Rambuchan
The Funky President
I hardly ever use this Civic. But I'm open to being talked into it.
Why do you use it and in what situations?
Why do you use it and in what situations?
Mercantilism - what is it good for?
- Thread starter Rambuchan
- Start date
acidsatyr
be water my friend...
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2006
- Messages
- 1,166
It's a very situational civic one of the most powerful ones in fact.
Besides obvious tendency to switch to mercantilism when evryone else is running it (so no open borders, etc), theres a more strategic reason(s) why you should run it. For example, it cuts your foreignt trade troutes, thus directly lowering your research, but it also cuts AI's trade routes toward you - however, you also get one extra specialist in each of your cities (6 raw beaker scientist under represeantion), direclty boosting your research. It is perfectly well suited for large empires because in large empires the bonus from specialists is larger than your bonus from trade routes (plus you cut of Ais trade routes).
All in all keep in mind that AIs research rate is affected by you running mercantilism. I hope this gives you some basic idea
edit: sp errors, but i dont really care
Besides obvious tendency to switch to mercantilism when evryone else is running it (so no open borders, etc), theres a more strategic reason(s) why you should run it. For example, it cuts your foreignt trade troutes, thus directly lowering your research, but it also cuts AI's trade routes toward you - however, you also get one extra specialist in each of your cities (6 raw beaker scientist under represeantion), direclty boosting your research. It is perfectly well suited for large empires because in large empires the bonus from specialists is larger than your bonus from trade routes (plus you cut of Ais trade routes).
All in all keep in mind that AIs research rate is affected by you running mercantilism. I hope this gives you some basic idea
edit: sp errors, but i dont really care
I don't have much to add to Acidsatyr, so I'll give an example. You are playing with 6 other opponents. 4 are using Mercantalism. You have 10 cities, and are running Representation. So, each specialist will now have 3 extra beakers.
So, say all 10 are scientists. Then, you are getting 60 beakers from the switch to Mercantalism, not even including the impact of multipliers. Compare that to your lost trade revenue, and add in opponents' lost trade revenue. If you are spiritual its probably an easy change, and often even if you aren't.
And the specialist can be better that that. Your cities with forges may be able to add an engineer (if they don't have one already) which may have even more benefit in your production city. Border citites can add an artist, etc.
Breunor
So, say all 10 are scientists. Then, you are getting 60 beakers from the switch to Mercantalism, not even including the impact of multipliers. Compare that to your lost trade revenue, and add in opponents' lost trade revenue. If you are spiritual its probably an easy change, and often even if you aren't.
And the specialist can be better that that. Your cities with forges may be able to add an engineer (if they don't have one already) which may have even more benefit in your production city. Border citites can add an artist, etc.
Breunor
magicalsushi
Prince
It's been said here before that running Mercantilism does *not* stop foreign nations from having trade routes with your cities, it just means your cities cannot have trade routes with theirs. Whether this is really true, I do not know. It goes against common sense, and is really the exact *opposite* of Mercantilism, but some people say that the game does behave in this bizarre, counter-intuitive way. It shouldn't be difficult to test, but I'm afraid I'm unlikely to have time for that myself in the near future.
magicalsushi
Prince
Good. Makes more sense that way. But I do recall a discussion about it a month or two ago. Can't remember what the verdict was though. I hope you're right.
civvver
Deity
- Joined
- Apr 24, 2007
- Messages
- 5,855
If you play on easier difficulties like I do (usual warlord) then often you'll find foreign trade routes generate little income. Many times trade routes with my own cities generate more so mercantilism gives me more benefit than free market. I usually check my income tab then save the game and switch and see which generates more income.
Lockesdonkey
Liberal Jihadist
I find that if you've been diligent enough, you can get Economics (and thus Free Market) before everyone else goes Mercantilist. Then you just sell Economics...it's annoying to sell an important tech like that, realistically, it's the best thing you can do, and it'll more than make up for any losses you might have incurred over the long term in trade.
KMadCandy
giggling permanoob
he's right (not the first time
). i've done WB "put a spy in the AI cities" tests when i got banking, before i had communism, to watch the difference ... the impact on them can be huge. often my best cities are bigger and better than their cities. makes sense, they're forced to use automated worker logic and i'm not, etc. i've seen cases where before i go to merc, their top two trade routes in coastal cities are with two of my cities. when i go to merc and they can only trade with each other, i've seen cases where each ends up being only half or less what the top route was before the change. so that one city had 2 trade routes that were 13+12 commerce that are now 6+6, net loss 13 in a single city! those numbers might not be from that early "just got banking" stage of the game, i don't remember.
meanwhile before merc, while they were getting those huge trade routes with my cities, the trade routes i've been getting with their small cities aren't as big and haven't benefited me as much. so yes, my commerce from trade goes down if i cut off trade possibilities with them. but i've watched it happen and theirs goes down far more.
situational, yes. but don't automatically assume that just because you will see a decrease in your trade route income, that will result in your tech pace slowing down relative to the AI. after adding in my merc specialists, and subtracting how much they slow down due to being cut off from my trade routes (much more commerce lost on their side than mine), it often ends up putting my tech pace ahead of theirs. then time goes on and i decide what civics will benefit me best when i hit the next stage, blah blah.
yesterday i traded tokugawa economics for something, can't remember what. i figured "oh he's safe, he won't trade it around, and he won't go to free market so i won't lose my +wise civics, he'll stay at friendly." he changed to free market. tokugawa!!!!! random personalities isn't on. i think the world has gone crazy
And don't forget grabbing the statue of liberty that adds an extra specialist for free in each city. Add that to Representation + Cast System and any specialist boosting wonders (Angkor Wat, Sistine Chapel etc.) Mix then with mercantilism and presto, economic powerhouse!
