Masters of Magic

[xienwolf]

Many complaints about the Amurites lately. I was going to post on one of those threads, but I couldn't find one which I wouldn't feel like I was completely hijacking because I am wanting to discuss a slightly different angle than most have approached so far.


First off: In all the complaints and counter-arguments, I have yet to see anyone point out what I just realized while re-writing the strategy section for the Amurites: Firebow + Govannon = Mage (mostly).

Since the Firebows start with Channeling 2, once Govannon trains them Raise Skeleton, then can go on to teach themselves Summon Spectre. Same for the other spheres. This is FAR superior to just having Fireball.

Now, my main purpose for this thread of course, is to ask what Rank 2 spells belong on which other Amurite Units? Their UUs at the moment are just the Chanter (Escape spell innately, but that doesn't get you Channeling 2 to combine with Govannon), Firebow & Wizard (Swordsman doesn't count since it is a shared UU with many other Civs). Now, the Wizard is already a Mage, so really the only present enjoyment is in the Firebow, but it should be expanded.


Some initial ideas:
UU for Champions with Law 1 & Channeling 2: Can learn to cast Valor
UU for Archers who can cast Wall of Stone (thus if you keep them alive and upgrade them to a Firebow you can also cast Stoneskin)


So what are thoughts on this, or other ideas for possible UU for the Amurites that have the same synergy that the Firebows have with Govannon (become essentially a Mage when trained by him)?

 

[Yaotzin]

I'd far rather just add some spells to units (not channeling, just the spells), than add more stuff for Govannon to do. Training half your empire is tedious and of course flavour wise it's just silly.

 

[orgonebox]

I'm always afraid that someone will discover how overpowered the Amurites are, and that they'll be further nerfed. The very fact that Govannon can now train disciple units means that every priest unit is now a decent battle-mage.

I would, however, like to see Govannon pick up another trainable sphere to replace dimensional. Meta-magic wouldn't be bad; nor would law. Perhaps all Amurite units should be able to pick up a channeling promotion? Then Govannon could have a special "train magic-user" ability that would gift a promotable channeling I, so that should you wish to use your xp to have a battling, valor-casting champion, so be it.

Then again, I just play the Amurites as mana-node hungry spellcasters. First conquest? The nearest land with the mana nodes.

 

[Caradoc]

Metamagic makes sense as a trainable sphere, since the Amurite Palace provides that Mana. The Floating Eye could be useful to recon units trained by Govannon. And these units can eventually raise Channeling by going Druid. Maybe a UU could be recon unit with Channeling 2.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I don't think the specific spells Govannon can train ever made sense. He should really be able to train all spheres, preferably through a random, pyPerTurn effect rather than a bunch of unit specific spells. That makes more sense thematically (since he doesn't answer to the magical aristocracy or let them control what he teaches whom), reduces micromanagement significantly, and lets you use him as another archmage. It would be harder to purposefully abuse, but potentially much more powerful.


If you do let so many units use mage spells, I think that all levels of the sphere promotions should require you have at least 1 of the appropriate mana type (you start with fire, so Firebows will always be able to get their fireballs)


I'd probably limit the magic UUs to upper level units. I'm thinking Berserkers should have body magic, and maybe spirit or law too.

How about letting their Immortals start with channeling 1-3, but not necessarily any spells of their own?


How about letting Caves of the Ancestors randomly give out Channeling II to units built there occasionally?


How about Siege Mages instead of catapults/cannons? These would be arcane units with siege-like bombard (like Hemah), plus spells like fireball, meteor, and earthquake from the start, although perhaps unable to learn other arcane spheres.

 

[Demus]

i personally "hate" the way you have to micromanage govannon, having every single unit stop by for 3 turns to have them learn the spells. I'd prefer him getting some type of barnaxus style ability: for the chosen spell spheres, have every unit in your empire gain that spell as long as govannon has learned it. This would reduce micromanage by a lot, and make the amurites a lot easier on the AI aswell.

 

[Verdian]

Could someone mention what spells he is able to teach?

It is hard to say what units should start with what spells, if any. It would be nice if arcane barges got Fair Winds, as well as the other ideas mentioned. The problem is is that as soon as a unit gets a spell, that makes mages a bit less useful for the Amurites. For example, someone mentioned that teaching Amurite mages the fire sphere is silly, because you can get Firebows. The same is true for giving any unit a spell. Adepts, mages, and archmages should be the strongest units of an Amurites army, so any unit that takes away that power (such as Firebows) should be weighed very carefully, if it exists at all. While the Amurites are a magic using society, I think there are better ways of showing that than through the giving of spells to units.

 

[xienwolf]

Well the way I see it is that the other units ARE mages. When such a large portion of your society are mages, you find the need to require they adopt "day jobs" to keep society moving along.

Gov teaches Death, Chaos, Body, Shadow & Fire

 

[stp]

From what I know, Govannon currently teaches:
Fire(Blaze),
Shadow(Blur)
Death(Skeleton)
Body(Haste)
Chaos(Dance of Blades)

Edit: Notice that I've been beaten to it.

