Maya Challenge
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AnotherPacifist
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Jet
No, no, please. Please.
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(edited to remove land; I misread the Demo screen article)
The answer is: around 108 thousand soldiers. Soldiers are the game's unit of power; see The inner workings of the Demo screen explained.
I looked at the code (I think it's CvTeamAI::AI_surrenderTrade()), and I had a sample game where I could delete one Warrior at a time until Monty changed from being willing to vassalize to not. The code appears to say Monty will decline to vassalize to you if:
* he doesn't like you
-3 Close Borders was not enough to make him refuse, but even if you have more than -3, you can give him Meditation or whatever if you have Alphabet. But when he offered and I said no, I became his worst enemy, and then he refused for that reason.
* his power is greater than the world average
It shouldn't be.
* his power is greater than 2/3 of yours
This is the key factor. I suppose Monty's power could vary if any barb units flip to him, but in my sample game, the minimum was 108K soldiers. Here's the breakdown of my power in that game, in K soldiers:
12 population (total city pop 24)
13 buildings (1 Wall x 2, 3 Barracks x 3, 1 Forge x 2)
26 units (6 Longbow x 3, 3 Warrior x 1, 1 Galley x 2, 1 Trireme x 3)
57 tech ( [Sailing, Hunting, Mining x 1] - [Wheel, Alpha, MC, Compass x 4] - [Math, Archery x 6] - [BW, Machinery x 8] - [IW x 10] )
By the way, some leaders other than Monty have a personality factor (iVassalPowerModifier in the XML) for how they judge their own power for this purpose.
The answer is: around 108 thousand soldiers. Soldiers are the game's unit of power; see The inner workings of the Demo screen explained.
I looked at the code (I think it's CvTeamAI::AI_surrenderTrade()), and I had a sample game where I could delete one Warrior at a time until Monty changed from being willing to vassalize to not. The code appears to say Monty will decline to vassalize to you if:
* he doesn't like you
-3 Close Borders was not enough to make him refuse, but even if you have more than -3, you can give him Meditation or whatever if you have Alphabet. But when he offered and I said no, I became his worst enemy, and then he refused for that reason.
* his power is greater than the world average
It shouldn't be.
* his power is greater than 2/3 of yours
This is the key factor. I suppose Monty's power could vary if any barb units flip to him, but in my sample game, the minimum was 108K soldiers. Here's the breakdown of my power in that game, in K soldiers:
12 population (total city pop 24)
13 buildings (1 Wall x 2, 3 Barracks x 3, 1 Forge x 2)
26 units (6 Longbow x 3, 3 Warrior x 1, 1 Galley x 2, 1 Trireme x 3)
57 tech ( [Sailing, Hunting, Mining x 1] - [Wheel, Alpha, MC, Compass x 4] - [Math, Archery x 6] - [BW, Machinery x 8] - [IW x 10] )
By the way, some leaders other than Monty have a personality factor (iVassalPowerModifier in the XML) for how they judge their own power for this purpose.
Jet
No, no, please. Please.
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Here's the opening I'm working on. I've basically made it work, although I'll need another run to get a strong game to continue with.
* 3 cities in the Yucatan, then settle the Mississippi
* As far as I can tell, parking a Warrior on the hills Dye will trick the barb AI into thinking that you have an unassailable chokepoint, so that it never attacks you. So you can stick to 4 Warriors until Longbows.
* Great Lighthouse in Oaxaca. I got it 2 out of 2 times, but that felt lucky. I think you could skip it, and make up for it in the short term by settling Chichen Itza earlier.
* Techs:
Sailing (GLT, skip earliest roads)
BW (chop/mine the hill forest dye)
Math, Calendar (dye, forts)
^ For all I know, you could actually research Calendar before BW and still make this opening work. I haven't tried.
Monarchy (revolt to HR + Slavery, start whipping)
IW (mine jungle hills)
MC (start slow build in Olximche of Trireme which will reveal Incan coast and then wait for upgrade. I think you could put off MC, and instead do this with the Workboat that will go to New Orleans. But this also lets you start with a Forge in Oaxaca, which might be worth it.)
