Mercantilism Overpowered

[TheWilltoAct]

Yeah messix Idk know what the fromp you are doing cuz that is far from standard AI behavior. I have never experienced all the AI civs possessing Merc once corporations come up... I actually don't think I believe you. If you want to live in a sheltered world where you are blind to all civics but Merc that is your choice, but you would do well to wrap your head around some of the suggestions posted on this thread.

 

[onedreamer]

It's not the specialist beneift that I think is broken. This is a nice effect that adds to the depth of the civic options.

What I think is broken is that it also disables the entire mechanic of corporations which were added in BTS. What use is it to add exciting new features to the late game if the most common early game civic just turns off the new feature? Why were corporation added at all, they are pretty much worthless when Mercantilism is in play?

because this is a strategic game, and while it is true that Mercantilism is good up until Middle Age / Renaissance, it is very bad from the Industrial Age and on, where you can grab a great deal of commerce from international trade routes. Hence choosing to close your borders economically is a damage for you but it is balanced by the fact that you can spread YOUR corporation into foreign territory while the contrary is not true. The +1 free specialist alone does not balance the loss of commerce at all. Corporations will still be very worth it, for that civ that has it and runs Mercantilism, it is not correct to say that it makes them worthless ? If you have to say this then you would have to speak of State Property and not Mercantilism.

 

[hoopsnerd]

@Mesix

Let me just get this straight. You've never found a use for the United Nations OR Corporations, State Property is inferior to Mercantilism because you don't get extra specialists, and you are having a problem spreading corporations because of civics?

My advice to you would be to read the strategy boards -- you obviously have a lot of learning to do about civ, and thats a great place to get strategy ideas and tips.

I'm going to guess that your playing on Settler or Cheiftan or something so that by the time you found your first corporations the AI has discovered Banking but not Economics so the only Economic civic they can possibly run besides Decentralization is Mercantilism. Otherwise the AI barely uses merc at all.

 

[Empiremaker]

If you are spiritual, and at parity, Merc can be useful because most AI will run it, eliminating your trade routes. Beyond that Merc is not useful.

And make sure you're playing with Solver's patch because it actually makes corps useful.

 

[Indiansmoke]

Basic Principles

FM is better
1. If Domestic Trade routes are worth more (your cities are large, you have overseas colonies, Harbors/Custom Houses are present, etc.)
2. If you have a large number of Trading partners (perticularly overseas ones)
3. If you have domestic corporations
4. If you have foreign corporations you want the effect of

Mercantilism is better if
0. You are running Representation (almost a requirement)
1. You have representation (obviously)
2. You are Isolated (all your Open border Friends are in Mercantilism)
3. You want to gain a competitive advantage, and are bigger than most of your trading Partners
4. You have Smaller cities
5. There are foreign cops that don't provide a good enough benefit, or at least they are funding a major rival


State Property is best when
0. you are running Caste System
1. You have very few Courthouses or Commerce/Science/Gold Multipliers in your cities
2. There are few useful corporations available... and a number of useless ones
3. You are in a hammer heavy strategy (typically military)
4. You have a very large empire

Environmentalism is best when
1. You are low on health (either from industrialization or running a Specialist Economy.. its worth ~2.7 specialists)
2. The UN forces you to

This more or less sums it for me....just a few observations:

You do not nesesarily need representation to run Merchandilism although it is obviously better if you have it. There is a time when your trading partners switch so you need to switch as well.

If you run domestic corporations, that you don't want to spread abroad I cannot see why Free market is good? Even if you want to spread them you can do it with merchandilism.

The synergy from Caste system & State property is not very important. I mean will you run caste system just for the extra hammer from workshop? Or will you run State property for the workshop + 1 food? Both of these are secondary benefits of the civics.

 

[MrCynical]

If you run domestic corporations, that you don't want to spread abroad I cannot see why Free market is good? Even if you want to spread them you can do it with merchandilism.

Domestic corporation maintenance is 25% lower under free market than mercantilism - that's a big saving, and you've got free market's extra trade route, which is often worth more than a specialist in the late game anyway.

 

[hoopsnerd]

Domestic corporation maintenance is 25% lower under free market than mercantilism - that's a big saving, and you've got free market's extra trade route, which is often worth more than a specialist in the late game anyway.

Totally. Just the 1 trade route alone is worth more than 1 specialist can provide -- not to mention the huge increase in each trade route's value. Mercantilism is basicly worthless the minute you discover Economics. Gift Economics to your AI friends if they are in Merc and they will switch to FM if that's a problem for you.

 

[onedreamer]

The game says "-25% Maintenance Costs from Corporations". Why do you say it is only for domestic corporations ? Any proofs ?

 

[Indiansmoke]

Totally. Just the 1 trade route alone is worth more than 1 specialist can provide -- not to mention the huge increase in each trade route's value. Mercantilism is basicly worthless the minute you discover Economics. Gift Economics to your AI friends if they are in Merc and they will switch to FM if that's a problem for you.

Don't forget production, especially in not so developed cities or one's with low production 2 hammers + 1 gold (if you have Angor Watt) can make a difference.

