Master of Myrror Fantasy Mod 2.0

@TLC

Doesn't it? I can't remember seeing a swanship of anykind made (I did wonder whether I had guessed right with the Numenor as it doesn't look at all like a swan :lol: )

I think it's ok for the elves as it's all sleek and pretty. However, high elves would be more fitting and the elves of MoM are more like wood elves... I'm interested in seeing that swanship (if it exists that is).

Edit:

@Klyden

Alarming with the research speeds of the other mages. Hopefully that won't become a trend.
 
Third try starting as Oberic

Good starting position with a life node close by. I expand on my portion of the island and find a choke point that should be easily defendable from my neighbor so I rush a settler up with some troops and set up Ailearth. I get 1 set of luxaries and no racial stuff, so not in the best of positions but at least I have water and a fair area to set up in.

SSs'ra is not in a good spot, but does have dwarfs and no Luxaries. He tries an early war with me that I basically hold off because of my better position. I finally get a barracks to heal units in Ailearth and a cleric or two and he gives it up.

I manage to send a ship exploring a bit before it gets eaten by sea monsters. I have a good advantage on SSs'ra and seem to be ahead a bit on the science race (which I expect). I get my 3-2-2's and get a couple built just in time to have him try to land a settler and beast on my side of the island. I send a couple 3-2-2's to get rid of the unwanted guest and a second war starts. I take out the rogue city and basically stand on the defensive in the north. The screen shot shows the current situation. (We are still at war). He has taken heavy losses as he tries to slip around my defenses. My 3-2-2's have been cleaning him up in the open for the most part. No sign of dwarven units or of chaos warriors yet. So far, I am able to prosecute the war and expand my economy position at the same time. I am up to 9 cities while SSs'ra has 6. Be nice to get the spell of knowledge to keep me in the tech race, but I doubt I get it. I have an important decision to make and that is should I try to continue to develope and deal with SSRa later or try to take him out early before he can get his chaos warriors combined with the nasty dwarves on defense. He has some pretty rugged terrian on his own and my best attacker (for a long time) will be a 3 pointer.
 

Attachments

  • Oberic.JPG
    Oberic.JPG
    174.6 KB · Views: 278
@Klyden

Nasty terrain and dwarves. And Champions come at next era while Chaos Knights come at Chaos V... Well, at least this should be interesting stuff regarding game balance. Good luck - I have a feeling you may need it. ;)
 
The game just took an interesting turn. I had declared war on Lo Pan, and taken one of his cities when Tauron turned up with some outrageous demands. I told him to sod off, and he promptly declared war. Lo Pan wouldn't talk with me, so I bribed Oberic and Rjak to declare war on him, and Rjak also on Lo Pan. Now we'll see how the two-front war goes ...

Edit: As benefits an evil Necromancer, I abandoned Rjak to fight Lo Pan alone as soon as the later came to his senses and wanted to talk peace. OTOH, Rjak paid Oberic to declare on Lo Pan. This can become a real mess ...

Edit2Things aren't going to well; Rjak is getting ripped apart by the Chaos Mages, and Tauron has the Great Wall-style wonder, which, thanks to a bug, renders his cities close to immune to bombardment.
 
Nice to see the race resources being traded. That was one of the things I wanted to achieve with the higher appearance ratio for them. :) Hopefully the AI understands their worth though and won't buy them at any price.

Nice looking game you've got going there. Tell me if any balance problems are raised by the war. :)
 
After beating myself bloody against the same Tauron city for ages, I finally accepted peace with the bastard. Let's hope he won't conquer Oberic ...

There's one big balance issue - the Firewall. The bug means I effectively cannot touch his defenders with artillery, and when his best defenders - Clansmen - have a defense value equal to the attack value of my best attackers - Black Orcs and Death Knights - taking his cities is impossibly expensive. It's rather worse than in the Epic game, because A/D ratios are on the whole lower, and, even worse, the damn thing won't ever get obsolete. Oh, and the bug allowed me to destroy his Dark Tower with bombardment, too ...

