Meditation on Civ2 paradoxes...

[GenghisK]

Well, there was a long time I hadn't played Civ II. 1 month playing Diablo. Yesterday I launched another game on easy Warlord mode (so long time I didn't play so I needed a sweet start).
As I could expect, I was stuck until 4 am. But while playing this game, I finally found what was "wrong" with Civ 2. I always thought there was something "strange" with all the Civ-like games but I couldn't know what. It was only a feeling. Yesterday I thought I found it. The tech tree/system.

Explanation:
In real life you don't really discover something you research. Ok, it's quite hard to explain that so I'll take an exemple. Discovering the wheel. It's nonsense to "research the Wheel civ advance" because that would mean you already know the concept of the wheel. Somewhere it's paradoxical. Prehistoric people discovered it because they were looking for "something" useful to go faster.
Same thing for everything else. Pottery? They didn't know that. They were trying to make someting like plates so they could use them to eat.
Now, see what I mean? I admit it's a bit abstract but well, I think next generation of civ like should change this concept. There must be a way to focus on a "global" main goal, and then secondary breakthroughs would be made while advancing toward this goal. Of course, there's something like that in Civ2 (different domains => weaponry, city improvement, etc..) but I think it's too basic.

Mmmm, I'm not sure everybody has understood. I'll find another way to state that more precisely. Later.

I think I will post something on the Civ3 suggestions and ideas too.

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[This message has been edited by GenghisK (edited June 29, 2001).]

 

[KnightOfNi]

I always thought this was illogical too but as the concept of the game is based on a historical concept, that's why the discoveries are predefined. It would be nice to make science research more random but it would make the game unplayable.
I would like to see the following research process :
set your beakers individually on different research concepts (mechanics,medical,trade,...) and findings would appear randomly based on what concepts you are researching.

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Ni !

 

[GenghisK]

You got my point. Finally people understood me

That was approximately what I planned to post. There should be some "areas" of reasearch rather than a specific tech.

And no I don't think it'b be unplayable. On the contrary, I think this makes the game more challenging. I think you can't deny that most of people, after having player 666 times the games, always have the same tech path. Pottery, then bronze working, etc.. (ok not in this order but it's an exemple). Now imaging it (I mean the occurance of a tech)is quite random, it obliges people to adapt to each game, hence improving even more the fun. And I'll even go farther. What about techs that are "semi-random" (I mean for instance, you can access adv. flight after having discovered flight but you don't have access to radio. Another civ has radio but cannot discover yet the adv fl. =>exchange = more diplomatic part = good!). See what I mean?
Hey I'll post that in Civ3.

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[starlifter]

While the ancient advances often consist of knowledge that is of incremental or unknown origin, many more recent advances were indeed of mankind reseraching a specific advance. For instance, Flight, Steam Engine, the Laser, Stealth, Nuclear Fission and even the ongoing Cure For Cancer were/are specifically researched, even when the method was not known but the desired outcome was.

It will interesting to see how Civ III handles research and advancement, however.

 

[Kev]

I seem to remember reading that in Sid's Alpha Centauri there is a "random" tech tree (don't know if it's an option or what - I've never played).

Seems like an interesting thought to me, you would just get the message every so often that your next tecnology was discovered.

However, I agree with starlifter in that many advances were indeed sought after with something very specific in mind. The Wright brothers were certainly going after flight when they were building stuff. Indeed, an argument can be made that most techs had a "necessity being the mother of invention" aspect to it. Yet, in the game it's easier to say "I want to research writing" rather than "I want to research a method of communication that deals with transcribing thoughts and sounds onto some medium so as to provide the means to reach many, many people and provide for the lasting nature of these communications".

I agree that it will be interesting to see if the CivIII planners tweak the tech tree at all. However, I don't think I will be put off at all if they just leave it.

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Diplomacy - the art of
saying "Good Doggie"
until you can find a rock

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Elaborating on the above, in SMAC, there is an option to set research to random at the beginning of the game. Basically it means you can't pre-defined what you will be researching next if I remember correctly (hadn't played it for years).