 

[hoopsnerd]

Don't forget production, especially in not so developed cities or one's with low production 2 hammers + 1 gold (if you have Angor Watt) can make a difference.

2 hammers + 1 gold is never going to be worth as much commerce as an extra trade route + huge boosts to existing trade routes. See the calculations above. Mercantilism sucks and its only good until you get Free Market... making it not even worthwhile to switch to unless you're spiritual. Do you see any experienced players on the boards saying that Mercantilism is good in any way except very specific circumstances? No. And there is a reason for that.

 

[mrt144]

The game says "-25% Maintenance Costs from Corporations". Why do you say it is only for domestic corporations ? Any proofs ?

I think that he means it is -25% maintenance costs for any corporations operating within your own borders, either owned by yourself or otherwise.

 

[thomson_2001]

yes you can gain a lot of gold from free market...but you also give away some to your rivals right. but im interested in the caste + communism for workshops...sounds nice and havent tried before. i still love the free specialist for running like mad towards great people. can ever gettired of bulbing techs or golden ages

 

[MrCynical]

The game says "-25% Maintenance Costs from Corporations". Why do you say it is only for domestic corporations ? Any proofs ?

By domestic corporations I meant all corporation branches in your territory (regardless of who owns the HQ). It's rare to see much AI use of corporations though, so it often amounts to the same thing.

 

[TheWilltoAct]

The synergy from Caste system & State property is not very important. I mean will you run caste system just for the extra hammer from workshop? Or will you run State property for the workshop + 1 food? Both of these are secondary benefits of the civics.

Those secondary benefits when combined could possibly make a difference between one even building workshops in the first place or just mining or somethin... just a thought. Do not underestimate the secondary benefits is all I'm saying.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

^ when combined a Workshop adds 4 hammers to a tile, Nothing gets better production, except a resource tile. If you are fine with your crrent level of tech, and just want to run over the enemy, Workshop+Case+SP everywhere, and pump out troops for multiple SODs

 

[BYC]

I run much more Caste System than before because of the +1 hammer bonus. It IS a big deal. Being able to setup plains to something useful is huge, as opposed to before, where players pretty much always hated them. I also research/trade/steal Metal Casting earlier so I can stablize my production.

 

[onedreamer]

Well, the maintenance cost of a corporate office is added to the city maintenance cost, so there is no point in differentiating domestic or foreign corporation maintenance costs, except that it maybe depends on the distance from the HQ.

 

[Roxlimn]

I'm wondering if the comments on this thread take offensive use of corporations into account? I'm currently trying to economically sabotage a couple of civs on another continent by aggressively spreading Creative Construction amongst them. I don't care about the culture, and the production boost is fairly limited compared to my domestic Mining Inc.

If the AI actually used Corporations in this way, I would actually consider using Mercantilism for defense, but I hardly ever get takeovers from the AI.

 

[DilithiumDad]

Financial civs get no additional benefits from trade routes - the +1 commerce does not apply here. Neither does it making the remotest difference to civic choice whether you're trading with an AI or not.



I think you may be a little confused about how trade routes work - the amount they generate (at either end) has nothing to do with either city's ordinary commerce output. It's down to city size, distance, and whether they're foreign or not. A specialist based city, inevitably larger than a cottage spammed one, will actually generate commerce more from trade routes.

Yes, I thought it worked the same as in Alpha Centauri, where trade route values were a function of the overall commerce in a city. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Mesix]

@Mesix

Let me just get this straight. You've never found a use for the United Nations OR Corporations, State Property is inferior to Mercantilism because you don't get extra specialists, and you are having a problem spreading corporations because of civics?

My advice to you would be to read the strategy boards -- you obviously have a lot of learning to do about civ, and thats a great place to get strategy ideas and tips.

I'm going to guess that your playing on Settler or Cheiftan or something so that by the time you found your first corporations the AI has discovered Banking but not Economics so the only Economic civic they can possibly run besides Decentralization is Mercantilism. Otherwise the AI barely uses merc at all.

Actually, you're mistaken. I have been playing CIV IV since it was first released and I am very familiar with the mechanics of the game. I am new to BtS, having only been playing the new expansion for a couple of weeks now. It has just been frustrating for me to try out some of the new features (like corporations) in BtS when other features (like mercantilism) completely nulify their usefulness.

When I play. the AI is typically up to date with research (sometimes ahead of me), and when I get my first corporations, they have other civics. I have actually spread my corporations to their cities, only to discover that they are not there a few turns later. When I check my foreign advisor, all of the AI civs are running mercantilism (which had not been the case a few turns earlier).

The reason that I have never liked the UN is because the resolutions don't seem to add much to the game. I will admit that I have not given the UN a chance since Vanila Civ IV and there may have been improvements in the two expansions that make it better (like the previous post mentiond forcing environmentalism). I am going to play around with the UN a little bit in my next few games.

I do play BtS at a slightly easier difficulty than I did Vanila and Warlords. I think this is because of new features that I am learning to play with. The AI improvements also make the computer civs more competative in my experience.