I guess my plan now is to build up my army and try and crush Lo Pan before he to grows too powerful. That, and staying away from renewed war with Tauron.

Balance-wise, Chaos Mages seem to do very well in my games. Those Chaos Knights are very good value.
 
@TLC

What's the bug you are talking about? Is it just about 'walls in all cities' wonders or walls in general? Firewall is good value, but I've never heard of this bug associated with it. Dwarves can be annoying. I was considering removing their +1 hp at one point. I may go through with it in the end.

Let's watch those chaos mages. They may well have gotten too powerful in the last patch, but let's not get the verdict in yet.

@Klyden

I did some espionage and got the army numbers from the Freya game you sent me (I didn't list minor numbers):

Lo Pan
126 Maulers
24 Chaos Ettins
18 Beholders
11 Toad Mages
11 Dark Horsemen
10 Chaos Knights
48 Cannons
43 Galleasses
12 Fire Ships
5 Cogs
6 Caravels
22 Inferno spells

Rjak
71 Necromancers
59 Cursed Legionaries
41 Death Knights
16 Skeleton Guards
4 Fire Catapults
6 Cogs

Ariel
69 Sorcerers
55 Warrior Monks
12 Clerics
6 White Riders
13 Fire Catapults
16 Hawk Ships
4 Cogs
20 Fireblast Spells

Oberic
92 Wizards
7 White Riders
6 Fire Catapults
2 Hawk Ships
1 Cog

Tlaloc
21 Gnoll Rangers
17 Ents
4 Centaurs

- Lo Pan really likes his navy and artillery.
- Vlad doesn't have any spells. Has he fired them away or hasn't he built his own spellforge? Or doesn't he have a death node (forgot to check but sounds probable)?
- Ariel has 55 Warrior Monks while Oberic has none. Oberic has nothing but Wizards while Ariel doesn't have a single wizard. Oberic has also probably fired away his arsenal of spells.

Strange, but interesting stuff. Thank you. :)
 
I never did see Oberic fire off any spells. Which game turn was this? I had Ariel blast me with like 19 spells in a row at one point.

At one point, Oberic had a very strong navy. I am guessing Lo Pan put an end to that. Also note the very few offensive units of Ariel and Oberic. This because basically new production heads for the front and dies either trying to kill something or in counter attacks.

I don't know on Vlad except he is all over the map. My guess is that he has been at war in one form or another for a long time and does not have it. I am guessing that Oberic, who also has been at war almost continuously, does not have one either. Only when a nation is at peace will they consider building it apparently.

Tlaloc was also behind on the technical curve (I had sold him tech from time to time) and took another pounding from Lo Pan.
 
Drift said:
@TLC

What's the bug you are talking about? Is it just about 'walls in all cities' wonders or walls in general? Firewall is good value, but I've never heard of this bug associated with it. Dwarves can be annoying. I was considering removing their +1 hp at one point. I may go through with it in the end.
It's a bug with wonders that put walls in all cities. I forget the details, but here's chief issues:

i) The free walls are indestructible. This may or may not be intended.

ii) Instead of targeting first the walls and then the garrison, and only then improvements and population, bombardment against cities with a such wall in them takes out all non-wall improvements first.

iii) For these purposes, wonders (and palaces) count as improvements. That's why I could bombard Tauron's Dark Tower away.

iv) Once the improvements are gone, most shots against the cities simply have no effect - you don't even get a "bombardment failed" notification.

The result is that, except for ruining improvments, bombarding cities with wonder-granted walls is pretty pointless. The bug is in the epic game, but doesn't cause much trouble, since attackers tend not to rely on artillery during the era in which the Great Wall is effective, and since A/D ratios genereally are higher than in MoM.
 
@Klyden

It was the earlier of the saves (1650 AD if I remember correctly) so the 19 spells Ariel launched at you were from those 20. I guess it could be that they don't build spellforges during wartime. Maybe the same thing explains the lack of monasteries on Oberic's part.