Archery, Feudalism (revolt to Vassalage and build Longbows)
In any order: Alphabet, Compass, Machinery
Guilds
Optics (bulbed)
* Workers, working together:
1.1. Farm Corn
1.2. Mine, then road Silver (Sailing hooks it up)
1.3. Quarry Stone
1.4. Mine over hills Dye
1.5. Farm other Corn
2. Fill in all roads and add grass farm
3. Add jungle mines, Dyes, and forts when the techs get researched
* Go fairly light on buildings in order to maximize the production of settlers (to grab NA land) and units (to defend the NA settlers and pump your power rating so that Monty vassalizes). You're not going to get much immediate benefit from a lot of Ball Courts and stuff anyway.
* Oaxaca:
Monument while waiting for Sailing - but I guess this could be the Chichen Itza Warrior or Work Boat instead
Great Lighthouse
Granary, grow to around size 5
Settler, Warrior, Work Boat for Chicken Itza
Harbor
Library, then starting at size 6 or 7, hire 2 scientists to speed up the first great person. Academy Scientist or settle Merchant, either way.
Then while working resources, sometimes Jungle mine, sometimes coasts, sometimes Scientists:
Forge
Walls (still waiting for Feudalism)
Barracks
whip Settler for New Orleans for 3 or 4 pop
Work Boat for New Orleans
a couple Longbows while growing
whip Settler for Iron
a couple Longbows while growing
* Olximche (Silver/Fish):
Monument, Workboat
always working Fish + Silver, whip Granary, Harbor, Library
Then build these slowly off just the Silver mine:
Galley, Scout -- Scout gets Cuba hut, NA coast hut (not the inland one, too dangerous), Brazil hut, waits to meet HC, Argentina hut
Trireme -- explores Peru coast then returns to Caribbean and waits for upgrade
Barracks
Longbow
Meanwhile grow to the happy cap (7). At the happy cap you can stagnate on jungle grass mines for a couple turns, but then you have to switch to 2 scientists to get one in time to bulb Optics.
* Chichen Itza:
Get Work Boat from Oaxaca.
Work Crab, Dye, Farm, and whip heavily.
Whip Granary, Harbor, Barracks, Longbows. Skip the Library until after 1300 (or until whip weariness forces you to stagnate); you need the production more.
* I don't really have a plan for the plague, but I think that even if you had health buildings, the plague is still going to clear out at least the cities on the Yucatan. Ideally, only Warriors will be left there at that point. You can try to whip Lighthouses when it hits.
* 3 cities in the Yucatan, then settle the Mississippi
* As far as I can tell, parking a Warrior on the hills Dye will trick the barb AI into thinking that you have an unassailable chokepoint, so that it never attacks you. So you can stick to 4 Warriors until Longbows.
* Great Lighthouse in Oaxaca. I got it 2 out of 2 times, but that felt lucky. I think you could skip it, and make up for it in the short term by settling Chichen Itza earlier.
* Techs:
Sailing (GLT, skip earliest roads)
BW (chop/mine the hill forest dye)
Math, Calendar (dye, forts)
^ For all I know, you could actually research Calendar before BW and still make this opening work. I haven't tried.
Monarchy (revolt to HR + Slavery, start whipping)
IW (mine jungle hills)
MC (start slow build in Olximche of Trireme which will reveal Incan coast and then wait for upgrade. I think you could put off MC, and instead do this with the Workboat that will go to New Orleans. But this also lets you start with a Forge in Oaxaca, which might be worth it.)
Archery, Feudalism (revolt to Vassalage and build Longbows)
In any order: Alphabet, Compass, Machinery
Guilds
Optics (bulbed)
* Workers, working together:
1.1. Farm Corn
1.2. Mine, then road Silver (Sailing hooks it up)
1.3. Quarry Stone
1.4. Mine over hills Dye
1.5. Farm other Corn
2. Fill in all roads and add grass farm
3. Add jungle mines, Dyes, and forts when the techs get researched
* Go fairly light on buildings in order to maximize the production of settlers (to grab NA land) and units (to defend the NA settlers and pump your power rating so that Monty vassalizes). You're not going to get much immediate benefit from a lot of Ball Courts and stuff anyway.
