MH's Strange Settings Series 2 - Settlers of the Future!

[Mikehendi]

Welcome to MikeHendi's Strange Settings Series!!!

This will be a series of games where I’ll take some extreme approaches to normal civ IV concepts. Also we’ll often be using crazy settings, crazy rules, crazy WB-edited starts, and more crazy craziness in general.

I already have some ideas for a couple more games, but feel free to spam ideas for games in this thread. By the way, I usually play on Monarch or Emperor.


Game 2: Settlers of the future!

In this game, which has a slightly misleading title , we will be testing the capability of the AI at it's worst... A better description will follow as the game progresses...

Edit: Settings and descreptions edited in later, so excuse me if I repeat myself later in this thread

The strangeness:

1) AI's start with THE ENTIRE TECH TREE RESEARCHED! I'll use a normal ancient era start, and then add the AI techs in WB.

2. AI's start with 3 settlers, 3 workers, and 3 machine guns (without garrison they will not settle). Because with so many build options available, they may decide not expand at all for the first 4000 years! For nostalgic reasons, they still have their starting warrior or scout


The Normalness:

- Settler difficulty
- Epic speed
- Pangaea map
- Random opponents
- No huts
- No events
- No barbarians (Barb grenadiers spawning 2000BC? No thanks!)


How to win:

- I can choose any VC I want, but at the moment of winning, I have to be tech leader!

That was the original idea. I don't if there's a way to check how many future techs AIs have researched however. Any thoughts?


So who's gonna be our leader?

Elizabeth of England (Financial, Philosophical)

On settler, we recieve huge tech discounts, but no production discounts or 'worker improvement time' discount. That means, techs will be flooding in a lot faster then that we can build. So why choose FIN? Because it's just really really strong. It adds a lot of base commerce, which is multiplied twice, first by the usual building/civics (library etc), and then multiplied AGAIN by the huge settler discounts.

(A lot of the FIN vs ORG debate origins here imo. ORG on settler does nearly nothing, because you get 50% discount on the result of the upkeep formula, which returns a very low amount on settler. On higher levels, it's the opposite situation, ORG gives huge discounts, and the value of FIN is diminished by research 'penalties' (assuming noble values as average).

I was doubting between PHI and CRE. CRE gives a lot of early building discounts (no monuments, half price libraries) and fast border pops. PHI gives faster GP, which can then do their thing earlier then usual (and their raw yield when settled works just like FIN, multiplied twice). Also, PHI doesn't occupy my city as long as non-PHI when I want a GP (taking away citizens from the much needed hammer tiles)

In the end I chose for PHI, just because I love it

The Start:

That's a LOT of food! I already moved the warrior, there was only 1 direction he could go . SIP seems the way to go.

Once more the settings:

Let's begin this yet-to-become strange game!!

EDIT: Save is finally included!

 

[GGracchus]

How about you have to get a time VC and only can expand to 6 cities or something? No steamrolling the AI, no spaceship/culture with a tech lead, etc. Just preventing the AI from winning. You can't take vassals or DOW, but you can fight an AI if he DOWs you. You have to burn all his cities though.

 

[Abegweit]

AIs don't DOW on Settler.

 

[NoSuchName]

Burning cities comes with such a diplomatic penalty though. I'd suggest instead that all cities captured must be liberated immediately following a peace treaty at the latest. It's weirder this way.

 

[Mikehendi]

AI's do DOW on settler. After the normal AI DOW decision process is done, there's an additional RNG roll (if AI decided to DOW the player). It's something like 25% actually DOW, and 75% Nah, let's not DOW.

BTW the strange settings are already incorporated in the game, and though I'd love to incorporate a few more, those settings do not leave much flexibility.

This isn't a standard settler game. It might be very easy. It might be impossible. I hope it will be very close and exciting.

After I've played the first round a lot will become clear. Let's get to it!

 

[Mikehendi]

Allright... I couldn't keep it secret for long, here it goes!