@TLC

Thank you for this information. Maybe I should take Firewall out for now and add it back in if that promised patch ever comes and fixes this.
 
I went up against a Firewall-equipped Tauron in my beta 9 game and only in the capital did I encounter any problems at all. In the capital I destroyed a couple random improvements (but NOT all of their improvements, and no citizens) before my catapults started hitting troops. In the other half dozen cities I besieged, the catapults all struck units immediately. I don't really see a problem with it, personally - it's still better than artillery was pre-Conquests.
 
@Drift, Dwarves are fine as they are. In a previous game, i had Dwarves fortifyed in citys with the Dwarven fortress and protected by the Firewall, and they kept on dying!

If i can find it i'll post the save file of that game.

I'm currently in a game where i'm about to be destroyed by Tlaloc who have all but destroyed one of the choas mages already before making peace with them (Left them with 1 city, Tauron i think it was), and with the exception of Rjak who must be on really good terms with the other mages, the Death mages are again the most backwards (including me, and i'm playing as Vlad again, i thnik i'll go back to playing as Rjak)
 
Heres the save game from that earlier game of mine. Unfortunatly i had deleted saves from eariler in that game, so i've currently got no enemy units on my island, and i'm only at war with Merlin & Tauron, with spys in everyone but Tauron.

I've also uploaded that latest save from my current game where i'm about to be destroyed by Tlaloc
 
Got a few turns in more in my Vlad game. Declared war on Lo Pan, and swept his part of former Rjakistan with surprising little resistance. He sent a continuous trickle of Chaos Knights against my southern border, but now having Death Knights and Necromancers, I've been able to kill them off with only light losses. Still, I'm having more non-arty units on defense duties than in my assault stack ...

Next goal, of course, is ravaging Lo Pan's homelands.

Oh, and soon as the culture border expands on one of the former Rjak cities, I'll have a second sources of Goblins, too.

What's not gone so well is that Oberic was badly mauled by Tauron, and subsequently lost a couple of cities to a resurgent Sss'ra. He's the only excuse for an ally I have .... Oh well, Sss'ra has earned the next place on the kill list. Hopefully I can let him be till I'm finished with Lo Pan, tho. I'm giving Oberic a bunch of Nodes to keep him in a bit better shape. Should have given him race resources too, but sold them to Tauron for luxuries.

And sometime I'll have to attack Tauron again. Hate that Firewall.
 
Whoa! Lots of activity here. :)

Seems I'm the last one to finish his beta 9 (update 2) game. Here's the rest of the story:

10. Flexing the muscles

After the world was fully colonized, all mages continued their peaceful buildup for a while. Then Tlaloc declared war on me for the fourth time. Again he didn't have many units in strike range, so there was not much fighting going on. We never reached each other's mainland, but instead fought over two larger islands. With my champions upgraded to White Riders, I managed to take three cities from him; the "promised land" was mine now. (Tlaloc had resettled the city there that I destroyed in an earlier war, however I blocked this hills when I saw his settler arrive, so that he had to settle on the grassland. The city was much easier to take that way. With the stronger defense in MoM, enemy border cities on hills are to be avoided.)

Showering his last city on another larger island with Fireblasts (which would have put his mainland in range of my Fireblasts), I was one step away from taking it, when Tlaloc signed a mutual protection pact with Ariel. That was a smart move, because I didn't want to lose my trade with Ariel. I still sent her three or even four luxuries for 30+ gold per turn.

I built up my military a little, until I had some Thunderers defending my cities and a handful of Paladins near the city I wanted to take from Tlaloc. I waited for his next declaration of war, but my small but high-tech strike force seemed to frighten him. Instead he decided to bugger Vlad. I don't know whether they actually engaged in combat (no cities were conquered), but soon after Tlaloc declared waron him, Vlad did what I considered before: He signed an MPP with Freya. Freya had two borders with Tlaloc and was the only one who could attack his mainland directly. Tlaloc responded by capturing the two Freya cities north of him, then made peace to rebuild. Vlad had effectively turned Tlaloc's attention away by dragging Freya into the war.

