[Merge] About Indonesian civ

[antaratma]

Ahh, hello guys..

first of all, I would like to sorry if my english is bad (well, still 14 years old)

please note that I'm still newbie in this forum and even the game itself (sigh~ never knew there was a great game like this) my history knowledge is not so great so yeah~ CMIIW

okay, the thing that I want to discuss here is about Indonesian Civ and it's leader, Lord Gajah Mada

at first, I think he is okay, I don't care if he is fat or whatever, but since everyday I do some research about Majapahit/Eastern Java history (well, youngster nowadays is like nobody cares about this), I find that his appearance is quite odd, here is the list that coming up in my mind


1. Gajah Mada's fat appearance

Okay, like what I said, I got no problem with this, but FYI, Gajah Mada's chubby terracotta that you might find in wikipedia or another sources is completely doubtable (i dunno if this word is right )

This terracotta that 'said' to be Gajah Mada's face is stated by Muhammad Yamin, Indonesian historian. He is said that he found a terracotta face in Candi (unique building, yes) and then he declares that face was Gajah Mada's face.

But meanwhile (i forgot the source T.T) some scholar said that fat people's terracotta and pig is used for 'celengan' or piggy bank

And he declares the infamous Palapa Oath, which nowadays in Indonesia, eating food without spices is just feel strange (especially if you eating rice), and he helps the Jayanagara, second ruler of Majapahit, to escape from Ra Kuti's rebellion and take back the palace from him. He should be muscular or something

Oh, and Gajah Mada if translated is literally "Elephant general" doesn't mean he is a powerfull (literally) as elephant, it's a simbol of honorary title too (Ganesha is a elephant headed God), another people who got this title is Kebo Iwa, the greatest general in Bali when Majapahit try invading it. Gajah Mada cheated by throwing sand at him in duel and then stab him (well, in folkfore, the fight with supernatural power which is hard to believe in this modern days)

2. Keris/Kris that he holds

Maybe Firaxis got inspiration for the keris by Borobudur's relief that shown people holding keris

well, in Majapahit's era, Keris is already shaped beautifully and requires high smithing skills that makes the blacksmith (i'm not sure if 'blacksmith' word is right) gains honorary title 'Mpu', great writers also gain this title.

But Gajah Mada's keris is just.. not shaped properly, bad looking and has no mystical charisma (Keris is believed to have a magical powers that can brings luck or badluck)

here is keris that stated to be Majapahit's ancient keris,
Keris Nagasasra Sabuk Inten (it's the name of the shape, so it's not a specific individual keris)

Isn't she beautiful ? and expensive too

Indonesian unique units, NO unique name?

Kris Swordman, inspired from Balinese Warrior (which is Majapahit's people place to live when it's empire destroyed and remain Hindu's holder)

I quite disagree, even as a newbie, I know that another civ has unique units name (Musketeer, Landsknecth, Samurai, etc)
But, Kris Swordman ? such a plain name, nothing unique except giant kris that they hold and that is not common to brings a giant kris in the battlefield since Keris is a heirloom, used for final weapon if their spears and swords lost

I would recommend Bhayangkara, Majapahit's elite royal guardian, but not sure what to replace, since they covers pikeman, archer, and so on.

But also, Majapahit already using gunpowders called "Cetbang", why don't make a naval UU then ?

aah, I guess that's all, I just wanted to ask your opinion about this, I know some of forumers here seems a bit interested in Indonesian civ when I'm still a silent reader. But this thing keeps bother me especially the number 2 (no. 1 is actually not a big problem)

Well, thanks for reading then

 

[Arachnofiend]

I really wish Indonesia's problems were only aesthetic.

I don't really mind Gajah's body at all. He is muscular, but in a beefy way, like a sumo wrestler. Not all strongmen are lean and handsome, quite the opposite in fact. People who build muscle for wrestling are generally going to look flabbier than those who build for appearances.

 

[Zenstrive]

I think the reason they chose Kris Swordsman is because they want to introduce the random fun of Kris Swordsman "mystical" promotion into the game. Can't be done with Bhayangkara.

 

[ToodleElNoodos]

Agreed, unfortunately most of the audience gamers aren't quite familiar with S.East Asian cultures.

1) as said above, not a problem. He looks cool IMO.

2) good amount of folks don't really know what a kris is. In fantasy games, it's always portrayed as a sacrificial wavy knife (thanks Blizzard...) despite te fact that all over S.E.A wavy blades were the thing. I would fault them on not really catching that special detail, but I can excuse the ignorance.

3) Again, not many folks know (or care) about it. There's a lot of cool history that the game makers (being N.American) just don't have exposure to. The game audience doesn't know really, so Krisman is the best they can come up with. Kinda sad, but samurai have been overplayed so much people know offhand what it is. SEA not really, but hopefully as gamers get over European/E.Asian stuff, more authentic displays will appear. Kinda same reason India is kinda a crap and stereotypical representation.

