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Maya Challenge

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Rhye's and Fall of Civilization' started by Metal Alloy Man, May 19, 2008.

  1. Metal Alloy Man

    Metal Alloy Man Back in Black

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    Since the Maya are such a small civ with such a good tech rate and if you defeat the Aztecs you have a huge amount of room to expand I have a challenge for you. So here's my challenge.

    What if the Mayans discovered Europe?​

    1. Discover Europe (one of your units is in view and can see Europe) by 1300

    2. Invade one European country by 1600

    3. No colonies in Mexico and Caribbean in 1733

    4. Defeat the Americans

    5. Be the first civ to complete the tech tree
     
  2. AnotherPacifist

    AnotherPacifist Deity

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    In my spaceship game I've definitely done 1, 5, but being pacifist I never invaded Europe, and I gave Havana to the Americans (who became my vassals).
     
  3. sedna17

    sedna17 Emperor

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    This is a pretty good challenge. I wish the Mayans got conquistadors when they arrived at the shores of Europe though. Or spread the plague to them. There's no justice for oppressed peoples.

    I've completed steps 1 - 3 and am in reasonable shape to complete the others, but I thought I'd post what I have now.

    I settled Oaxaca and then north of Tenochitlan (Tuitan), a good site and a set-up that allows you to put up cities which work all of Aztec lands with only one city in danger from their rise. The Temple of Kulkunan was built a few turns after I spawned, but I was going for Calendar by 600 AD to get 2/3 UHV anyway. I balanced expansion and research to get this (plus Bronze working) just by the deadline.

    Next stop was feudalism, for defense against the dog soldiers. I settled a site near New Orleans and then Chicago to get iron (yay, crossbows) while teching across the bottom of the tree. My first scientist got my Alphabet, so I could build research and also trade with the Incans once the Aztecs arose. I moved my palace to Tuitan just before the Aztecs rose. They vassaled and settled down to slowly starve to death in their one-square Tenochitlan. I was immediately able to trade for code of laws and currency, and then sell of some other techs to the Incan in order to maintain my research rate.

    It was still tough to get optics and across to Europe by 1300, but I managed it, sighting Spain in 1270. A few years later my second caravel opened up trade with Asia. Trading with everyone allowed me to fill in most of the pre-renaissance techs before I had to research astronomy in order to invade Europe.

    Portugal and England declared war (probably Monty's fault, if I had to do it again I'd kill him on spawn rather than take him as a vassal), so the obvious choices were Ireland or Ponta Delgada. Except it turned out that the Celts under Brennus still ruled Ireland, so Portugal it was. The island was weakly defended and fell easily in 1580.

    The spaniards beat me to Cuba, so I went to war with them and took La Habana while founding another Caribbean city. The rest of Mexico (and all of the Western US) was controlled by me or unsettled), so I met this goal. The war with Spain would continue on (i.e. they pillaged my fishing boats) for the longest time because Spain insisted on getting Havana back. Eventually I gained one of the Spanish cities on their mainland in a Congress and traded that back to them for peace.

    Stability was an issue for much of this time, mostly I was unstable. I lost Ponta Delgada due to instability at some point (the message telling me this was buggy and I simply didn't notice for many turns), but things are looking much more stable now (I'm only shaky). I've colonized the Western US and am trying to gain a tech edge on America to wipe them out. More later...
     

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  4. Register666666

    Register666666 Warlord

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    I've been trying it on monarch, I can't deal with the inflation, it's 1545 and the inflation is at 95%.

    I have no idea how you're supposed to deal with that and keep up with research.
     
  5. archontophoenix

    archontophoenix Chieftain

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    I've become obsessed with this challenge over the past few days and have tried the opening (through 1300) several times. The best I did was to reach Portugal and Spain in 1280, but by then I had only two cities (Oaxaca and Houston-or-whatever, due north of Oaxaca and just outside the Aztec spawn area), no settlers in production, and a crappy economy.

    I did, however, discover something that does not seem to work, namely trying to build the Temple of K. for the golden age -- it takes too long to research Code of Laws, and when you get the golden age, your civilization is still too small to get much benefit from it. Probably better to have your golden age in 1750, assuming you haven't lost a city by then.

    I used my Great Scientists to build academies or join a city, rather than bulb Alphabet, which doesn't take that long to research. I suspect the math favors the academy approach.

    sedna17, what techs did you research, aside from beelining Calendar and Optics? I've successfully researched only Archery, Monarchy, and Alphabet outside of those two techs. It sure would be nice to have Currency earlier, though.
     