Rambuchan
The Funky President
These are great answers guys. Many thanks.
Most people think "No foreign trade routes; that will hurt my economy."
What they don't think is "No foreign trade routes; that will hurt the AI's economy."
At some point the number of cities you have reaches a point where it is more advantageous for you to take the specialists and force the AI to trade amongst itself. If you're running Representation then this can be an even bigger swing. That's how you have to look at it. You might slow your research a bit, but if you're hurting the AIs even more then you're doing just fine (and you get the extra hammers, culture, gold or GPP from the specialists).
What they don't think is "No foreign trade routes; that will hurt the AI's economy."
At some point the number of cities you have reaches a point where it is more advantageous for you to take the specialists and force the AI to trade amongst itself. If you're running Representation then this can be an even bigger swing. That's how you have to look at it. You might slow your research a bit, but if you're hurting the AIs even more then you're doing just fine (and you get the extra hammers, culture, gold or GPP from the specialists).
Lockesdonkey
Liberal Jihadist
You have to be pretty big for this to be the case, and at that point, you really ought to be running State Property. The only excuse you have for not running SP (besides the UN) is if you don't have Communism yet, and if you haven't beelined for Communism and have that many cities I don't know what kind of idiot you are. Even a large civ should not spend a very long time under Mercantilism.
KMadCandy
giggling permanoob
it's not necessarily about "i have more cities than the AI so if they can't trade with me their economy will be hurt". it can be about "i have bigger and better cities with more commerce than the AI". how often do you have cities that are better than theirs? if you are not at war, are not whipping your citizens, and are not drafting them, then your cities should be better, and probably bigger, than theirs for many reasons. you're not locked into automated worker logic and they are, for one thing. quite frankly if you cannot manage commerce in your cities better than the AI can, well ... you have a lot of learning to do. i'll keep it at that, i'm sure you'd phrase it differently.
i have watched the numbers in their cities using spies because i was curious about the impact on the big picture. i didn't want to assume things, i wanted to know and understand. i have seen the changes in their trade routes before and after i change to mercantilism. i have watched the number of turns it will take them to reach their next tech increase significantly. i have watched the gold per turn they make go from positive to negative simply because i click that button. in some situations, shutting off their juicy trade routes to your cities hurts their economy big-time.
sometimes the relative speed in tech rate you gain, due to the slow down it gives them, is better than the change to free market would give you when you factor in the help you're giving them by access to your trade routes. it is situational. it can depend on the map, how many civs are still alive, how many of them have nice trade route options that will fill in the spots your cities were using, etc. but there are times that it's a great option. if i take 4 turns to research X and they take 5-7 with decentralization, and i take 5 but they take 6-9 once i take merc, which one is a better deal for me? isn't it the second one? it's not a race against time on the calendar until you're looking at 2050. it's a race in relative positions in power/tech/economy/land/blah blah, unless you're in a competition like GOTM/HoF/whatever. the stuff i'm describing can be the case far earlier than you're thinking about heading to state property. if you're beelining to communism the instant you learn banking, your approach is one i've never seen before.
i do freely admit that if you follow me around in day-to-day life long enough, you will, given time, certainly find evidence somewhere that i am some kind of idiot *giggle*. "what kind of idiot" i'm not sure. it tends to depend on the day of the week and how much sleep i've had. but on this particular issue i have watched the numbers as they happen, and the fact is that you are not seeing part of the situation. perhaps you're choosing to ignore that part of it because you'd rather insult people, i don't know.
flamingzaroc121
Emperor
when i am going for a cultural victory, i usually run,
Representation for the beakers from the specialists
Free speech, +100% culture duh
Caste system. free artist specialist, OR Emanipation if everyone else is running it
Mecantilism, 1 free artist specialist
and Pacifism for the extra Great Artists produced
Representation for the beakers from the specialists
Free speech, +100% culture duh
Caste system. free artist specialist, OR Emanipation if everyone else is running it
Mecantilism, 1 free artist specialist
and Pacifism for the extra Great Artists produced
Greeneyedzombie
King
Doesn't the UN resolution "open borders" by pass the closed borders from mercantalism?
Morgrad
Attack Rodent
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2007
- Messages
- 367
Rubbish!
State Property is a situational civic, just like anything else. Mercantilism with Represention is a science powerhouse - Mercantilism without Representation is nearly running a hybrid economy without giving up any worked tiles.
Mercantilism + Statue of Liberty + Representation = 12 extra beakers per turn per city before you add in any multipliers. That's the science equivalent of every city working two towns in addition to everything else it does - at 100% science slider. It also adds six more GPPs per turn for all cities - but notably for your GP farm.
Is it the end-all be-all civic? Of course not. But it's a very useful civic given the right circumstances, and unless State Property is saving you 6 gold per turn per city, the net economical impact on your science is better running a free scientist in every city.
Your statement certainly has grains of truth, but as with most other super-generalized statements about Civ IV, there are some gaping holes in that logic. Is State Property often a better choice? Sure. But Mercantilism is also often the best choice for a given time.