 

[Matoro]

I love to see people who actually knows their history.

 

[Cicerosaurus]

Welcome to the boards, and well researched.

Don't get too hung up about the depiction of Gajah Mada. If you look at the likenesses of the other leaders, few are very flattering.

 

[Glieze]

You're 14 and yet still that interested in historical facts, be very proud of that.

Keep up the thirst for knowledge and you might very likely make a scholar or scientist yourself.

 

[antaratma]

Thanks for the answer, both of you

I don't care much about the appearance, but it's just funny that Muhammad Yamin stated that was Gajah Mada's face without refference and everyobody just believe it

and, Indonesian history is a bit difficult to learn in pre-dutch era, my interest is started from Dynasy Warriors series (lol), Who said that only China, Japan and Western countries have a great history ? and then this encourage me to learn about Majapahit

btw
how to delete a thread ? I accidentally post this with the title "~"

my mind was blank and accidentally press the "back" button, and then post another SAME thread with another title T.T

Moderator Action: Threads merged. Please do not post duplicate threads. Just report your initial thread and a moderator will make the necessary fixes. Welcome!

 

[antaratma]

@ Arachnofiend :

yes I know that, it's just funny that M. Yamin stated that was Mada's face without refference and then everybody (but not all) believe it..

@Zenstrive :

but the name is just.. unsatisfying lol, they should give a unique name for that

@ Toodle :

for my opinion

2. Kinda bit weird, they can make that golden rings, lion-carved belt and something hanging in the sarung (dunno the name -__-) but they cannot make a beautifully shaped weapon

3. I guess I have to agree with this

and how to delete a thread ? I post another same thread with "~" titled. That was accident because I forgot to edit the title and then back to previous page and then retype the title T.T

 

[bcaiko]

Indonesian unique units, NO unique name?

Kris Swordman, inspired from Balinese Warrior (which is Majapahit's people place to live when it's empire destroyed and remain Hindu's holder)

I quite disagree, even as a newbie, I know that another civ has unique units name (Musketeer, Landsknecth, Samurai, etc)
But, Kris Swordman ? such a plain name, nothing unique except giant kris that they hold and that is not common to brings a giant kris in the battlefield since Keris is a heirloom, used for final weapon if their spears and swords lost

Welcome to the forums!

It's true that Firaxis went a little general on the name of the unique unit, but Indonesia is hardly unique in that regard. Polynesia got the Maori Warrior and the Shoshone got the Comanche Riders, for instance. Sometimes the designers feel the need to go a little more generic so they can adjust the units for gameplay reasons.

 

[ToothedBomb]

It's like one of the devs said in an interview: they're always trying to find a balance between historical accuracy and what the audience expects. (Most of) the audience wants to see stereotypical indians, snobby English and so forth.

 

[antaratma]

once again sorry for my bad english I'm still learning it at school so yeah
@bcaiko : thanks for the greetings

and thanks for your opinion, I can understand that, but in some case that's just makes people (of Indonesia for example) getting jealous because they got no unique name for their proud warriors. But don't think I went too disappointed, just to seeing my country in this game already makes me happy and proud, our people always dreamed about living in usa, japan etc (is it some kind of cultural victory ? hahaha). That's why when we heard about Indonesian stuff in the outside of our nation, we will go over proud.. (check some joke site or fact site that says Indonesian is the "most" of something [in positive way of course], lot of immature teenagers will go over proud)

@ToothedBomb

lol snobby English , that's the reason why me and Egypt declares war at Elizabeth in my game, she is just so damn annoying when she mock me and says that my people destroying rocks together

and yes, but i think that won't work in the number 2, I mean, why do people wanted to see a bad carved weapon instead of the beautiful one ? (for example). But like what I said above, just seeing Indonesia in this game already makes me happy

 

[Syailendra]

