Message to Firaxis

[Beam]

teturkhan,

Could you please comment where you want to go with this thread, it is your thread after all.

On the post of God (the CFC user, not the anticipated real one), IMHO you hit the button!

 

[TETurkhan]

Beammeuppy is right lets get back to the original more constructive topic and that is how to make Civ better.

1- More Cultures
2- Better end game movies and wonder movies
3- Culture specific music
4- sizable unit pack
5- more leader to choose from


And if this seems too much than simply enable us to do so in the editor. A powerful yet easy to use editor is the key in my view for Civ3 to become one of the greatest games ever.

One more thing, I put up a thread about Map editing, if any of you at Firaxis are reading this, I would so much appreciate your insight.

 

[Beam]

Originally posted by teturkhan
Beammeuppy is right lets get back to the original more constructive topic and that is how to make Civ better.

1- More Cultures
2- Better end game movies and wonder movies
3- Culture specific music
4- sizable unit pack
5- more leader to choose from


And if this seems too much than simply enable us to do so in the editor. A powerful yet easy to use editor is the key in my view for Civ3 to become one of the greatest games ever.

One more thing, I put up a thread about Map editing, if any of you at Firaxis are reading this, I would so much appreciate your insight.

1 - This is with both the editor and upcoming patches in mind, Firaxis, please introduce more than just the +8! Please allow for cultures being different throughtout the game and for creating those cultures through the editor.
2 - The movie part is a big reward once achieved. XP players probably want to play on, yet just to sit back and relax viewing the movie of an achievement just adds that extra bit.
3 - Adding a Civ specific dir for mp3 should not be that difficult. And if you wanna play Death Metal with Persia, what the heck?
4 - Need to say more?
5 - Peaceful leaders, like when the 10^n barrier is hit, just to name an example.

 

[Evie]

Originally posted by Higher Game
You just side with him because he has been here longer. We both know a lot about history; again, I am second in my class in history. Although we both know a lot about history, he swallows the pc stuff about those barbarians being real civs.

And yes, the Seljuk tribe is a barbarian tribe in civ 3. They mercilessly slaughtered one of my settlers

Which means what exactly?

I am a history student in university. Eastern Asia focus. My grades have been in the B+/A range. So I think I'd know better than you about history in general and eastern asia in particular.

The Arabs *DID* preserve vast amounts of knowledge throughout the dark age. They were, generaly speaking, far more civilized than your dear europeans. (And for the records, I'm a North American of European descent (ancestors first arrived around 1608)), who at roughtly the same time spent most of their time in feudal warfare and other such highly inteligent pastime.

The mongols did carve an empire of immesnse size within the space of a generation. That alone make them worth being considered a civ. It's also worth noting that they were not eventually defeated or any such, but simply assimilated themselves (so to speak) in the Chinesse civilization - after conquering China. So to speak, the Mongols beat the crap out of China military-wise, but China got back at them with a culture-flip of the whole empire.

The only civ that I see below the Arabs is the Mongols. A lot of Chinese culture (the little bit they had)

Little bit they had? LITTLE BIT THEY HAD? What the **** are you on, man?

We're just talking about one of the most ancient civilization on earth. It (specificaly, the kingdom which would eventually form China, and are generally acknowledged as the original Chinesse culture) was a power to be acknowledged back when Rome was no more than a set of little sparesly populated (if populated at all) hills, back when the egyptians and greek were learning how to be that. It was an empire every inch as powerful as the roman empire at its greatest height - but when Rome fell, China lived on. Certainly, there were many dynasties, but even when the Mongol conquered them, it was the mongol who eventually "culture-flipped" to China, and China remained just about the greatest power in the world until the rise of the British empire.

Certainly, Rome and Greece shaped the culture of Europe (and America by extension). But what you don't seem to notice is that China had every inch as much effect on the culture of Asia - Korea and Japan, to name two current world economical powers, were greatly influenced by China, and such things as Confucianism.

was destroyed by their invasions. I learned 3 important things about China and Japan from school: The Chinese are evil communists

Now that's an imbecilisticaly racist comment if I ever heard one. No wonder you came on top of an history class that taught such black-and-white bull****.