* Oaxaca:
Monument while waiting for Sailing - but I guess this could be the Chichen Itza Warrior or Work Boat instead
Great Lighthouse
Granary, grow to around size 5
Settler, Warrior, Work Boat for Chicken Itza
Harbor
Library, then starting at size 6 or 7, hire 2 scientists to speed up the first great person. Academy Scientist or settle Merchant, either way.
Then while working resources, sometimes Jungle mine, sometimes coasts, sometimes Scientists:
Forge
Walls (still waiting for Feudalism)
Barracks
whip Settler for New Orleans for 3 or 4 pop
Work Boat for New Orleans
a couple Longbows while growing
whip Settler for Iron
a couple Longbows while growing
* Olximche (Silver/Fish):
Monument, Workboat
always working Fish + Silver, whip Granary, Harbor, Library
Then build these slowly off just the Silver mine:
Galley, Scout -- Scout gets Cuba hut, NA coast hut (not the inland one, too dangerous), Brazil hut, waits to meet HC, Argentina hut
Trireme -- explores Peru coast then returns to Caribbean and waits for upgrade
Barracks
Longbow
Meanwhile grow to the happy cap (7). At the happy cap you can stagnate on jungle grass mines for a couple turns, but then you have to switch to 2 scientists to get one in time to bulb Optics.
* Chichen Itza:
Get Work Boat from Oaxaca.
Work Crab, Dye, Farm, and whip heavily.
Whip Granary, Harbor, Barracks, Longbows. Skip the Library until after 1300 (or until whip weariness forces you to stagnate); you need the production more.
* I don't really have a plan for the plague, but I think that even if you had health buildings, the plague is still going to clear out at least the cities on the Yucatan. Ideally, only Warriors will be left there at that point. You can try to whip Lighthouses when it hits.
Jet
No, no, please. Please.
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This is about as well as one can do with my opening.
The special events were +75 beakers to Feudalism, +2 hammers south of Olximche, and peace with natives. (I haven't used the last one yet.)
Somehow I managed to avoid the plague when I contacted Europe. I did whip two Lighthouses just before that.
France is advanced with Optics, and Spain only needs Compass, but Portugal is Buddhist and a good target if Spain doesn't get him first. I traded Compass to Willhem for Aesthetics and gave Aesthetics to Ragnar, but otherwise everyone is kind of eyeing me suspiciously.
I'm going to send a pair of Longbows to check Ecuador. Until last turn when I recontacted HC, instead of "we're doing fine on our own" he said "your lands are too far away". Ecuador could tip it and would be a solid city, but I'm not sure if it's worth breaking peace with the natives.
I think I should adopt Caste System and Workshop spam. I don't think I have the hammers to set up another city in North America before invading Europe, and instead should build more Workers and settle Cuba and Haiti promptly, maybe Trinidad too.
I'm researching Banking for trade bait, but after that it's Gunpowder and Astronomy, finishing them together of course.
The special events were +75 beakers to Feudalism, +2 hammers south of Olximche, and peace with natives. (I haven't used the last one yet.)
Somehow I managed to avoid the plague when I contacted Europe. I did whip two Lighthouses just before that.
France is advanced with Optics, and Spain only needs Compass, but Portugal is Buddhist and a good target if Spain doesn't get him first. I traded Compass to Willhem for Aesthetics and gave Aesthetics to Ragnar, but otherwise everyone is kind of eyeing me suspiciously.
I'm going to send a pair of Longbows to check Ecuador. Until last turn when I recontacted HC, instead of "we're doing fine on our own" he said "your lands are too far away". Ecuador could tip it and would be a solid city, but I'm not sure if it's worth breaking peace with the natives.
