Master of Myrror Fantasy Mod 2.0

[Drift]

@Klyden

Yes, I'd like a savegame. Doesn't take that long to check them out. My e-mail address is probably shutting down so any savegames should be sent to drift1981@hotmail.com from now on.

I wonder if the lack of barracks has something to do with orc camps...

 

[ChaosLord]

I just checked on that in my current game, i'm experiencing it too. Right now the only civs with barracks are mine and the Freya, who built the Enchanted Battlecraft or whatever its called. Since I had time to waste I decided to test if it was the Orc Camps thing. It was. I tested by removing the "Replaces all improvements with this flag" and that fixed it. Ran a game and barracks were being built normally again.

So I guess this means the flag can't be used for Orc Camps and something else will have to be done for them. I have a suggestion for that, what about making the Orc Camp produce a 3/1/2 unit every 10 turns. Call it an Orcish Raider and say its young Orcs who fight just to prove themselves in battle, so no maintence required. The cost of the improvement might need to be raised though, but I think it would have its uses.

 

[Drift]

@ChaosLord

Thank you for testing it. Don't know what I'm going to do for it (apart from removing "replaces all improvements..." flag), but I'm a little hesitant to do anything drastic. Your suggestion is good, but I'll probably reconsider it for 1.1. I wish I had more time at the moment, but as time is the very thing I lack, I'll try to come up with simple and foolproof solutions to everything and revisit them at a later date.

 

[vsaiyan]

Looks amazing, and downloads amazingly quick!

 

[Vanadorn]

I have been following the beta of this mod since its inception. Unfortunately, I was unable to play test it due to time constraints in my life. Since the Warhammer mod came out, I have been watching for another take on the fantasy idea to emerge as well.

Tjedge's D&D mod and Gidustin's Magic mod are not going to be out for some time, so I was hanging alot of hope on yours while waiting for Whammer 2 to emerge. I hoped that yours would be as fun, enjoyable, and unique as EDead's mod was. Most mods are rather shakey at best, with only a few coming out as polished and complete.

Thank you immensely for your highly enjoyable, original, finished and professional looking mod. I was one of the 1st to download your finished product and I can say that it is just as much fun to play as Edead's Whammer mod.

Please keep up the fantastic work and be assured from those who have taken the time out to download and play it, that your effort has not gone to waste. Enjoy your marriage, honeymoon and break from modding. We look forward to seeing and hearing from you when you are ready to come back.

Until then, we'll just have to console ourselves in your absence with the gift you've elft for us to play with. (sarcasm).

Seriously, a 1st class job.

My 2 cents

 

[Lusikka755]

I just d/led the mod and realized that I would maybe have some better graphics for some improvements and wonders. I will PM you about them if you are interested

 

[Drift]

@Vanadorn & vsaiyan

Thank you for your kind words.

@Lusikka755

I'll have to get back to you with that one later this summer. I hope the current ones will do for now as I'm really too busy to do anything extra for the mod.

- -

I've just corrected all the bugs mentioned so far for 1.01. I'll probably release it Thursday so all suggestions and bugfixes are still welcome. However, new concepts and such are not going in at this point, but I can do balancing if something is ridiculously strong/weak and there's an easy way of fixing it.

In addition to fixed bugs, pediaentries and such, I've
- changed crypts to spawn skeletons every 10 turns (was 8)
- removed +25% production boost from well of souls
- reduced the costs of higher dark elves a bit (60->50, 100->80, 140->120).
- Orc Camps are as they used to be meaning that only player understands them. I don't want to risk it at this point with something that requires testing and the next best choice would be to remove the whole improvement temporarily and add it back in 1.1. Would this be preferred over the player-favoring option?
- Acolytes upgrade to Sorcerers, Clerics upgrade to Sorcerers, Sorcerers upgrade to Wizards.

 

[Lusikka755]

@Lusikka755

I'll have to get back to you with that one later this summer. I hope the current ones will do for now as I'm really too busy to do anything extra for the mod.

Ok, just PM me when you need them

 

[aaglo]

A few comments
- I think you shouldn't reduce the high-end high-elves that much - they were very strong&good as they were with the previous costs (I'd suggest you should half the cost-drop - 55, 90 and 130 - if you wish to drop their cost).
- The sword saurus has a ranged attack animation (perhaps due to it replacing the mage-priest, which had ranged attack). It shouldn't.
- the orc camp / barrack issue is quite strange. If you had barracks, and you build the orc camp, you lose the barracks.
- the spawning pool / granary issue is even stranger. If you had granary, and you build the pool, you don't lose the granary.
- I think that the troll arena is too expensive (or is it just me) to be a rare resource-specific middle-age building. It should be either made a bit better (3 unhappy -> content, or cheapen it a bit).