The state of China is vaguely communist at present. But have you taken the time to examine what option were offered to the Chinesse when they picked communism? It was either communism under Mao, who remotely claimed to care about them, or capitalist dictatorship under CKC, who didn'T even care about them.

and America is here to stop them,

Oh geez. Are you innocent, a redneck, or just simply stupid?

The Japanese attacked us at Pearl Harbor, siding with Hitler,

So did Italy (side with Hitler). You don't seem to have much of a problem with Italy nowaday, do you?

and China taught their history to a single man, Marco Polo.

Whom many serious historians believe never even reached China in the first place, and wrote his story based on the words of other who actually did that.

America's Civil War was studied more than China. And for a good reason,

Yes. An american school would teach american history first and foremost. Duh. It's not a matter of importance, it'S a matter of national focus. If you haven't realized that, I don't know what you're on.

Abraham Lincoln was one of our finest presidents.

And that means what?

I am not 11 or 12, I am 16. And I know that wrestling is fake. I know my history very well here.

Sadly, that is an outright lie. You may know american history well, however you know next-to nothing about anything outside america and Europe (and even Europe you don'T know that well)

Sorry to those who wanted this thread to go back to the original topic. I couldn't leave this post of his like that without replying. Butchering, slaughtering and otherwise twisting history like he did does that to me.

 

[Ozymandius]

I love it when these civilized people have word fights over civilzations. Where are the the mongols and Ghengis Khan or before them the Huns, the Goths, the Vandals. The common thread was normally some tribe out of central Asia attacking west (with an occasional southern strike) and pushing out the guy who pushes out the guy... until they hit the Irish Sea. The Saxons (fo the Anglo type came from Saxony (Germany) and the Normans came from France after they had come from the North (Northman) ie the Vikings. The Vikings set up Moscow and many Mediterranean Islands.
Only one civilzation, the Christians from Europe, fought enough wars and killed enough people and espoused progress. They stole everyone's better ideas and after discarding the Church's control when Galileo pricked their self-centered universe, perfected mass destruction.
The European civilizations should always win (including the USA)

 

[TETurkhan]

Oda, why not Takeda or Kagetora?

Higher Game is just a kid, not worth the time. I figure he is here just for attention.

 

[Zouave]

Originally posted by teturkhan
Beammeuppy is right lets get back to the original more constructive topic and that is how to make Civ better.

1- More Cultures
2- Better end game movies and wonder movies
3- Culture specific music
4- sizable unit pack
5- more leader to choose from

All meaningless and superficial. Couldn't care less.

What Civ 3 SHOULD do, and have:

1. A patch (no new disks) for MP, scenario-building, and a Civ 2 style Cheat Mode.

2. An end to Settler Diarrhea flooding the map with crappy little towns that can never be productive due to poor terrain and corruption, and can't be defended in war. Only the dumb AI leader would waste his shieds like that.

3. An end to Culture Flipping and the absurd barbaric option of razing cities and instantly exterminating the population, their corpses vanishing somehow.

4. An end of crazy massive corruption (partially dealt with in the Editor slider with 1.21).

5. An end to game crashing, especially after editing.

6. A better more complete editor, and one where you can add new units (without crashing the game).

7. A much better Espionage system.

8. A much better trade system where trade routes can be interdicted by naval units.

9. A real use for submarines and privateers (see #8 above) in which they can attack enemy merchant shipping and trade - their historic purpose.

10. Roads CAN be used by an invading army.

12. More automated functions for massive numbers of units, such as "rally points", automated naval bombardment, etc.

13. A far more historical set of unit values: elephants should not airlift but leaders CAN. See the Plutarck's LWC mod for better and more accurate units.

14. A smarter Military and Diplomatic AI. They do such DUMB things and are predicatable. It can be programmed better than this.

15. And end to AI cheating.

16. A faster game.

17. A more complex and larger tech treee with more options.

And a lot of other things, but those are the top 17 that NEED to be corrected to make me feel as though I got my money's worth.

 

[Evie]

Originally posted by Zouave


All meaningless and superficial. Couldn't care less.