A period of peace followed, but as turned out, it was just the silence before the storm ...


11. The World at War

To my total surprise, it was Vlad who started the ball rolling by attacking my northeastmost city (the one which I crammed into the empty space when Freya took a city from Ariel). I had neglected my defenses there, and the road to that city lead across Freya's territory. So I made a RoP with Freya and managed to get a Thunderer into the city. This seemed to impress Vlad, as he never actually attacked the city again. However it didn't stop him from flooding the city perimeter with his cursed legionaries and necromancers. But one or two Angels and Paladins were enough to deal with those, one by one.

In the meantime, Tlaloc had started a major offense against Freya's mainland. He left the two cities in the south alone, but rolled westward with Earth Elementals. Within ten turns, he captured two of her cities and destroyed another, which left her shattered - Freya was reduced to the two cities in the south of her mainland and the one that she took from Ariel before, which was behind one of my cities and therefore out of reach for Tlaloc.

Since Tlaloc was still at war with Vlad, an interesting situation emerged. We met at a mountainous spot where three bottlenecks met - I came from southwest, Tlaloc from southeast, and Vlad's mainland was north. Coincidentally, Tlaloc (who declared war on me four times before) and me were fighting side by side against the forces that Vlad sent to both of us.

After some time, Vlad seemed to run out of units, and I managed to position some units in a good position in his mainland. (This wasn't as easy as I expected as Vlad made use of his Death spells against my Thunderers; it's nice to see that the AI actually uses them. I've never seen the AI using cruise missiles in my unmodded games.)

As I was ready to stike, I noticed two Earth Elementals of Freya nearing my city. I wondered whether she used our RoP to send them across to her cities to attack Tlaloc, but she had other plans - the nature of which I found out when she attacked me. (I'm still not sure whether she RoP-raped me or whether I somehow triggered the MPP that Vlad and she still had, but I didn't attack Vlad on his own Turf yet and she declared war in her turn, not mine, so it really looks like a RoP rape.)

Freyas two Earth Elementals died by attacking the thunderer I fortified in the city. By then i had a handful of Angels in Vlad's territory, I sent them back and took Freya's city (the Ex-Ariel city) with little resistance, Freya still defended with Rangers.

In the meantime Tlaloc had managed to bring a small strike force into Vlad's territory and attack two of his cities. Vlad's defenses (necromancers) held, but I knew that Tlaloc had lots of Earth Elemental running around to the southwest, and I feared that he might get to strong when he managed to overrun Vlad. So I sealed the access to Vlad's territory by fortifying two units on the choke point that lead to his lands. Seeing this, Tlaloc's army of Earth Elementals immediately turned back. The small strike force that he already had inside Vlad's territory died while trying to attack a city.

I then had some time to rebuild units and overran Vlad's mainland. He still defended with necromancers, whereas I attacked with Angels, and most of his army had died before anyways. I made peace and started to build up my economy again.

The World War left Tlaloc and me as the only two significant powers. Freya was shattered (reduced to two cities), and Vlad only had the four cities on an island he colonized before. Ariel stayed neutral and remained at 8 cities (still getting four luxuries from me for now 40-50 gpt), Tlaloc now had 16 cities and I had 31.

During the war and shortly after it, I had two rebellions of cities who flipped back to Vlad. This was somewhat unexpected, as both cities were far away from his capital (okay, even farer from mine), and he had only half the culture that I had. I tend to favour culture buildings and only very rarely experience rebellions in unmodded Civ3. I'm not sure whether this change is a bad thing though.


12. The Runes of Mastery

While I was building up, Tlaloc remained aggressive. Together with Ariel(!) he vanquished Vlad's remaining cities. Tlaloc then declared war on me for the fifth time.