  6. Dabur

    Dabur Prince

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    hey ,

    any chance we see a save sedna ?

    congrats by the way , its not that easy !

    have a great playing day :)
     
  7. archontophoenix

    archontophoenix Chieftain

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    After staying up until 3 am last night, I've finally managed to sight Europe in 1290 in much better shape than my previous attempts -- like sedna, I founded Chicago; also founded Houston, then moved my capital to Aztec territory (Coyuca rather than Tuitan, to give more room to Houston).

    Now I need some clarification of the rules:

    2. Invade one European country by 1600

    Does "invade" just require you to move a military unit into the territory of a European country with which you are at war, or do you actually have to fight, or capture or raze a city, or even eliminate or vassalize the civ in question? Do offshore territories of the civ count, or do you have to fight on the European mainland (or British isles)?

    3. No colonies in Mexico and Caribbean in 1733

    I assume this means no cities other than those of the Maya, Aztec, and Inca in those areas -- but it could also be interpreted as disallowing the Aztec and Inca. And is culture from other civs allowed into the area -- for example, if Spain founds a city in Venezuela and its culture spills into the Caribbean, does that violate the rule?

    If a civ is your vassal, do its cities or culture still violate the rule?

    4. Defeat the Americans

    Do you have to eliminate the Americans entirely, or is it sufficient to vassalize them? Or even just to take some territory from them?
     
  8. Metal Alloy Man

    Metal Alloy Man Back in Black

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    2. Invade means you must control or vassalize the entire European country( Eg. England, France, Portugal, Spain, Rome, Germany, etc.). However you do not have to control any of their colonies, just their spawn area. I know this a challenge with stability but it's doable.

    3. It's the basically the same as the Aztec UHV, any native, Incan or Aztec cities are acceptable. If culture spills into the area it doesn't matter as long as it's a small amount( no more than 5 squares). If a civ is your vassal it's cities and culture do not violate the rule. It's supposed to be like the Aztec UHV but without California and the Southern United States.

    4. You must eliminate the Americans entirely.

    I appreciate you trying out this challenge archontophoenix, I've been very busy lately and havn't had a sufficient block of time to try it out yet. Hope this clears some things up.
     
  9. archontophoenix

    archontophoenix Chieftain

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    Argh. After several tries using sedna's palace squat on the Aztecs, I've given up on that strategy. Each time I tried this, I was Stable or Shaky before the palace move, and Unstable or Collapsing after. And each time, Oaxaca declared independence by 1600 -- even in one game where I had Courthouses in all my cities. Losing my original capital and all its infrastructure makes it pretty difficult to make further progress.

    I did actually try forgoing the free workers and founding my first capital in Aztec territory, but it takes a lot of turns to build new workers. It might be possible to pull this off if you skipped going for Calendar, but it would be tough -- no Dye or Spice plantations.

    Anyway, I've started a new game, in which I found Oaxaca as usual, but my next cities are Chicago and Houston, which aren't in the Aztec spawn area. I research Bronze Working, Calendar, Archery, but then stick in Currency to try to pay the extra city maintenance for having Chicago so far from my capital. If I then spend a few turns building Wealth in Oaxaca and Chicago, I can keep the tech rate high enough to make up for the extra turns taken to research Currency, and still get a Caravel off the coast of Spain in 1300 (I did pop Iron Working from a goody hut, but I didn't get any cash from huts, so I don't think you need to be unusually lucky to pull this off).

    In this game, it turns out that I'm in one of those weird alternate worlds where Jerusalem was destroyed, and so there's very little Judaism or Christianity. Rome still exists and is the score leader -- in fact, they got a Caravel into the Caribbean in 1320! But they're the only Christian country I've encountered so far -- Spain is Jewish, Germany Buddhist, most of the rest of Europe Muslim. Germany has eliminated the Netherlands.

    Right now it's 1475. I've gotten Astronomy and I'm researching Gunpowder. I'll let you know whether I manage to knock over Portugal by 1600. With Europe religiously fragmented, the Europeans may take to fighting each other and be a little weaker than usual -- we'll see.
     
  10. archontophoenix

    archontophoenix Chieftain

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    So I'm scouting around Europe, checking out possible invadees. Portugal looks mighty well fortified, and has recently taken to founding colonies along the coast of Africa. Maybe a little too tough for me... France, England, and Germany are all quite healthy, and Spain is positively scary -- far ahead of the other Europeans in techs, and just behind score leader Persia.

    What about a civ that has collapsed? I'm not sure that's allowed, but the rule says invade one European country, not one civ, and the clarification refers to the spawn area, not who controls it when you attack. So there are some dead civ candidates that might be easier than a live one:

    . The Dutch: No cities left in their spawn area, so nothing to invade.

    . Rome: The mighty empire collapsed a few turns after their Caribbean vacation of 1320. Still, there are four cities guarded by Pretorians left in their spawn area. Four cities is probably too many to capture by 1600.