What Civ 3 SHOULD do, and have:

1. A patch (no new disks) for MP, scenario-building, and a Civ 2 style Cheat Mode.

I don't care, it's already coming, what's the need for the cheat mode when you already have a full power scenario editor which let you place units and such?

2. An end to Settler Diarrhea flooding the map with crappy little towns that can never be productive due to poor terrain and corruption, and can't be defended in war. Only the dumb AI leader would waste his shieds like that.

Agreed. It gets very annoying.

3. An end to Culture Flipping.

Changing it, yes, maybe, removing it completely? No. Culture is one of the coolest aspect in the game as far as I'm concerned, and removing culture-flipping completely would really make Civ III a lot less fun for me.

Perhaps make it an optional feature in the start-up menu so that those who like it can have it, and those who don't can remove it.

4. An end of crazy massive corruption (partially dealt with in the Editor slider with 1.21).

Preach on. Corruption is really an annoyance in Civ III, though the slider does help.

5. An end to game crashing, especially after editing.

Within reasonable limits, anyway. You can't ask for a game that never crash, but reducing the amount of game crashing some people seems to run in (mine works just fine) should definitely be a good thing.

6. A better more complete editor, and one where you can add new units (without crashing the game).

Already underway in the next patch, it's been said.

7. A much better Espionage system.

You mean there's espionage in Civ III? I almost never research that tech, not worth the time, and what you get before is more like diplomacy.

8. A much better trade system where trade routes can be interdicted by naval units.

Agreed on trade route interdiction, but otherwise the system seems fine to me.

9. A real use for submarines and privateers (see #8 above) in which they can attack enemy merchant shipping and trade - their historic purpose.

Hard to implement without trade units, but trade units make the game long and boooooring.

10. Roads CAN be used by an invading army.

I'm a bit iffy about that. I can see where it makes sense, but again, one would imagine that when building their roads, the people in charge of a territory woudl set up defenses to keep enemies from using them - ie, landmines, the like.

12. More automated functions for massive numbers of units, such as "rally points", automated naval bombardment, etc.

That could be useful.

13. A far more historical set of unit values: elephants should not airlift but leaders CAN. See the Plutarck's LWC mod for better and more accurate units.

Accuracy vs game balance, game balance should come out on top. Great leaders airlifting perhaps make things a bit too fast with them. I'd make workers airliftable before great leaders, personally.

14. A smarter Military and Diplomatic AI. They do such DUMB things and are predicatable. It can be programmed better than this.

I'd challenge you to prove it, but admitedly, a better AI would be interesting.

15. And end to AI cheating.

Let's make all the difficulty levels equaly easy.

16. A faster game.

17. A more complex and larger tech treee with more options.

And what would these options give? More units? We're already pretty complete as for units. More city improvements? I could see one or two added, but...

The fact of the matter is, there's all the needed technology, unless one want to make it impossible to reach a decent age in a decent time. It may be a bit too fast right now, but better that than the reverse. A fast tech tree has always been a civilization tradition.


And a lot of other things, but those are the top 17 that NEED to be corrected to make me feel as though I got my money's worth.

Some of it very reasonable, some of it with free covering already underway, and some of it just plain exxagerating, or presented a selfish way (IE, you want them to alter something even if it could dreadful change teh game environment, even for those who enjoy it more as it is. Optional changes with that, maybe, but certainly not simply removing certain features (read : culture-flipping). Multiplayer has never been a original release feature of the civ games, and even though it's common in the computer market today, that's no reason to say that a game isn't worth the money for not having it.

[/QUOTE]

Personally, once the scenario editor release, I'll be perfectly happy with Civ III.

 

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by GhengisFarb

By beef is why they chose the Iroquois, there were MANY larger and more powerful American civs like the Inca and Cherokee (who had developed their own written language by Sequoyah).

To quote an earlier post, read a book, or two, even.