 

[hannibol43]

I think Ghengis makes a good point but I think it is probably an argument for a different type of game. One that is not based on history, but some alternate or future context. Where when you research you reasearch a better weapon, or a better means of transportation etc. But you advents could be seperate from other players and when you fight you might have an energy sword while they have a bladed boomerang or something along that kind of line (JUST AN EXAMPLE).

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"Hannibol Ad Portas!"

 

[dtziouf]

>While the ancient advances often consist of >knowledge that is of incremental or unknown >origin, many more recent advances were >indeed of mankind reseraching a specific >advance. For instance, Flight, Steam >Engine, the Laser, Stealth, Nuclear Fission >and even the ongoing Cure For Cancer >were/are specifically researched, even when >the method was not known but the desired >outcome was.

Maybe now we know what we are searchibg for,but the advances we make still are random. For example maybe scientists are looking for a cure for Cancer and they fing a cure for AIDS.



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Dimitris

 

[sekong]

You should try SMAC, dear Khan. It's an idea already be implmented there. You have the choice to direct yr research or not. But seems a lot of players don't really like it.

After all, it's just matter of naming. You should look through the illusion of NAMES by your meditation, dear Khan.

Originally posted by GenghisK:
You got my point. Finally people understood me <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/smile.gif" border=0>
That was approximately what I planned to post. There should be some "areas" of reasearch rather than a specific tech.

And no I don't think it'b be unplayable. On the contrary, I think this makes the game more challenging. I think you can't deny that most of people, after having player 666 times the games, always have the same tech path. Pottery, then bronze working, etc.. (ok not in this order but it's an exemple). Now imaging it (I mean the occurance of a tech)is quite random, it obliges people to adapt to each game, hence improving even more the fun. And I'll even go farther. What about techs that are "semi-random" (I mean for instance, you can access adv. flight after having discovered flight but you don't have access to radio. Another civ has radio but cannot discover yet the adv fl. =>exchange = more diplomatic part = good!). See what I mean?
Hey I'll post that in Civ3.

 

[sekong]

Originally posted by Kev:
I seem to remember reading that in Sid's Alpha Centauri there is a "random" tech tree (don't know if it's an option or what - I've never played).

Yeah, that's the SMAC I talked about. SM= great sid Meyer
AC= the new planet

 

[kundor]

No one's really explained how this feature works in SMAC...
It's like this: If you don't turn on guided research, you are given a choice of four options: Build, Discover, Conquer and Explore. You can choose one or more of these options. If you choose build, advances helping infrastructure/improvements are made; if you choose discover, 'pure' science that opens more possibilities; if you choose conquer, weapon and defense unit advances are made, and explore makes speed unit advances, ship and air units, etc. Your science accumulates up and when enough is gathered, an available advance in one of the fields you chose is made. You can change the choices at any time or turn on guided research like in Civ2.

 

[jfizz]

It's my first post, hello all!

I don't really mind the specific research goal, What I find odd, is the regularity at wich the discoveries are made. In real reasearch, you can't follow deadlines. It's weird to be able, not only to say "Find a cure for Cancer", but to be able to calculate: "they'll be done in X years."

What I'd like to see, in the matters of research and tech tree, is some uncertainties. You wouldn't know when you would finish researching something, but the higher your science rating, the higher your chance after each turn of discovering it.

This would put more randomness in the game, and you couldn't have foll-proofed strategies based on science.

 

[Alan_Nicoll]

Having research unpredictable would add considerably to my interest in the game, at least for a while. It occurs to me this could be simulated by editing the proper text file and changing all the tech names to "xxx" or something like that. You'd have to be willing to not look at the Help, also, which would limit the usefulness (if any) of this to SP games.

Simpler would be just to choose randomly from the list or even just select the first one on the list each time.

 

[GenghisK]

Mmm, sorry, since I've never played SMAC (well to be honest I tried it twice, each try was 5 minutes) so I didn't know they already had that kind of thing.

Anyway, as I expected, there are quite as many people who disagree with me as people who agree.

I know, I told you I was mad...

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[starlifter]

by jfizz:

What I'd like to see, in the matters of research and tech tree, is some uncertainties. You wouldn't know when you would finish researching something, but the higher your science rating, the higher your chance after each turn of discovering it.