I think I should adopt Caste System and Workshop spam. I don't think I have the hammers to set up another city in North America before invading Europe, and instead should build more Workers and settle Cuba and Haiti promptly, maybe Trinidad too.
I'm researching Banking for trade bait, but after that it's Gunpowder and Astronomy, finishing them together of course.
archontophoenix
Chieftain
Wow, nice start. Definitely better than anything I managed, in that you've already built a wonder and have such high stability in 1300. Does this mean it's better to vassalize the Aztecs than to take over their lands at the start? I would have thought you'd really need the hammers from Tenochtitlan or Tuitan to be able to develop a large enough military.
AnotherPacifist
Deity
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You'll have more than enough production from New Orleans and Chicago, and definitely Denver. Happiness for the Mayans is tough due to no religion, and the Aztecs provide that. (you can also steal or trade some techs from them if you have them research the Aesthetic line) When America appears, they will be indispensible to absorb some conquests in barren Canadian land.
archontophoenix
Chieftain
But will you have it soon enough?
With regard to Jet's Ecuador idea, it might be worthwhile to wait until the Barbs take it, and then take it from them, rather than breaking the peace with the Natives (I forget when the Barbs are scheduled to attack Tiwanaku, but I think it comes up pretty soon). I've found the Natives to be helpful keeping the English in check in northeast North America -- they will often take an English city at a time when you're not yet ready for war with England.
Jet
No, no, please. Please.
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I don't really know if this opening is better than a squat. It's just what I'm rolling with.
I played on and I think the 1600 deadline requires a tighter focus than I had in the last few turns of what I posted. Restarting from 1250 I was able to muster 3 Cannons, 2 Trebs, 1 Musket, 1 Pike, 1 Crossbow, and 1 Longbow, and that was not quite enough to take Lisbon, much less Ponta Delgada. I could do better by delaying the Caribbean settlers and maybe improving the diplo, but I'm also considering tricks such as
* Settling the Canary islands or some place and getting Portugal as a voluntary vassal. Not quite an "invasion", but might get the job done.
* half bulbing Astronomy (easier said than done)
I played on and I think the 1600 deadline requires a tighter focus than I had in the last few turns of what I posted. Restarting from 1250 I was able to muster 3 Cannons, 2 Trebs, 1 Musket, 1 Pike, 1 Crossbow, and 1 Longbow, and that was not quite enough to take Lisbon, much less Ponta Delgada. I could do better by delaying the Caribbean settlers and maybe improving the diplo, but I'm also considering tricks such as
* Settling the Canary islands or some place and getting Portugal as a voluntary vassal. Not quite an "invasion", but might get the job done.
* half bulbing Astronomy (easier said than done)
AnotherPacifist
Deity
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Portugal will probably not vassalize to anything less than a top 3 civ (usually Germany, Turkey or Russia later on). You're just par with him.
Is there actually a great person who can bulb astronomy?
Is there actually a great person who can bulb astronomy?
Jet
No, no, please. Please.
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If I'm reading the code right I need 150% of his soldiers.
Scientists bulb Astro. Great People Tech Prefences (sic)
Scientists bulb Astro. Great People Tech Prefences (sic)
Jet
No, no, please. Please.
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1460 AD: Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win.
I did it with a voluntary vassal. I've learned you need two things:
1. Astronomy, or they'll say "your land is too far away"
2. More power than them (in peace time, at least, the ratio you need closer to 200% than 150%), or they'll say "we're doing fine on our own"
And then it seems to help if they're in a war.
So the strategy entails building a lot of units to boost your power rating, but you don't lose any by attacking. After a couple tries I had a sense of how many buildings and cities I should build before building only units. I tried Caste System, but this time I stuck with Slavery. Even Chichen Itza is great for Hereditary Rule whip abuse, 1 Longbow every 4 turns with a Forge.
It seems to take some luck. Sometimes Portugal turns out weak, sometimes strong. This time Germany vassalized Portugal first, but I got Astronomy early, and that gave me an opportunity to grab the Netherlands as a vassal when they were fighting France. Willhem appears to be in a decent position to protect himself, and I think I'm in an okay position to fight off France.