 

[Drift]

Thanks aaglo. It could actually be that the top dark elves aren't expensive but low level dark elves are too cheap. I reduced the cost of troll arena slightly and removed the ranged attack anims from sword saurus.

Breeding pool / granary issue is as it should be, two identical improvements just co-exist. AI isn't probably clever enough to get rid of the other, but at least granary is something AI doesn't build everywhere.

Orc camps replacing barracks and vice versa caused the problem with no barracks for any AI mages. From now on they'll co-exist.

 

[Psyringe]

Just two comments from someone who wishes he had more time to play ...

- orc barracks: I'm undecided whether it's better to just delete the "replaces buildings of that type" flag or to remove the orc camps altogether. I think both alternatives are okay. Orcs have good offensive units at a very reasonable price, that is their main strength. The AI will profit from this strength even when it wastes some shields for double-building barracks, so it's not so bad to leave the orc camp in. On the other hand, because of their units orcs will remain interesting even when then don't have a race-specific building, so taking the camp away is okay too.

- troll arena: I don't think it's overpriced ... even if it were, it shouldn't be changed imho. The main bonus of trolls are their extremely strong and tough units; they don't need to have an exceptional improvement as well.

That spawns an idea - what about removing the orc camp and shifting the troll arena from the trolls to the orcs? Of all races, trolls (and dwarves) can probably best live without a good improvement, because their units are very strong already.

 

[ChaosLord]

Sounds good, just a couple questions about the changes.

First, why are Death Mages losing the 25% bonus? They can't focus on science, they can't focus on mana, all thats left is for them to out-produce their opponents. Even that isn't enough though, Death Mages are usually the first to die in my games. The other civs just out-tech them and get better units. At least thats been my experience, have the other people been experieincing good Death Mages in their games?

If you're really going to take away the production bonus from the Death Mages though, what about adding "Doubles Effect of Wealth" to their Death V tech? Not really amazing, but it could help them.

Also, you said Acolytes to Sorcerers, not Acolytes to Clerics. Was that a typo or did you mean it? I don't see why the upgrade chain should be broken like that since the Acolyte is just a defensive unit too. Unless its just to provide the AI and players with a cheap defensive unit, rather then force them to build the more expensive cleric once they hit the tech.

Lastly, I like the the changes to the dark elf units. At those prices I will actually use some of the units if I end up with dark elves. Should also see them in greater numbers from the AI.

 

[Psyringe]

First, why are Death Mages losing the 25% bonus? They can't focus on science, they can't focus on mana, all thats left is for them to out-produce their opponents. Even that isn't enough though, Death Mages are usually the first to die in my games. The other civs just out-tech them and get better units. At least thats been my experience, have the other people been experieincing good Death Mages in their games?

Actually, yes. In my current game Vlad overran Sss'ra and now rules his own continent, racking up culture massively. At the same time, Mordja crushed Merlin and Tauron and also has a continent for himself now. This experience obviously can't be generalized, but it is possible to have dominating Death mages.

 

[Klyden]

In my game, the death mages were the top three until Rjak got attacked by just about everyone. (I am playing a death mage as well). The top two remain the death mages.

The death mages are probably the hardest to balance because they are so radically different from the other three types of mages.

 

[Lusikka755]

@Drift: I have started working on the new graphics but I have a question about them: Do you want to have building-like graphics for the spells? I believe I would find new graphics for every single spell (I mean those wonder-like spells) in the game with some kind of a structure. So, what do you think?

Here some samples about what is coming:
Upper row: Chaos Forge, Crypt
Lower row: Wizards Guild and my version of the Essence of Death-spell

EDIT: Did I forget to say that they are from HOMM 3

 

[ChaosLord]

Hmm, thats odd, I haven't see a Death Mage get into the top three. But it might be because i'm playing pangea maps(standard size, 70% water). It makes land hard to grab and ensures lots of wars. In my current game all three death mages are still alive but only Vlad is doing fairly well. They all started next to each other and tore up Sss'ra(the poor guy started smack dab in the center of them). Right now Lo'Pan and Raven and conquering them though, so I don't expect them to last too much longer.