 

[Higher Game]

I would hate to see you people saying China isn't evil. Remember Tiannamen Square? They don't have freedom and we do. Unfortunately, a lot of people from this forum are from Europe, where socialism is becoming more popular again

Communists are just atheist monsters that don't know how to do anything BUT poprush their citizens into oblivion. They call it "population control." And the communist idea was taken from Germany's Karl Marx. Thousands of years of culture got flipped from a single person. The dynasties are dead and gone because of a humble German working class philosophter. Now THAT is true power. I, however, am not proud that a European thought of communism.

If you don't think China is so bad, why don't you go live there?

 

[Bamspeedy]

Dude, you need to differentiate between the people and culture of a civ and the current government. Government does not define a civilization. I'm an American and was taught some of the things you are mentioning (although not to the extreme you are metioning), with Russia being the 'SUPER BAD' country, because the 'cold war' was still going on but the cold war would be over in a few years.

Like has been mentioned before, go to the library, surf the web, you will find more un-biased info than the text books you have at school.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I have read elsewhere: Communism has some great ideas if they were implemented correctly, one reason communism doesn't work today is because of the leader that gets greedy and does things to help himself more than the country. China had thousands of years of culture (and still do), well before they turned to communism. Because they are in a communist state does not mean they don't have culture. There are countries that have harsher penalties for crimes than some communist countries have.

 

[Higher Game]

I learned something scary recently. The enemy that will destroy Israel in Armageddon is supposed to be in the north. And if you draw a line from Jerusalem north, you will eventually end up right in Moscow

The theory now is that Russia will join OPEC and try to take over the world. Russia has always been seen as the "Evil Empire" (well, since the 50's) and probably will always be seen that way. There is just something not right about Russia... Even now.

As for Chinese culture, they embraced Marx's communist ideals and were ruined. Whatever is left of Chinese culture is hiding now. Temples and shrines are being destroyed by the Chinese government, even in Tibet. Now the monks only have a little bit of Nepal to say in

China, ugh.

 

[TheNiceOne]

Originally posted by Zouave
What Civ 3 SHOULD do, and have:

1. A patch (no new disks) for MP, scenario-building, and a Civ 2 style Cheat Mode.
And free drinks too. Seriously though, I feel that I got what I paid for. It seems that we will get the patch for scenario building (and maybe a cheat mode to go with it) for free.

2. An end to Settler Diarrhea flooding the map with crappy little towns that can never be productive due to poor terrain and corruption, and can't be defended in war. Only the dumb AI leader would waste his shieds like that.
A better AI would of course be welcome, but I think it have got better in 1.21. Producing lots of settlers in the beginning is a must, if not it would be even easier to outbuild the AI. Some of the unproductive cities are built due to importance of the terrain, but they shouldn't build cities they cannot defend.

3. An end to Culture Flipping and the absurd barbaric option of razing cities and instantly exterminating the population, their corpses vanishing somehow.
I think culture flipping is great. It gives us a peacful tactic of building close to enemy cities and rushing culture bildings, and it forces the player to somehow balance power and culture.

4. An end of crazy massive corruption (partially dealt with in the Editor slider with 1.21).
In my current (huge map) game I crank out 30+ tanks each turn and discover a tech every fourth turn with a per-turn income of 300+ gold. I don't think the corruption is particularly crazy or massive. Certainly, the game woul be easier if I could build 50+ tanks each turn and have an income of 600+ gold, but it would be even less challenging and not more fun.

5. An end to game crashing, especially after editing.
Of course, but to me this is an almost non-existing problem, as I've had the total of two crashes in my several hundreds hours of game play. (After one I could reload and continue, after the second I had to change some orders before the game would work). But then I don't edit the game.

6. A better more complete editor, and one where you can add new units (without crashing the game).
This will be here within a month, I believe.

7. A much better Espionage system.

8. A much better trade system where trade routes can be interdicted by naval units.

9. A real use for submarines and privateers (see #8 above) in which they can attack enemy merchant shipping and trade - their historic purpose.
I agree to all three.

10. Roads CAN be used by an invading army.
I think this is a quite good way to portrait all problems an army has in enemy territory. The germans certainly moved a lot slower in Russia than they did in their home country (or than the Russians did).