    . Greece: Hmm, Athens is the only city in their spawn area at present. Unfortunately, it's under new management -- Spanish.

    Well, it's getting on towards the late 16th century, and I have a Galleon with a Cannon and a couple of Crossbows in the Mediterranean, so I go for Athens. The same turn, the Spanish land and found La Habana.

    Athens is not so well defended at first, but the Spaniards built a Conquistador there and wipe out my invasion. They fortify La Habana and laugh off my attempt to attack it by sea.

    And then in 1595, my empire collapses.

    As a matter of good writing style, I officially frown on smileys. But in this case, :cry:.
     
  11. Dabur

    Dabur Prince

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    goodmrning folks ,


    hmmmm , so this is a tough nut to crack , ...

    what about not moving the palace ?


    what about going after germany ?

    as for spain , see the resources ? get a lot of defensive units and sit on them , make sure you have plenty of defense , and trow some workers for the construction of a fort with them in it , dont even think about going after them unless you have a great invasion fleet ! ( just took them out this way ) and make sure plenty of other civs declare war on them , with all the spanish tied up in france or germany they will become unstable and eventually collapse , .... :mischief:

    but to do this as the maya , .... hmmm , good luck !

    Have a nice D day :)
     
  12. Metal Alloy Man

    Metal Alloy Man Back in Black

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    One collapsed European country will work.
     
  13. archontophoenix

    archontophoenix Chieftain

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    Metal Alloy Man:

    Does that mean that conquering an already-collapsed European country fulfills condition 2, or that causing a European country to collapse (without completely controlling the spawn area) fulfills the condition, or both? (And if the latter, how would you know whether you caused the collapse, or whether the civ was about to collapse anyway?)
     
  14. Metal Alloy Man

    Metal Alloy Man Back in Black

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    You have to control one European country's spawn area, it doesn't matter if they've collapsed already or are still alive or if you cause them to collapse. Basically, only #1 will work because the whole point is to control their spawn area.
     
  15. Dabur

    Dabur Prince

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    yes and no , ....

    just did a nice invasion into spain and portugal , after controlling all the cities in iberia they collapsed :) but germany , even after the spawn it did not succeed :(

    next test will be towards the vikings , that should be fun :mischief:
     
  16. archontophoenix

    archontophoenix Chieftain

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    I haven't gotten much farther on this challenge, and I have to go out of town for a few weeks, so I'll have to wait to make more progress until I come back.

    But meanwhile, I've done some experiments with founding Tuitan but not moving the palace there, and refusing to give it to the Aztecs. The result seems to leave me in a better position both in terms of stability and production than my other attempts.

    Since I don't have much experience with refusing flips, I had to play around to figure out how to defeat the Aztecs when they spawn, and I came up with the following recipe. This technique seems pretty reliable, and possibly useful to anyone else undertaking this challenge.

    Ingredients: 3 Maya Crossbows; 1 Maya Warrior; the Maya city of Tuitan; roads in the right places; the Aztec civilization.

    Time Required: 4 turns of combat; 10 turns before the Aztecs finish rising.

    In preparation for this recipe, you may want to make sure that you don't build unnecessary roads through the Aztec spawn area -- build the routes you'll actually use, but no more. See below for why this might matter.

    Leading up to turn 210: You may want to take this opportunity to whip Tuitan (whip it good) to a small size, if you have anything you want to finish. Tuitan will suffer a lot of unhappiness after you evacuate your military from it, as you'll have to do in the 10 turns (211 - 221) of the Aztec rise, so it won't be very productive for a while.

    By the end of 210, you must have all your units out of the Aztec spawn area (including out of Tuitan) to ensure that you don't lose any unnecessarily to the rising Aztec.

    By the start of turn 211, you'll want one Warrior and at least 3 Crossbows (2 is sometimes enough, but use 3 to be sure) on the Stone next to Oaxaca. You must have a road leading through this plot and the adjacent Dye (but you normally will have built one there anyway).

    At the start of 211, the Aztecs appear on their starting plot just north of the Dye, and your culture is cleared from the surrounding plots. Declare war and attack with the 3 Crossbows; this will leave them on the Dye (actually, this recipe seems to work even if you don't attack, but just move sufficient forces onto the Dye; up to you how much you want to reduce the size of the Aztec military). Usually all the attacks will succeed, but sometimes you will lose a Crossbow. Move the Warrior onto the Dye, too, but don't attack with it.

    Turn 212 dawns, and a miracle occurs (reliably, as far as I can tell, if you leave a strong enough force sitting on the Dye): the Aztecs found Tenochtitlan, but leave it defended only by a Settler -- all their military is repelled by your forces and drawn northwest to the irresistible prize of undefended Tuitan.