I guess its just a matter of chance and the death mages can do well given the oppurtunity. So maybe losing the 25% bonus is needed, but I still think its taking away once of the few bonuses they have.

On another note, has anoyone else noticed scientific civs usually going to the top? Freya, Lo'Pan, and Vlad usually do better then the other mages in their groups. Among the Life mages its pretty open, though I usually see Merlin go up. I'm playing a game using Ariel right now, i've been leading in tech since the middle of the second era and even got a scientific leader. Life Mages are a pretty big switch from Death, you get tech quickly, fast units, and good defenders. Right now i'm building up a horde of Seraphim to invade, I don't think i'll even take defenders along, 6/4/3 should do well enough alone.

 

[Psyringe]

On another note, has anoyone else noticed scientific civs usually going to the top? Freya, Lo'Pan, and Vlad usually do better then the other mages in their groups.

In my games, Tlaloc is usually quite strong. But it's very difficult to determine which mages are "generally" stronger - there are so many factors which influence their performance: How many civs start on a continent of which size, in which direction does everyone expand, how aggressive are their neighbours, which special resource do they get, and - last but not least - how far away are they from the human player. It would take dozens of games to level these factors out. But it's interesting to share experiences about the different AI players.

Right now i'm building up a horde of Seraphim to invade, I don't think i'll even take defenders along, 6/4/3 should do well enough alone.

Let us know how you fared. You might want to take some bombarders with you, especially if you're going against veteran dwarves fortified in a dwarven fortress behind walls in a city on hills.

 

[Kiech]

Wow, this mod looks GREAT! A little dark but looks really good.

I hope this hasn't been asked before, but what happens if you slip into anarchy?

Edit: Nevermind. I see how you set up the techs. Very nice job!

 

[Drift]

Death mages:
Any suggestions on what I should consider for them. They seem to need a slight toning down, but I'm not sure what it could be. Removing the production bonus seemed like a good idea, but it could swing the balance too much. Ideas, thoughts? Just keep 'em simple.

Or are the death mages too strong? Klyden had very dominating death mages, but ChaosLord had them somewhat weak. Psyringe's late beta game has strong death mages.

I'd like to ask people who have played the 1.0 to post a quick mention about the way death mages have fared in the games. Thank you.


Troll Arena stays as it is in 1.0, Orc Camp stays as it was in betas but with a halved cost. It's mere 10 shields now and I am pretty sure that even though AI builds both orc camps and barracks to some cities, there are cities that wouldn't have barracks-ability if it weren't for the orc camps that are probably built to all cities. So the AI benefits from it even though it doesn't understand selling the barracks. Having barracks too is a good thing in some situations as cutting AI off from orcs doesn't remove its ability to upgrade troops and train veterans for a period of time.

Dark Elf costs will remain as they are in 1.0 apart from the low end units costing a bit more (20 & 40). Sorry ChaosLord, not what you wanted to hear I believe. But they are meant as a flavor, not a mainstay (or if they are used as a mainstay, it's supposed to be expensive)

Acolyte - Sorcerer, Cleric-Sorcerer is indeed so that the cheap Acolyte isn't lost when life mage hits Life III (where he usually probably beelines in two techs)

@Lusikka755

Graphics look amazing. I think I prefer the Wizards' Guild I use at the moment, but the Crypt and Chaos Forge are definite improvements.

As for the buildings for spells... Your Essence of Death looks good, but I'd have to get building graphics for all spells. I don't know. I'd have to see the buildings first. I'm inclined to say no. I kinda like the pediapics for the spells I currently have and the idea of buildings representing spells is a little strange.

However, improved graphics for mod's buildings are most welcome.

- -

I continue to be busier and busier still and can't again reply in length. Keep the suggestions coming, I'll try to get the patch done tonight.

 

[Lusikka755]

@Lusikka755

Graphics look amazing. I think I prefer the Wizards' Guild I use at the moment, but the Crypt and Chaos Forge are definite improvements.

As for the buildings for spells... Your Essence of Death looks good, but I'd have to get building graphics for all spells. I don't know. I'd have to see the buildings first. I'm inclined to say no. I kinda like the pediapics for the spells I currently have and the idea of buildings representing spells is a little strange.

However, improved graphics for mod's buildings are most welcome.

Ok, I'll be doing some of the buildings while you're on the trip and we'll discuss about the spells when you're back. But I can say that I could find graphics for every single spell.

Edit: Are the Well of Souls and the Link-thingys (eg. Nature Link) supposed to be buildings or spells, ie. should I make graphics for them?