First thing I discovered, on Settler you don't need to worry about early tech order
We start with a few bonus techs, and teching BW on Settler takes as long as teching Mining on ~Emperor!

This also allows for unusual openings: Instead of working a high-hammer tile to pump out the WB, it is actually better to grow to size 2 on the 3f tile and whip the boat when BW comes in!

The first AI we meet is Brennus, who apparantly is planning to build Stonehenge in our honor!

Notice anything strange yet?

Suddenly, all kinds of enlightenment inspire people around the world!

BW comes in...

And we whip the WB

We meet Hammurabi

And end the first set on t20. London will whip the 2nd wb soon, then worker @ size 2

Known land so far:

.

No AI is close, which is kind of surprising, given the (still untold) settings...

And last but certainly not least, the whole situation this game will revolve around:

Spoiler :

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Ohhhhhhhhhh...cute. I'm not sure if it will actually be challenging, but I haven't done a variant like this since civ II.

 

[bobbyboy29]

Nice! At what point do you think you can attack the AI's? Did you give them some starting units for defense? I wouldn't be surprised if you could overwhelm them with sheer numbers around the medieval era if not earlier.

I think that this game might turn out to be too easy though, I think that the settler AI is going to get bogged down trying to build expensive late game buildings and wonders and fail to expand or improve it's territory. I'd like to see you try it on warlord!

 

[GGracchus]

Well...no tech trading. You're going to need some siege to bust through mech inf.

 

[wylem]

Nice, I was wondering where the score came from the in screenshots and now I know.

As bobbyboy29 said I am wondering how far you can get before the AI even builds it's first unit.

How much would warriors vs mech infantry throw the power rating? The last few screens show you at 0.1 power compared to Brennus.

Could that mean an early DOW from the AI on settler level?

 

[GGracchus]

Apparently there's a 75% check whether or not to DOW even if they choose to DOW. More than likely some of that power rating is caused by all of the military techs that factor into power rating.

@OP: could you post the save?

 

[The Oz-Man]

Easy map. Wait for them to build Modern Armor and SPEAR RUSH!

This should be some fun diplo. Currency's going to be a priority since you can't really trade anything except munnies. Of course, the Settler AI might just be completely ineffectual and stupid even in this scenario, which would be hilarious.

 

[coanda]

Entertaining idea.

I'm inclined to think you'll have a huge edge over the AIs, because of how much their garrisons are going to cost. If a Settler AI opens Mechanized Infantry - first, they're not going to finish before around T70 or so. I'd think here you really could just get workers and settlers until you have enough land for peaceful domination. Then swap to Caste System, run artist specialists everywhere to pop borders, and you win.

 

[Mikehendi]

@ TMIT: Did you win your Civ II game?

@ Bobbyboy: I encouraged the AI to expand, I'll update the OP tomorrow with the details. Also, once the AI decides on a victory (which is likely (hopefully...) to be space race), It WILL focus on winning through that VC.

@ Wylem: the mil techs are mostly responsible for the power rating diff. No chance of catching up soon!

@ GGracchus: Because these games are trying out some extreme unknown things, a lot of them won't be a close call; they will either turn out to be a very easy win, or a ZOMG unavoidable loss. The fun is mostly in finding out which one it is. For that reason, shadow games will take away a lot of the readers interest in the main game.

Since this happened to the first game (there was a lot of debate on whether or not it was doable before any shadows were posted. when shadows showed it was easy game, interest died almost immediately). Therefore I will hold off posting the save until it is clear in which direction the game is going.


@ Oz: If only this were CivIII Never played it, but no Civ fan can be unaware of the thingy! Currency isn't needed for money trades, since every AI starts with currency, you can trade money with all AI's (just like when someone researches alphabet, you can tech trade with that AI despit not having Aplha yourself).

It is a priority though. We have great discounts on tech, but not on builds/worker improvements etc, so most techs that give some passive improvements (without needing to build/improve something) seem priorities (math for effective chops, sailing/currency for trade routes, CS for Bureaucracy.