    Move the Warrior into Tenochtitlan and raze it. The Aztecs disappear, for the moment. Now move your Crossbows back to the Stone, or to Oaxaca if it needs pacifying.

    At the start of 213, you finally get the expected message asking whether you want Tuitan to flip to the Aztecs; refuse. Your culture temporarily disappears from the entire Aztec spawn area. The Aztec army, so gone just one turn ago, will reappear somewhere in the spawn area. If you have been careless enough to leave some of your Crossbows in the spawn area, they may defect; this is why you left just a Warrior there (you won't really miss it if it does defect).

    The Aztec won't talk with you at this point, so you can't make peace with them. However, each time I've tried this, their army appears at a spot that is two or more moves away from Tuitan, so they won't be able to capture it this turn either. (But if the spawn area were completely filled with roads, they might be able to get to Tuitan immediately.)

    Rescue your Warrior and the Worker you captured in Tenochtitlan, if they're still yours, by moving them out of the spawn area.

    At the start of 214, the Aztecs will have moved towards Tuitan. But now the second miracle occurs: the Aztecs, although certain of taking the undefended city they so badly need, will agree to peace (sometimes this takes until turn 215, so don't despair unless they actually take Tuitan -- which they never have when I've tried this). So end the war, and they should instantly retreat outside your borders. If you're lucky, they'll hang around and intercept any barbs and natives heading your way.

    (Sometimes the Aztecs remain inside your borders after you make peace, even when you have no Open Borders with them. I suspect this is a bug; it's definitely annoying, but you can just let them sit there.)

    You're not quite done: the rise of a civ takes 10 turns, and during that time, your units are still likely to defect if they end a turn in the spawn area. So you'll have to keep Tuitan undefended for this whole period, however inconvenient that is.
     
  17. Metal Alloy Man

    Metal Alloy Man Back in Black

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    I'll try this challenge myself next weekend on Monarch and see what happens using this stratey archontophoenix.

    According to Dabur it's possible to invade a European country by 1600 so that's good news. It seems to me that the toughest part will be to complete the tech tree first and not overexpanding. Then, again if AnotherPacifist can win a domination victory as the Vikings I think this challenge is definetly doable.
     
  18. Dabur

    Dabur Prince

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    yep it can be done


    all one needs is a good dose of luck :) needless to say if you have a few events that are good for you its even better , for example the pinch promotion early on
     
  19. Metal Alloy Man

    Metal Alloy Man Back in Black

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    Okay here's my plan

    Techs

    Sailing->Mathematics->Calender->Bronze Working->Metal Casting->Iron Working->Bulb Alphabet->Machinery->Compass->Monarchy->Feudalism->Guilds->Optics

    Cities

    1. Found Oaxaca between the stone and the corn and leave it as your capital.
    2. Found Tuitan on the forest south of the corn and beside the spices
    3. Found Chicago
    4. Found New Orleans

    I cannot emphasize the importance of scientist specialists enough, have 2 in Oaxaca and 2 in Tuitan.
    (Note: keep lots of Holkan in Tuitan to fight the dog soldiers but make sure they don't flip to the Aztecs)
     
  20. sedna17

    sedna17 Emperor

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    I guess under Metal Alloy Man's clarification my game doesn't quite meet the challenge, since I only took half of Portugal's spawn area. I finished it up anyway.

    Stability was a challenge through most of the game. Economy and expansion were never good. After meeting (almost) the first three challenges (see above post), the Mayans expanded to control the western through the Mississippi, pinning the Americans on the Eastern seaboard. Then, we attempted to tech up and get ahead of them. Eventually, there was the first world war. We were with England and Russia (+vassals) against the rest of the world, notably an uber-powerful Germany supported by the Vikings and Spain (who held America as their vassal). The first time this war happened, we took America too quickly and collapsed. Trying again, we beelined for radio and built the Cristo Redentor. Now able to make full use of our civic options the war provided a critical boost to our stability and we destroyed the Americans, keeping the US cities and giving the Canadian ones away.

    From this point we took a defensive posture, building some navy but mostly things to help our stability. Basically we were unstable (but not collapsing) the entire time. Commonwealth was probably helpful. I was also disappointed to see that switching out of free market doesn't immediately end great depressions (which were rampant), so we stayed in environmentalism for most of the time.

    Germany and Russia were both scary (Germany took basically all of Africa and a lot of Europe), but eventually they went back to war, launched about 20 nukes at each other and then collapsed. From there, we were pretty clear tech leaders, though the English and Portuguese were competitors. Also, the global warming left over from the war was really annoying. At some point we vassaled a re-risen France.

    In keeping with Mayan tradition, we completed the tech tree (first) at the end of the world: 2012.



     

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