12. More automated functions for massive numbers of units, such as "rally points", automated naval bombardment, etc.
I agree

13. A far more historical set of unit values: elephants should not airlift but leaders CAN. See the Plutarck's LWC mod for better and more accurate units.
I agree about the airlift thingie, but not about the more historical unit values when it comes to battle resolution. Before the attack and defense (or HP) values were changed, we'd need to get more historical match-up of enemies. It's completely unhistorical to regularly see tanks vs. spearmen and not fun to see the tanks overrun the spearman without a fight.

14. A smarter Military and Diplomatic AI. They do such DUMB things and are predicatable. It can be programmed better than this.
I agree that the game would become much better with a smarter AI. It is difficult to implement, however.

15. And end to AI cheating.
I don't think the AI cheats much. When it comes to seeing all our units (where it obviously cheats), they cannot simply remove it. They would then have to implement some kind of memory - the memory of what it has seen of your units, and the memory of where their units has been resently etc. This would be very difficult, and this is not a perfct world.

16. A faster game.
I understand this is a problem for some players, but In my current huge map game I've just reached the modern age, there are numerous wars going on, but the waiting between each turn is less than 10 seconds. I'm playing on a 1GHz P3 notebook with 256 RAM, btw.

17. A more complex and larger tech treee with more options.
Agreed.

And a lot of other things, but those are the top 17 that NEED to be corrected to make me feel as though I got my money's worth.

I feel I have already got more than my money's worth, but I've understood from most of your posts that you don't Many of your suggestions would make the game better though.

 

[GeneralTacticus]

Originally posted by Higher Game
I would hate to see you people saying China isn't evil. Remember Tiannamen Square?

So you think that because China is run by autocrats, it's people are all evil communists?

They don't have freedom and we do. Unfortunately, a lot of people from this forum are from Europe, where socialism is becoming more popular again

Being ruled by a dictatorship does not equate to being in favour of said dictatorship. If John Howard declared martial law tommorow and made himself dictator do you think that would mean that I am now an evil fascist who opposes freedom?

Communists are just atheist monsters that don't know how to do anything BUT poprush their citizens into oblivion. They call it "population control".

No, communists are just misguided. Some communists are mass murderers; do are some other people. And communist atrocities have nothing to do with 'population control'.

And the communist idea was taken from Germany's Karl Marx. Thousands of years of culture got flipped from a single person.

The actual communist ideal was first taken from Marx before being perverted by people like Lenin, Stalin and Mao. Marx's ideas weren't very well though out anyway.

The dynasties are dead and gone because of a humble German working class philosophter. Now THAT is true power.

Correction: the Chinese dynasties are gone because of a man named Sun Yat-sen. The communists took power later on.

I, however, am not proud that a European thought of communism.

And why not? Not saying that you should be, but you are implying that you are ashamed of that fact. Why should you be?

If you don't think China is so bad, why don't you go live there?

Do you think that, say, Australia is that bad? If not, why don't you go live there? Thinking that someplace isn't populated by a bunch of evil communists does not equate to wanting to live there.

 

[Bamspeedy]

http://encarta.msn.com/find/concise.asp?mod=1&ti=05135000&page=1#s1

That's a good, informative article, I recommend reading it.

One key paragraph I would like to post:

Communist regimes have ruled many countries, so it is not surprising that the practice of communism has varied widely among them. The societies in which communists have exercised control have themselves been diverse, although none has been among the advanced industrial countries where Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels believed the workers' revolution would catch fire. Some communist officials have been revolutionaries, others reformers, and yet others dyed-in-the-wool conservatives. Some leaders, such as Joseph Stalin and Pol Pot, have been mass murderers; others, such as Mikhail Gorbachev, have eschewed
(which means avoided, shunned) force. Their differences notwithstanding, communist states have shared certain features: a Marxist-Leninist ideology, a centrally planned economy, single-party rule, and restrictions on individual freedom.

Another note about when you mentioned Tianneman Square. What about that college (Kent University?) back in the 60's or 70's that had unarmed college students shot down by military police because they were protesting the war? And to think this happened in a democracy!