I tried different research paths. This is the first time I researched Astronomy right after Optics. I like it. Between Caravels and vassal research you can trade around a lot, and the GLH compensates for losing the reduced research costs. In this save you can usually pick up Philo from Greece (if they don't collapse), and this try I was lucky to pick up Divine Right from Mansa and trade it to Liz for Banking.
I didn't do it this time, but I learned that with the reduced research rate you can bulb Astro with one great scientist (in vanilla it takes more like 1.75), and I bulbed Optics with my second great person (my first was a settled merchant), so it should be possible to get Astro by around 1300 if you want.
I did it with a voluntary vassal. I've learned you need two things:
1. Astronomy, or they'll say "your land is too far away"
2. More power than them (in peace time, at least, the ratio you need closer to 200% than 150%), or they'll say "we're doing fine on our own"
And then it seems to help if they're in a war.
So the strategy entails building a lot of units to boost your power rating, but you don't lose any by attacking. After a couple tries I had a sense of how many buildings and cities I should build before building only units. I tried Caste System, but this time I stuck with Slavery. Even Chichen Itza is great for Hereditary Rule whip abuse, 1 Longbow every 4 turns with a Forge.
It seems to take some luck. Sometimes Portugal turns out weak, sometimes strong. This time Germany vassalized Portugal first, but I got Astronomy early, and that gave me an opportunity to grab the Netherlands as a vassal when they were fighting France. Willhem appears to be in a decent position to protect himself, and I think I'm in an okay position to fight off France.
I tried different research paths. This is the first time I researched Astronomy right after Optics. I like it. Between Caravels and vassal research you can trade around a lot, and the GLH compensates for losing the reduced research costs. In this save you can usually pick up Philo from Greece (if they don't collapse), and this try I was lucky to pick up Divine Right from Mansa and trade it to Liz for Banking.
I didn't do it this time, but I learned that with the reduced research rate you can bulb Astro with one great scientist (in vanilla it takes more like 1.75), and I bulbed Optics with my second great person (my first was a settled merchant), so it should be possible to get Astro by around 1300 if you want.
Quotey
Emperor
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#yuck- why did you settle on the marble?
I managed to discover Europe and vassalise Aztecs after about 4 tries (but I got CoL so had to use 2GSs to bulb Optics...).
How the christ are you solid? I think I'll post some intermediate saves- my Economy/Expansion is in the dumps after founding Chicago, New Orleans and Fort Albany. Researching at 20%...
Does the GLH help THAT MUCH?
Next time I go through it I think I'll avoid GLH and build a Rax and Lib instead.
And do you think vassalising Inca would be a good idea as springboard to domination? After Aztecs though- settling north of Tucume to negate "Too far away"?
I managed to discover Europe and vassalise Aztecs after about 4 tries (but I got CoL so had to use 2GSs to bulb Optics...).
How the christ are you solid? I think I'll post some intermediate saves- my Economy/Expansion is in the dumps after founding Chicago, New Orleans and Fort Albany. Researching at 20%...
Does the GLH help THAT MUCH?
Next time I go through it I think I'll avoid GLH and build a Rax and Lib instead.
And do you think vassalising Inca would be a good idea as springboard to domination? After Aztecs though- settling north of Tucume to negate "Too far away"?
Jet
No, no, please. Please.
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I have a feeling that the GLH is helping quite a lot in my save.
Huayna seems to have some funny modifiers for vassalizing to the Maya. For example he'll say "we're doing fine on our own" even as a gunpowder conqueror stack is taking his capital, or "sorry, it's out of our hands" even if he's at peace and has been bribed into peace with the natives.
I settled on the Marble mainly to get a Levee later while still having Corn and Iron in the first ring. Sharing improved tiles with New Orleans also helped a little.
Huayna seems to have some funny modifiers for vassalizing to the Maya. For example he'll say "we're doing fine on our own" even as a gunpowder conqueror stack is taking his capital, or "sorry, it's out of our hands" even if he's at peace and has been bribed into peace with the natives.