first of all, i want to ask, are you indonesian? Well, i am, and honestly i'm a bit offended by the inclusion of kris swordsman into the game, i feel that dev is just don't want to put efforts on it. Plus that wrong naration on the start up, it justifies my feelings!
But the damage is already done, and at the moment i just have to embrace the good feelings to play my own race on civilization v.
Okay, now lets move on, for your information Gajah Mada is doing a grave error on his old days at the 'battle of Bubat' then he is exiled and gone, there is not known where he finally buried, that is why there almost no evidence of how he looks like, but every bit of legend said that he is a captain of the royal guard that rise as mahapatih (prime minister), so i guess he do looks as a fat but muscular guy.
As for the palapa oath, the background story of it is that, nusantara (indonesian archipelago) is famous for nutmeg (pala in indonesian). But not eastern java, they have no pala source, and most probably they got embargoed at that time, so its not strange if the prime minister said that he won't eat any food with pala, not unless he have secured the source for his people. And that means he needs to conquer those embargoing kingdoms, the eastern source and the western traders. He did his promise, and control most of nusantara, leaving only sunda kingdom at west java, a pepper source (thus not included in the oath), as a close neighbour and good friend. After the queen Tribhuwana gave the throne to emperor Hayam Wuruk, the new emperor wants a diplomatic marriage with Sunda, but Gajah Mada ask king of Sunda a full surrender at Bubat Square, replied with a full frontal battle,thus ruining Gajah Mada credibility.
As for his name, in my local tongue, malays, gajah means elephant, while madah means religious chants or songs, thus 'GAJAH MADA' would means 'praising elephant'. But many people in this forum and on the internet wants to put sanskrit translation which gjah means extremely strong, and madhu means mead, leading to a 'an extremely strong drunkard', an akward name for me, but that seems to be the general conclusion in this forum. Whilst 'elephant general' for me is just some english simplification without any linguistic foundation.

 

[victorpras]

About Gajah Mada fat appearance, I think this is the terracotta that is said to resemble his look.

One misconception that I have heard about Gajah Mada, he actually wasn't the ruler of Majapahit. He was the prime minister (mahapatih) but he served more like a war general. During his time, the leader of Majapahit was Queen Tribhuwannottungadewi (dont bother trying to read her name), who appointed Gajah Mada to be the prime minister. She was later succeeded by her son, Hayam Wuruk.

Another misconception about Indonesian civ is how you pronounce the UB, Candi. A lot of my friends read it like "candy', but it is actually pronounced more like "chan-dee". In english, it translates to temple.

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

About the Kris Swordsman, the reason why they've went with the Swordsman was because the Civil War Scenario actually came first, the devs liked the idea of the random promotions so much, but they didn't have anywhere to put it, then they discovered the Kris Swords and their mystic history.

 

[secon]

my wife is from indonesia and last time we went to visit we went to Majapahit which was pretty neat. so of course the first civ i played when i got brave new world was indonesia. quite fun i agree with some of your points though i think the game makers aren't really concerned with being totally accurate like that it's more general i think.

 

[zukenft]

salam deh buat anak baru. just letting you guys know there's another indonesian in the house.

now come to think about it, how the hell did the developers get an archaic Javanese language expert? it's rare enough in Indonesia (not all Indonesian are Javanese, not all Javanese know archaic version of the language). And they could find it in the US?

 

[GamerFlair]

To be fair, Indo isnt even the most historically messed up civ either.

I mean, America is capable of building Culture.

The problem with all games dealing with anything other then modern history is that the history is pretty rubbish and there's usually about 8 different versions. This problem is even worse in areas such as south east asia/africa/americas because we european's were really really good at burning, defiling and generally ruining anything that would have made a good history source when we tried going to conquest victory.

 

[Viregel]

Saya tidak bisa berbahasa Indonesia, sehingga Google Translate merupakan pilihan terbaik kedua. (Done with Google Translate, obviously.)

Translation:

Spoiler :

I can not speak Indonesian, so Google Translate is the second best option.

Anyway, I was thinking that Indonesia could go something like this:

UA: Something about some sort of strait
Gain 25% of a Trade Route's total gold if it ends its turn in your territory. Whenever you demand tribute from a city state, gain +1 gold on all tiles that you border with them.

UU: Some kind of ship
Replaces Trireme. Has +1 movement, and intimidates city states with double strength.

UB: Candi
Replaces Temple. Gain +1 faith for every trade route into the city.

This is made with ideas from around the forum. Sorry for my lack of Indonesian, but I will get round to learning it! (In about 10 years time)

 

[SnowKomodo]

I'm Indonesian and I don't really have any problems with Indonesia aesthetically.

The reason I say this is because I look at other leaders in the game and how they are not 100% historically accurate. In general though there is a good balance between accessibility (for non-Indonesians) and history. I think you just have to use your imagine a bit. Kris Swordsman = Bhayangkara (or take your pick of any Majapahit Royal Guard names that might have wielded a Kris)

As for Gajah Mada's fat appearance: If it's true that he held all the positions he did, realistically he probably was a very buff, in-shape person. But it's kind of part of the folklore and legend that he's fat and majority of Indonesians accept this, so there's really no issues here.

So basically, considering this is their first attempt at Gajah Mada and considering they care most about making an interesting leader and interesting gameplay, I think they did a very good job on all fronts. (Gameplay is unique, for sure, but whether or not it is effective and fun to play is for a different thread to debate...)

I only have one problem: The pronunciation of Gajah Mada. It's one thing to pronounce it wrong, which I would pardon, but they pronounce it wrong in two different ways, which shows they weren't even trying. That is a little bit disrespectful to me. (They also mispronounced Majapahit)