Easy to achieve your desire in Civ II... just don't look at the Trade Advisor and Science Advisor. Your research will suprise you in a fairly random fashion. With each passing turn, you will have increasing odds you'll make a discovery!

If you must really have uncertainty, click and hold the science slider, put one hand over the sliders on the screen, and thrash your mouse wildly back and forth (close your eyes if you wish)... release the mouse button at some point (eyes still closed)... then resume the game. Use tape to cover any on-screen clues about the actual rate of reserch/taxes/lux. The results may be uncertain...

 

[Vrylakas]

GK,

Good point. I'd wondered that myself. It's a-historical and does make things a bit too predictable.

There are some realities about a game that may force it to work through a technology tree, but in reality things aren't quite so plain. The wheel, as some historians have speculated, probably was first invented by potters who used it in their craft before its use in mobility was realized.

But in reality there isn't a set standard of technology - a "technology tree" - that all Civs grope through, discovering innovations as they go along, competing with each other. For instance, ancient Egyptian and Greek mathematic systems were completely different, which influenced their engineering, architecture, etc. There isn't just one way to do most things.

I don't know that a game can address something like this, but having a Civ presented with problems in its development that it must solve - each solution leading down another complex technology path with advantages and disadvantages, and each subject to the raw materials & resources available - this would be more authentic.



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"...über den Bergen sind auch Leute..."

 

[duke o' york]

Re: jfizz's comments above.
The Cure for Cancer is a wonder, though, not an advance. Although we have yet to implement it in a global sense, humanity understands a lot about Genetic Engineering (CfC's tech) and the amount of research presently being conducted does not make a cure for cancer entirely unlikely.
I think that the Cure for Cancer takes several thousand shields (4 or 5,000?) and can therefore be considered an ongoing process in research not attached to the tech tree. The arrival of a caravan or freight to help build the wonder could be like a new breakthrough in the research, bringing the scientists even closer to finding the cure. I think that this kind of applied technology works better as a wonder than somewhere on the tech tree.

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in vino veritas

 

[starlifter]

...
I think that the Cure for Cancer takes several thousand shields (4 or 5,000?)
...

BTW, Genetic Engineering took me about 2,200 beakers to reseach in GOTM 4 last week. The CfC wonder always costs 600 shields to build for the Human

.

 

[GenghisK]

Mmmm, yesterday, I've found something else that I thought it was interesting to submit too. Concerning building, it's all right. It takes years and years to research or build wonder, I can understand, but sometimes I find funny that it takes years and years to cross an ocean

A boat is limited to 8 moves max (with fusion power) and it's not sufficient to cross a large ocean within one turn. Perhaps somebody already told that in a previous thread but I didn't see it.
That's another "unrealistic" thing to be improved too. How? Uh I don't know. Let's find a solution for Civ 4

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[starlifter]

A boat is limited to 8 moves max (with fusion power) and it's not sufficient to cross a large ocean within one turn. Perhaps somebody already told that in a previous thread but I didn't see it.

That's another "unrealistic" thing to be improved too. How? Uh I don't know. Let's find a solution for Civ 4

The time relationship/unit relationship in all strategy games is not a direct representation of reality. Sid and Brian, in particular, have discussed their own influences in the game's design.

Like Civ II Gold, games such as Railroad Tycoon II Gold have "time paradoxes" too (RRT2G trains do not really take 2 years to go from coast to coast, LOL). As long as the game is a strategy-based game, it cannot be resolved.

Many other paradoxes exist, like Cruise Missiles (CMs) and Nukes. Maybe most people don't know it, but we don't deploy CMs and nukes on recon missions. They also don't fly themselves from one base to another. When we launch them in real life, they don't come wandering back if they fail to find a target, LOL!

Properly used, there is no place on the planet that is safe from either weapon. And guaranteed, they will go more than twice the speed of a transport or cruiser, LOL <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/wink.gif" border=0>


Bottom line: as I'm sure everyone knows, the units represent abstractions, not faithful depictions of reality. But it is still great fun nevertheless!

[This message has been edited by starlifter (edited July 04, 2001).]