By now he defended with Gnoll champions, and my handful of Angels was enough to win one or two battles in the field, but I could not effectively theaten his cities. I had to decide whether to build up a large army and destroy him, or to just defend and win by space race. I opted for the space race, partly because I could achieve it quicker than mounting a large military offensive, partly because I wanted to see what Drit had done with it. ;)

Tlaloc continuously tried to attack me, but wasn't very smart. An army of some gnollish units and a few earth elementals ran circles near our border. The army was large enough to take a city or two - I abandoned a newly founded city there because the sheer mass of the attackers would have killed my defenders. But the passage to the rest of my territory was blocked by a single Thunderer (later four of them) in a fort on mountains. Tlaloc didn't even try to attack me there - which actually was the wiser decision. What wasn't so wise was that his whole army ran circles in front of my Thunderers, while my barely defended heartlands lay just two sea tiles across; Tlaloc just needed to build a some ships, but never did (at least not there).

On the two islands we fought on before, Tlaloc continuously sent a sea serpent, escortet by two sea drakes, and landed two units near one my cities. Sometimes he tried Earth Elementals, sometimes Gnolls, in the end he even had Elven Lords. However a single Paladin and an Angel were enough to thwart all these attacks. Despite having a larger army, Tlaloc just didn't manage to mount a significant offense against me. Bad AI. :(

So I kept defending my cities, until I researched everything and built the ten runes (nice idea Drift :) ).


All in all, it was a very interesting game. I'm looking forward to my next one. :) Unfortunately I won't have much time during the next two weeks, so I probably won't be able to post here very often. But I'll still be around and start my beta 10 game soon. :)

Thanks for reading. :)
 
I actually like the Firewall and the dwarves as strong defensive elements. In my first game, I attacked Sssra (who had the Firewall) and Tauron (who had dwarves). I lost many units. But it still was fun for me. I like the possibility that one or two of the other mages are so strong in their defensive that you really have to think twice whether you attack them. In my C3C games, once I'm in the tech lead I can build good offensive units (cavalry, tanks) and just know that I can overun one or two neighbours with them. In MoM, it isn't that easy. There may be a situation where brute force may not work, where you have to think of something else. And I like that.
 
Firewall: Let's keep it as it is for now. If it starts to give more trouble, I can remove it then.

Dwarves: I'm still a little tempted by taking away their extra hitpoint, but I'll restrain myself for now :) It is true that they bring a great twist to the game, but I was a little worried about the way Thunderers acted as a deterrent in Psyringe's game. 8 defense is so much that only Chaos, Trolls and Dark Elves can field a stronger attacker...

Defense in general: Next patch will have all defense bonuses cut by 20%. That includes several terrain types (none of the 10% ones), all city sizes, citizens. Even walls. River bonus remains same though. If someone sees something I'm missing with this plan, please speak up. It could well be that I'm ruining the combat system if I fail to see something crucial about this.

Savegames and game reports: Thank you everyone. :) I've been reading the reports and checking out the savegames - retiring and watching the events and spying other mage military forces. Good stuff.

--

As death mages have been suffering on the science front, I'm tempted to add a +50% research improvement for them. I don't think it would be such a problem as death mages are poorer and can't invest as much in the science and also, their cities seem to remain small as they seem to whip their citizens quite a bit. I noticed that chaos mage city sizes have also come down after they got forced labour, but at least they have the trade bonus.

Death mages also seem to be very slow in expansion. I'll try some little tricks first, like adding settlers to their "build often" list. Also, what mrtn said earlier about death mage cities rarely reaching 12 (under AI that is) seems to be true. This is a problem as they can't utilize their maximum support. I may have to raise the support of towns and cities. Maybe even make equal support for all city sizes.

Also, I'm curious of how much the halved mood penalties for forced labour and draft affect things. Maybe the 10 turn mood penalty doesn't restrain the death mages and chaos mages enough and they end up whipping their citizens so much that it cripples their pop growth.
 
Back
Top Bottom