to include it in the final beta. There's still a lot of polishing to do however + lots of little things people have mentioned. I'll try to majority of them and then post the next beta. I'm really curious on how people will receive the new race resources.

 

[Klyden]

Sounds interesting on the new race system and I think this will help with long term game balance. In the past, the tendancy has been to either build a lot of the particular race resource you had or to pretty much ignore them, depending on how they fit in with the position you were playing. This way, you will get a bit of a taste of them and they can help out in key spots, but won't be so overwhelming as to ruin the theme for the parent position you are playing.

I also agree that you want to keep it at 8. Another reason for this is because if you tried to make it 12 and then played on a smaller map, it could be a lot more unbalanced.

Something to perhaps consider is to make this a varient of the final product. Much like many of the scenarios have 2 different versions, this could also be incorporated that way as well. Have one version as normal in that you can build them like currently and then the other version with the new way of doing it.

Looking forward to this new version to give it a whirl.

One of the things as far as "strength" of a position is that it appears that having a node early does help a lot. This is not from the standpoint of what units you can build, but some of the improvements. Not sure of a fix for this and there may not be. They do have to play some role in the game and sometimes you just have to realize you got unlucky with the starting position and try to start over. Something else to consider long term is a fixed map with starting positions. This would be a longer term project and would have its own play balance issues, but at least you would be assured of something like having some nodes around you and not getting shut out on luxuary items either.

 

[The Last Conformist]

For various reasons, incl the death of my HD earlier this week, I've not really got around to playing the new version yet.

I thought I'd mention something wrt race resources, tho; as a Death Mage in the later part of the game with access to all race resources bar Men, I found myself builing hordes of Dark Elves and a few Dwarfs, but no other race units. The new system would solve that sort of issues.

 

[syndicatedragon]

Currently playing a game as Ariel on Warlord. Because I'm a wimp, I'm only playing with 5 opponents as opposed to the standard 11 on a normal map. The AIs expand so fast with this mod! I like it - normally early game AIs are somewhat stunted on low skill levels. I assume this has to do with having no tile food penalty. I am doing okay - I've only met Rjak and Raven so far, had a few minor skirmishes over city sites, and I am fairly in the middle point/power-wise. Anyway just a few questions:

1) is there a technology that allows clearing of swamps? am I just stuck with them? what's the best way to utilize them?

2) what are considered some of the more important early techs? I'm having a hard time deciding what technology lines to research.

3) I noticed that I have access to all of the citizen specialist types from the beginning. The engineer really helps starting up new cities. Does anyone know if the AI uses these?

 

[Klyden]

For early techs, the pattern I usually follow is get the second tier of whatever race I am playing. This generally gets you an upgrade in units and provides you with a race only improvement that helps with production and culture, provided you have the correct node. Part of the reason you want to go second tier is that often you can trade with other race for their first tier or get lucky on a goody hut to get a first tier tech.

After this, I usually have a high probability of working on chaos to get the barracks.

If sea is going to play a major part in things, then typically I look at life advances as that is where most of the ships are at. I usually do death stuff last if not playing that group as the advances there are for corruption for the most part and then production much later. Chaos has your barracks and also the market. Nature has growth improvements, but I try to build along rivers and such as much as possible so as to minimize the need for aqueducts. I don't usually do graineries in most cases, but can if the need is there.

Hope this helps.

 

[Drift]

Good feedback everyone, thank you. I'm sorry but I'm too busy / tired of modding at the moment to reply in depth.

I need a little break from this. My studies are kicking in and I can't let them get a bad start. I'll probably try to finish the beta 3 in next few days, but after that I'll take it easy for a while. This is taking too much of my time right now - I may have put more on my plate than I can currently swallow. Hopefully I can bring this to a good conclusion though and 2.0 will be a significant improvement over 1.0.

Again, thank you all for your testing efforts and feedback. It's much appreciated and even though I don't reply, it doesn't meant that I don't read and follow your advice.

 

[clearbeard]

@Drift

Would you mind horribly if, as your work load picks up, and after you've put out what looks to be the "final" beta for MoM2, I carry on and post an expanded version of MoM that I've been working on for my own pleasure? I've more or less successfully added in Sorcery while keeping what I feel is the overall idea of the tech tree. I'm still fiddling with how to integrate the (now 10) races, but it's more or less done. I'm eager to see how your rally point idea plays out, a lesser version of which I'd come up with independantly for the Klackons (no graphics sadly, but the feel is still there, IMO). Anyway, I ask just so I'm not stepping on any toes or anything.

I've also finished the upgradable king thing, though I'm still fiddling with getting it incorporated into a fully random game (currently it's either regicide mode, or a set scenario with a fixed number of players and factions). It works as is for the human player, but the AI doesn't seem to want to upgrade the starter vanilla king. The idea is that all players start with a generic wizard king who can upgrade to a unique wizard at any barracks, but the computer doesn't seem to want to make that first step. I'll be adding those into the last beta regardless of the full expansion idea, for those who are interested.

To avoid confusion, I'd prefer to incorporate what you see as your final product before letting this beastie loose. I'd be happy to keep up with minor bug fixes during your working time too, if it would help. Enjoy your studies, and thanks for the nice revival of one of my favorite games of all time!

 

[Drift]

@clearbeard

The changes sound interesting, I'll be sure to check it out with great interest.

Of course you can post it. You may want to start your own thread for it so you can update downloads indpendently and the discussion about the two versions will have their own threads. I'll be sure to link to it on the first page.

I think it's a good idea to get the MoM 2.0 into at least nearly final shape before releasing your version. Although, as the versions are already different from each other, it's not really that big a deal. It's your view of the mod after all, MoM 2.0 is me taking 1.0 further - you obviously don't have to incorporate everything I'm adding.


I'm still a little out of touch with my modding spirit. I've got a lot going on in my real life and I'm pretty tired, but I'll try to put that Beta 3 together soon. Just need to make sure stuff works right.

 

[Misfit_travel]

Drift:

Do what you can, whenever you can. As I mentioned to aaglo in another thread, this is a hobby for us, what you do outside here is real life. Your education is what will give you the opportunity to live the life you want, rather than the life someone would impose upon you. (It was in my case at least).

I know exactly what you mean about working up the motivation to keep a scenario / mod going. Sometimes, you just want to kick back and play......

Whenever you get to it, we'll all be happy to play with it.

Regards
Misfit

 

[Colonel Kraken]

Hello Drift,

I decided to give your mod a try, since you had an all new beta and all (never played the "old" one). I think it's really cool. I was puzzled at first why each faction would be able to research all magic paths and not just their own. It still does seem a bit odd to me, but perhaps this is part of the Myrror story.

I still don't know a lot about the mod, but I have been playing as Oberic and it's been a lot of fun. I do have a question. If all factions can research all techs, what makes the factions unique? Now, I do understand that their are certain units that only certain factions can build. Are there also certain buildings and wonders only certain factions can build? Are there certain things about each faction that makes them have a different playing style?

I guess it doesn't quite make sense to me that Life mages would be able to generate Dark Elf units or Trolls, for instance. But, I'm not way into fantasy, so maybe this is a common thing. I'm just trying to think what makes sense to me as a joe shmoe player off the street who doesn't know a bunch about MoM and other such fantasy titles.

I'm not knocking your mod in any way. I'm just trying to see if it can be made better or not or if I'm just some silly nit wit.

Thanks a bunch,

CK