 

[Evie]

Originally posted by Higher Game
I would hate to see you people saying China isn't evil. Remember Tiannamen Square?

Indeed. A numbers of protesters butchered by the army. Common sight in despotic government.

They don't have freedom and we do.

Yeah, I mean, they're all kept in little cages in zoo...

Oh, wait, you aren't talking about animals here, are you?

Everyone has some measure of freedom. You have more than them, certainly, but saying they don't have any of it is another of those ridiculous attempt of yours at painting the word black and white.

Unfortunately, a lot of people from this forum are from Europe, where socialism is becoming more popular again

Which is why a extreme-right candidate named Jean Marie Le Pen scored heavy points in the french election...Oh, wait, socialism and communism are left wing stuff. Silly me.

You are confusing socialism (the step which goes before communism in Marx philosophy), Communism (Marx's utopian society where everyone work as they can, get as they need) and social-democracy (a center-left policy which involves a quite free economy but with safeguards set by the state and lots of free services from the state to make sure everyone has access to minimaly decent living conditions - a common type of government in the "modern" world, with even the US having a lot of SD aspect)

Communists are just atheist monsters

Atheist is an insult now? Well, guess I should feel insulted, I happen to be one of those atheist. Then again, the insult of a 16 years old who think atheis is such an insult somehow don't seem to bother me very much....

that don't know how to do anything BUT poprush their citizens into oblivion.

But they can produce settlers that way! And that means more town!

Or where you talking about reality, which is QUITE different, thank you very much? I just spent the last term studying modern-day China and no, it is not common policy to send people to the concentration camps, reeducation camps or such to make them work faster. It's in fact about the reverse. Don't confuse communism with Stalinist dictatorship.

They call it "population control.

Population control is quite something else. Population control is about discouraging people from having kids, therefore ensuring that the country population don't overextend its resources. They do have something in excess of a billion inhabitants there, you know.

" And the communist idea was taken from Germany's Karl Marx.

To put it in a more accurate way, Marx developed the written communist philosophy.

Thousands of years of culture got flipped from a single person.

Errr...what has culture-flipping got to do with this now? And you were starting to make sense with that Marx comment.

The dynasties are dead and gone


Reality check, most of the dynasties dying had nothign to do with a single german philosopher. The french kings died to a series of (non-communist) revolutions. The english one are still around, and had little power since long before communism. The Chinesse emperors were put out of the running thanks to an army coup which had precious little to do with communist and a lot to do with personal ambition. Etc...

because of a humble German working class philosophter. Now THAT is true power. I, however, am not proud that a European thought of communism.

Because it would be better if someone else had? That'S a racist comment if I ever heard one. Then again, your comments before here were nto exactly good for equality of people.

If you don't think China is so bad, why don't you go live there?

The standard pathetic closure comment. "Why don't you...(etc)"

Lots of reason

1-China isn't that bad, but it's still no fully modern country (which doesn't have so much to do with them having a communist government than with them being in civil war throughout the first half of this century)
2-Overpopulation. I wouldn't want to add to their burden.
3-I just so happen not to speak chinesse (though I am in the process of (slowly) learning Japanesse).
4-I don't have the money to move halfway across the world.
5-I'm still a university student, I'd like to finish my studies.

Originally posted by Higher Game

I learned something scary recently. The enemy that will destroy Israel in Armageddon is supposed to be in the north. And if you draw a line from Jerusalem north, you will eventually end up right in Moscow

After going, randomly, through such locations as Syria, Turkey, the Black sea, right up to *GASP* the North Pole! Santa is going to be the enemy that will destroy Israel at Armageddon!

Of course, that's providing there will be such a thing as armageddon, with an enemy coming from the north (looking at the last 50 years of Israeli existence, IMHO ANY direction except "west" would work in that prophecy...Israel wouldn't win a regional popularity contest, that's for sure).

The theory now is that Russia will join OPEC and try to take over the world.

Ok, Russia is going to take over the world by joining the OPEC. Any other half-baked theories you have to throw at us?