Although we can probably build oracle CS, it is probably not worth the oppertunity cost to build it with our scarce production compared to mega research. Maybe if we can get education


A bit more info: Each AI started with 3 settlers, 3 garrison units (without them they won't settle), 3 workers and the original warrior or scout for exploration (even with satellites they'll want to explore to find the AI's locations). So that gives the AI 3 things to build at once, so less chance for them to clog up their civ with stupid builds


I was doubting between doing this on monarch, with giving AI's all ancient and classical techs (everything below music, philo, CS, engeneering, maybe optics?), or this one. I figured this one would be more extreme, but if it ends with a quick win or loss, there will be a game 2a on monarch!

 

[AutomatedTeller]

Unless the AI were given some modern units to start, they are kind of hosed. I mean - I think the cheapest MP unit they can build is the marine, which is 160 hammers. It'll take them 60-80 turns to build one.

You can't hurt it for a lot time, of course, but my guess is that the AI doesn't get more than 2 cities out. if you expand rapidly and build the great wall, the barbs might eat them alive (assuming there are barbs)

 

[Mikehendi]

I've updated the OP with the details of the game. No barbs was already known though.

The general consensus seems to be that this game will be too easy, we will see about that when Shaka turns up. Even with a stack of 3 modern armours, I don't think I can stop him.

I haven't tested how many axes/maces/muskets it would take on average to kill a small stack of mech inf/modern armours, someone up for that?

 

[Mikehendi]

Continuing the game from t20 on, we soon meet Hatty and find her borders

I almost forgot that I can enter her borders already, as I immediately signed Open Borders with the AI's upon meeting them.

So I move in. And decide against an early rush

Ok, I already knew that

London whips its 2nd WB and overflows in a worker @ size 2 next turn

We meet

Sailing comes in, giving us

Instant foreign trade routes, thanks to Open Borders!

We meet Hammurabi Himself

And he hands us this:

That's right, the AI gives you free techs when far behind! When they do, they randomly pick any of the available techs, so mysticism is just as likely as metal casting! No luck yet, though.

Writing is researched, so we can soon create our first GS. We set research to our first early goal tech:

I'm aiming for techs that give passive benefits (without me requiring to build something or improve tiles)

The first demands start coming in...

Fortunately there's a +2 or so diplo bonus on settler, so we have some buffer.

3 AI's borders are now known, seems like we have lots of room to expand.

Our high 'hammer' tiles at work:

prolly should have skipped the granary, and go for library first. We can't whip much faster then the whip anger wears off anyway

Another free tech!

Again a small snack though.

The AI's are pumping out 6-yield tiles like no tomorrow!

Most AIs have started in Bureaucracy and SP I believe.

The AI has build railroads. Good for us! Start of turn:

End of turn:

Some AI's switch to Emancipation... Uh-oh....

This looks bad, but I grew to 6 to whip library upon growth. growing from 5 to 6 added 3 ! 1 population, 1 militairy fear and 1 emancipation!

So the settler bonus happiness is negated by emancipation anger

Religion spreads to us.

With all AI's in different religions and with modern units, we'll just stay neutral, tyvm.

Also, we start chopping out some settlers and workers, while our cap generates a scientist.

Given that our worker is occupied chopping, I founded this city first

Currency adds another 5 beakers

Note that we're still running 100% research, with no empire costs whatsoever!

Suddenly, I start to question my 2nd city location

I need 6 cities, so I try a dotmapping a bit (if you have BUG, pres CTRL-x or ALT-x to do this)

.

Our land looks plentifull, but that big desert with mountains creates a big hole in my land. There's just enough room for 6 decentish cities, maybe there's more room to the NE. If we don't get those spots, the leftover cities can be settled in crappy overlapping spots within my territory. I'd rather have those spots, so let's go go go and spit out settlers

Any comments on the dotmap are welcome! I'm researching IW next to check for Iron before committing.

COL comes in, together with our first Scientist, who builds an academy

And Hatty completes the oracle like a Deity Pro!

Continued in next post, too much pics...