I settled on the Marble mainly to get a Levee later while still having Corn and Iron in the first ring. Sharing improved tiles with New Orleans also helped a little.
Quotey
Emperor
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Jet/Archon/AP, would you be interested in joining a Mayan Challenge SG? I expect it would turn into domination. Lots of discussion required, of course, and I'll learn something about stability.
Roster-
Metal Alloy Man
Quotey
Jet?
Archotophoenix?
AnotherPacifist?
Something else- why even settle Chichen Itza. I found that not founding it until you get Chicago up means quicker research and I was still able to vassalise the Aztecs. Is there a high enough stability bonus for a city in your core area?
Roster-
Metal Alloy Man
Quotey
Jet?
Archotophoenix?
AnotherPacifist?
Something else- why even settle Chichen Itza. I found that not founding it until you get Chicago up means quicker research and I was still able to vassalise the Aztecs. Is there a high enough stability bonus for a city in your core area?
Jet
No, no, please. Please.
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I haven't tried skipping Chichen Itza, but it has high commerce and also high production with Slavery.
For my part I'll have to decline your Maya SG offer. I'm occupied with this solo game and other stuff (including another SG that I probably want to try to start.)
For my part I'll have to decline your Maya SG offer. I'm occupied with this solo game and other stuff (including another SG that I probably want to try to start.)
AnotherPacifist
Deity
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I'm so sick of the Mayans (after playing 3 games for domination, finally getting it) due to their stinking stability (pre-built in stability.py), lack of religion/happiness (i.e. you can't whip as often as you like even if you have the population due to unhappiness) and unique plague that I must decline. If paganism can be a religion I would gladly play it.
archontophoenix
Chieftain
Sounds as if the enthusiasm level might not be high at the moment, but if this game does happen, count me in. I'd love a chance to pick up some tips on how to beat this challenge.
archontophoenix
Chieftain
I've been reexamining my assumptions about how to start this challenge, in light of Jet's success at building the Great Lighthouse. I'd figured that the Maya weren't really set up to build early wonders (except the Temple of K, if you're going for the UHV), but after several tries I've managed to:
. Build the Great Lighthouse (I had only one start where it was already built; I think you can usually do this)
. Build the Moai Statues (also usually not built, and you can usually beat the AI to it)
. Build the Pyramids (you can only do this with a lucky start; already built on the majority of starts I tried)
. Build both the Great Lighthouse and the Moai Statues (although I think this takes too much time and would be incompatible with completing this challenge; in the attempt, I didn't reach Europe until 1400)
So, are the Moai Statues better for the Maya in the long term than the GLH? They can turn Oaxaca from a fairly good production center to a great one, comparable to the cities of North America. The GLH, on the other hand, provides a substantial commerce bonus -- but only to coastal cities. Assuming the Mayans are going to build a bunch of inland North American cities, the benefit is smaller than it would be for a really coastal civ.
Also:
. Moai Statues are faster to build
. GLH provides more culture and GP points (6/2 per turn, vs 4/1)
. Both provide same stability bonus, as far as I can tell
. Build the Great Lighthouse (I had only one start where it was already built; I think you can usually do this)
. Build the Moai Statues (also usually not built, and you can usually beat the AI to it)
. Build the Pyramids (you can only do this with a lucky start; already built on the majority of starts I tried)
. Build both the Great Lighthouse and the Moai Statues (although I think this takes too much time and would be incompatible with completing this challenge; in the attempt, I didn't reach Europe until 1400)
So, are the Moai Statues better for the Maya in the long term than the GLH? They can turn Oaxaca from a fairly good production center to a great one, comparable to the cities of North America. The GLH, on the other hand, provides a substantial commerce bonus -- but only to coastal cities. Assuming the Mayans are going to build a bunch of inland North American cities, the benefit is smaller than it would be for a really coastal civ.
Also:
. Moai Statues are faster to build
. GLH provides more culture and GP points (6/2 per turn, vs 4/1)
. Both provide same stability bonus, as far as I can tell
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