Channeling II melee units sound awesome. Anyone considering shadowwalking Phalanxes or Immortals?

As much as I love any addition to the Amurites, I have to agree that giving Channeling II to more units will encourage players to build less mages than other civs, instead of having more like it is thematically correct. I think I remember that Kael said something similar in DREWid's Amurite suggestions thread. So perhaps we should only give Channeling II to national units.

On another thought: There is still a reason to have Fire Mages, they can get Spell extension + free XP for Combat V without actual combat.

I second the idea of Siege Mages. (Where did that idea come from? ) Developing cannons when you can already do the same via magic seems wrong to me.

In another thread MC proposed adding spells to Amurite Berserkers. While this would be a nice idea, I thought about giving the Amurites some sort of wild mage. So instead of getting units with uncontrollable rage, they get unpredictable sorcery.

EDIT: In addition I'd like to restate my idea of giving them a default race promotion that empowers their spells a bit more. Perhaps at the price of some vulnerability. It would be nice if this promotion could also reduce the current minimum spell resistance so that Amurite spellcasters are truly the most powerful magic users.

 

[popejubal]

I'd like to see him train up some Water Walking (even if he has to teach the Water I spell and have them train up to Water Walking). It might be overpowered, but it's a very sexy thought to have Water Walking units that can actually take a city on their own.

 

[giddion]

A little off topic, but i do like where you are heading...

How about some automation for Govannon , so that he can train units more easily. There would have to be some options, but this would remove some of the micro management requirement.

 

[kumquatelvis]

I second the call for wild mages in place of berserkers.

 

[thomas.berubeg]

as well as Siege mages instead of Siege weaponry: after all, Dain spent time as a seige mage...

they could have spells that destroy various defensive buidings inside cities... or hell, target any building.

want them to starve, spell their granary away.


however, the best representaion of a warmgae i've ever seen/ read about was in Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrel.

In that, Warmages use thier powers to move and create roads to help the army move, to communicate between officers, to spell buildings away, change the weather, and various other things.

this could be translated to the amurites fairly easily, i think

 

[Tyrs]

I like the idea of Siege Mages, and possibly the wild mages. But to sorta go back to the original intent of the thread, I think Chanters could become pretty cool mages with Shadow II, while still keeping Escape.Then they would be as much of mages as the Firebows currently are.

 

[stp]

Various spells for Siege Mages could either be given from the start or by giving them a new Arcane Siege promotion that would in combination with the sphere promotions allow the spells.

I fear that the ability to destroy certain buildings would be overpowered. This would make them far more powerful than even dwarven cannons. Either such an ability is available only in rare cases or other siege lines for other civs would need a similar boost.

I like the idea of Siege Mages, and possibly the wild mages. But to sorta go back to the original intent of the thread, I think Chanters could become pretty cool mages with Shadow II, while still keeping Escape.Then they would be as much of mages as the Firebows currently are.

For flavor I can't picture another unit nearly as suited for Shadow II as chanters. Assassins that avoid city defenses and go directly for their victim make sense. On the other hand they get a lowered strength when attacking cities, so they would not be as strong as melee units with it (T4 shadowwalking City RaiderIII sounds overpowered). Still Svartalfar assassins would have to start with it or the Amurites would have deadlier assassins than them, which sounds strange.

 

[Tyrs]

I don't really understand the city attacking penalty for assassins anyway. The whole point of an assassin is to sneak around normal defenses, infiltrate an area unnoticed and kill a specified target. Obviously this has to be translated into Civ terms, but still, it would be easier to slip into a crowded city, kill the target, then vanish into the crowd than it would be to pull that off in the middle of nowhere when the target is aware and alert to danger.
I hadn't thought of the Svartalfar at all, you're right. They should probably have a UU assassin that's better anyway, it fits their theme.
As for siege mages, I'd be happy with something that can cast earthquake, no need for super-specialized anti-building spells, and keep similar stats as the current siege unit, high withdrawal and collateral. Though giving a spell similar to Dragon's Breath with a single Meteor for a Cannon replacement could be cool

 

[Grey Fox]

But then again, an assassin is for killing key targets, not regiments of units.

 

[MaxAstro]

My thoughts on Govannon: My understanding is that Govannon's rise to power is basically a revolution in Amurite society, as his teachings put magic in the hands of the commoners, rather than the elite magocracy. I think the way I'd change him to reduce micromanagement is to create a new building, the School of Govannon, that can only be constructed once Govannon is trained. Then, using code similar to Barnaxus, have the Schools of Govannon give free magic promotions to units built in the city based on what spells Govannon knows. Allow Govannon to keep his ability to train units manually, but once you get the Schools built they will do your training for you, reducing the micromanagement hassle. For balance reasons, the Schools should probably only train first level spells.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

i like maxastro's school idea, it will help with micro considerably!

 

[orgonebox]

Have the School of Govannon be a guild - like Galen, only achievable through a single event, and not restricted to the Amurites - like Mary Morbus. Spreads like the Guild of Hammers (which seems to happen often enough), requires similar funding, and provides a chance that a unit will have the channeling promotion.