Plus, it's the Nato they are trying to join, not the OPEC. And doing a fairly good job at it, given that they have been given what pretty much rank to a "consultatory membership" (IE, they sit in and talk on decision making on a number of topic)

Russia has always been seen as the "Evil Empire" (well, since the 50's)

I think they lost that job in 1977. Their Mig-25 didn't quite have the mystic appeal of the Death Star, Star Destroyers, and black-caped warriors for "evil empire" duty.

That and the fact that Russia was no country in the 50s, and only retrieved that status under fifteen years ago.

and probably will always be seen that way.

Strange, I thought the evil guys now were Bush's axis of evil...

or maybe I'm mixing them up with the separatists let by count Dooku...

There is just something not right about Russia... Even now.

Frankly, I'd be more concerned about Osama Bin Laden than about what's Russia up to. Some people here need to let go of the past and concentrate on PRESENT threats.

As for Chinese culture, they embraced Marx's communist ideals and were ruined.

Errrr, no. They were already ruined at the point where they embraced the communist ideals, due to having missed out on the industrial revolution, and having been turned into the "Whore of Asia" by European powers.

Whatever is left of Chinese culture is hiding now.

Oh God...

Some people need to realize the cultural revolution (which was pretty awful) has been over for well over twenty years.


Temples and shrines are being destroyed by the Chinese government, even in Tibet.

Yes, that's one bad thing the Chinesse government is doing. Then again I could name a few governments, friends of the US, who seems to think bulldozing stuff and oppressing minority who don't like being in the country (and I'm not talking about Israel, which is a very murky case) is a fine thing. Turkey, for one.

Now the monks only have a little bit of Nepal to say in

Well, a little bit of Nepal *AND* just about the rest of the world.

China, ugh.

You're still confusing country, people and government.

And you're still trying to see the world in irrealist black and white terms.

EVERY government do bad stuff. EVERY government do good stuff. And China's far from the only tyrannical government, thank you very much. And not all of them are enemies of the "just and upright" american government (as if).

 

[Masquerouge]

Originally posted by Higher Game
I would hate to see you people saying China isn't evil. Remember Tiannamen Square? They don't have freedom and we do. Unfortunately, a lot of people from this forum are from Europe, where socialism is becoming more popular again

Socialism becoming more popular again ?

Gee wheez, I guess that's why the french presidential election was between a right-wing and a fascist, why Italy is under a government including neo-fascists, why right-wing extremists are the main political force in Denmark and the Netherlands, why Spain is under a right-wing government... should I stop there ?

I will not event comment your "enlightened" ideas about China, or the enemy of Israel. Middle-age cliches...
Well, I guess I will rather go to another thread and talk about the game, because I've got a feeling neither of us will convince the other.

 

[muppet]

Originally posted by Higher Game

I would hate to see you people saying China isn't evil. Remember Tiannamen Square?
China isn't Evil.

They don't have freedom and we do. Unfortunately, a lot of people from this forum are from Europe, where socialism is becoming more popular again.
Your neighbours to the north lean a wee bit towards socialism. Canada is Evil.

The dynasties are dead and gone because of a humble German working class philosophter. Now THAT is true power. I, however, am not proud that a European thought of communism.
Oh yeah. I almost forgot, Hitler destroyed the Chinese dynasties.

If you don't think China is so bad, why don't you go live there?
Some of us have. Have you?

 

[WarlordMatt]

I rate this thread no. 1 in number of personal attacks.
(I am posting this to raise my postcount.)

 

[muppet]

Originally posted by Higher Game

I learned something scary recently. The enemy that will destroy Israel in Armageddon is supposed to be in the north. And if you draw a line from Jerusalem north, you will eventually end up right in Moscow

The theory now is that Russia will join OPEC and try to take over the world. Russia has always been seen as the "Evil Empire" (well, since the 50's) and probably will always be seen that way. There is just something not right about Russia... Even now.
Did you learn this in school?

As for Chinese culture, they embraced Marx's communist ideals and were ruined. Whatever is left of Chinese culture is hiding now. Temples and shrines are being destroyed by the Chinese government, even in Tibet. Now the monks only have a little bit of Nepal to say in
There is a difference between the destruction of cultural objects and the destruction of a culture.