 

[Mikehendi]

Continued from last post:

I start trading away my health resources for happy

This guy won't be as useful as usual...

2 GPT and no health problems is better then 0 GPT and no health problems!

More happy

Yes I'm THAT greedy!

Iron working reveals...

No iron for grabs.

I try a small beg

which fails. each time you beg, the 'beg credit' you've built up is reset to zero, so I didn't try to beg from the other AI's yet.

Justinian is a true source of happiness!

Brennus builds

The Great Wall! The game doesn't appear to be that different from normal games, when you just look at wonders.

Oh, and apparantly we settled our 3rd city a while ago

Last AI is met:

He already knew me from the start apparantly (years of piece). And that excludes the Shaka's etc.!

CS completes, and we switch civics

Caste is an extra turn of revolution, so we don't suffer extra anarchy from not switching yet. I'll need slavery a bit longer.

Demographics:

I know every kind of units accounts for a certain # of soldiers. Also, each militairy tech and building (and possibly GG?) counts as a certain # of soldiers. Hence the power rating differences.

And the approval rate shows that the primitive were happier than the modern people!

==================================================

Techwise, I'm a bit unsure about how to continue now. We don't need to win lib, since there is no prize. No religion to chase, no music GA or other tech related GP to win...

Education isn't needed yet, as it will take a while to get 6 cities up and running...

Suggestions?

 

[NoSuchName]

Beeline Computers for the Internet.

Jokes aside, you should settle much more aggressively for those central city spots which likely will go first. Maybe aim towards Calendar techwise to improve those resources too.

Also, cancel those trades as quickly as you can - at least where you have more than one of the resource. "You gave us tribute" diplo points are worth a lot more than 2 gpt when the AI have such a huge tech lead. You have to have a clear diplomative plan, I'd recommend playing as nice as possible to your immediate neighbours when forced to pick sides so that they can act as a wall between you and your foes.

 

[coanda]

I haven't tested how many axes/maces/muskets it would take on average to kill a small stack of mech inf/modern armours, someone up for that?

I was curious, so I ran some simulated combats (100k combats at a time). 16 maces per Mechanized Infantry is a moderately safe margin of superiority with no promotions or terrain modifiers. You still have about a 1/20 chance of losing them all without killing the M.I. If you start fighting stacks - 3+ units - you'll want to use catapults. 12 catapults, plus 2 per additional Mechanized Infantry beyond the 6th, plus 5 maces per Mechanized Infantry gives you high odds of success.

These aren't exactly great results though. 16 maces is 1120, while 1 Mechanized Infantry for a Settler AI is 320 (you need to spend 3.5 times as much). 2 catapults and 5 maces is 450 hammers, so with large stacks and lots of collateral you spend 1.5 per hammer the settler AI spends.

Of course, if they get even modest terrain/fortification bonuses, that all flies out the window. To kill 2 mechanized infantry fortified defending hilltops, you'd need 50 maces. Good luck with that. Also, promotions. Drill is far more useful than Combat here; if you have 1 more first strike than they do, you can use 13-to-1; if they have 1 more than you, you need 20-to-1. With catapults you need to add a couple catapults for each Drill promotion they have, but you can't really decrease how many catapults you use if you have Drill or Barrage promoted catapults. But instead of 5 maces for 1 M.I., you can cut it down to 4.5 maces per 1 M.I. if you have 1 more first strike; bump it up to 6 maces per M.I. if they have 1 more first strike.

Rifling + Steel should let you fight them with roughly equal losses. Artillery + Industrialism + Flight begins to give you a favorable rate of exchange. Nukes are the obvious late-game choice.

Bottom line: unless you can out-produce their military production something like 4-to-1, you're not going to be winning any wars before Rifling. Since they get high-tech civics, tile improvements, and infrastructure, you may need more than 4 times as much land. And if you have more than 4 times as much land as them, why are you fighting a war anyways? Just tech up and grow peacefully. So I would focus on REXing early, and try to get as much land as possible peacefully.