Micro management
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eromrab
Naked Pirate
hmmm... or just doubling the amount of time it takes to construct it? that would be a more "abstract" way of doing the same thing... but would be more standardized, and would leave your improvements vulnerable to attack the whole time instead of just after they got there...
frekk
Scourge of St. Lawrence
eromrab said:
The only thing with that is, you could still build a road of any length in the same amount of time, just by starting all the squares at once, when it should progress over time from Point A to Point B, sort of - at least a road extending in a direction out past your border anyway. The worker - or some equivalent - means that although you can build a road in a single square very quickly, you can't have a road running 50 squares built in the same amount of time as a road running 1 square. If you get rid of any unit doing the work, then I'd propose that to build a road on a square you don't own, it must be adjacent to a road that's already built.
Imagine trying to deal with Aztecs who could start the game building huge roads out ahead of their Jags.
eromrab
Naked Pirate
but thats the whole thing... you have to "pay" for it with the pool... that would severly limit the amount of roads that they could build... and if it's outside of your culture and you put a double time limit on it... then it would either take twice as long... or cost twice as much as a normal rush...
or maybe even make it so that rushing the improvements outside of your borders is not possible?
or maybe even make it so that rushing the improvements outside of your borders is not possible?
frekk
Scourge of St. Lawrence
I don't think it would work, because if you had the money, you could still build a road of unlimited length in a very short period of time just by starting all the squares at once. It would be sort of weird in the modern era because you could probably afford to do that pretty easily, and with units like cavalry you could really zip off into the wilderness at a pretty wild pace. If you make it too expensive for industrial democracies to build roads this way, then ancient and medieval civs won't be able to build roads at all.
What about workforce, too? Do you have to build workers and assign some population to the national pool, or is your population irrelevant as to how much development you can do? If you could throw in the limitation of gold *and* population, and then also find some way to get around the simultaneous building problem, it might work.
What about workforce, too? Do you have to build workers and assign some population to the national pool, or is your population irrelevant as to how much development you can do? If you could throw in the limitation of gold *and* population, and then also find some way to get around the simultaneous building problem, it might work.
You could assign one of your population to be the one doing the improving, and so that would limit the building in accoradance with population, which is what the current system in effect does, except that afterwards you'd just turn the citizen back to normal, instead of having to make workers re-join cities, which on many occassions they can't (city has grown to max sieze/cannot support any more citizens).
eromrab
Naked Pirate
i would say it's both relevant and irrelevant... you see... you would get the pool points (pp) from taxes... so in fact the amount of people would be relevant cause it would determine the amount of pp you'd have... but if you had a vast empire and saved up a ton... but then all of a sudden got reduced to one city... then you would be able to build based on the pp, not the population... in theory i don't think it matters where the workers come from... maybe they're immigrants from the neighboring nations?
but anyways, there would be ways to limit it... maybe double the time it takes AND double the price AND make it so that there is no rushing? something like that would work... that combined with the fact that you have to "see" the territory, or at least have a unit on it... i think it would work fine...
but anyways, there would be ways to limit it... maybe double the time it takes AND double the price AND make it so that there is no rushing? something like that would work... that combined with the fact that you have to "see" the territory, or at least have a unit on it... i think it would work fine...
frekk
Scourge of St. Lawrence
I still think it would make expansion too fast. Under this system, I can't see that it would be balanced at all if you were allowed to build outside your borders ... I think you would have to restrict it to within your borders strictly. Maybe defensive units could build fortresses or something outside your borders, but roads ... it would just make expansion too fast unless you put some serious limitations on the speed at which roads could progress in a line out from your border. It's already bad enough that you wouldn't have to wait for a worker to get there. Plus, if you limit it strongly enough that an industrial era democracy isn't expanding its roads three to four squares ahead every turn (think about that on a 180x180 map even) and thus its settlers almost always moving at 3 squares, that much limitation would probably put external roads out of reach of ancient and medieval civs entirely.
Other than building roads outside the borders, though, its probably a workable option to get rid of the worker micromanagement.
Other than building roads outside the borders, though, its probably a workable option to get rid of the worker micromanagement.
eromrab
Naked Pirate
hmmm... what if you did this? instead in order to build a road outside of your culture... there has to be a road inside of the culture that it is connecting to...
thus, the first road outside of your culture is 1 square away from your boundaries... once that is done, then you can build another... and another... and such...
thus, the first road outside of your culture is 1 square away from your boundaries... once that is done, then you can build another... and another... and such...
Dida
YHWH
- Joined
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There is no need for any complicated system. To build inside or outside of your border, you just need to place down the PW project where you want it to go. You can only rush inside your border. Project outside of your border will cost twice as much and take twice as long. This doesn't make expansion too fast. Those who's afraid of expansion rate should play CTP and get to know the PW system. In fact, it makes the expansion slower. Because every tile of improvement costs money. With workers, improvements are free, the only cost is the worker units themselves.
This won't cause expansion in modern ear either. You do have more money in modern time, but again, RR costs more than roads, and maglev costs more than RR.
I have played CTP and Civ3, and let me tell you, the PW system doesn't result in RR and roads everywhere because no one will want to waste their money building non essential roads. In civ3, you do have RR all over the place, and with infinite movement it transformed your whole country into some kinds of huge superconducting material, on which you units can magically teleport from one point to another in nanoseconds. If anything can be less realistic it is the RR in civ3.
This won't cause expansion in modern ear either. You do have more money in modern time, but again, RR costs more than roads, and maglev costs more than RR.
I have played CTP and Civ3, and let me tell you, the PW system doesn't result in RR and roads everywhere because no one will want to waste their money building non essential roads. In civ3, you do have RR all over the place, and with infinite movement it transformed your whole country into some kinds of huge superconducting material, on which you units can magically teleport from one point to another in nanoseconds. If anything can be less realistic it is the RR in civ3.
eromrab
Naked Pirate
i didn't think it would be a problem... i was thinking there would be no way to get that kinda money to build these "expansionist roads" AND still be able to concentrate on building roads in your own territory AND get settlers built fast enough to accomodate this "rapid expansion"...
Dida
YHWH
- Joined
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Remember, tile improvement means more than just roads. They includes Mine, Farm, advance farm, advance mine, or even fishing nets, or fish farms, or drilling platform. You cannot get the kind of money, as eromrab said, to build all these, and still keep up your scientific research.
eromrab
Naked Pirate
man it would be great to finally be able to improve the water terrain!
I think the idea that any improvement would cost money is stupid. You can have a certain amount of worker units you don't have to pay for, so why not a certain amount of improvements each turnd that you don't have to pay for?
By the way, there is a point to building roads everywhere: every tile with a road on it gets 1 extra gold per turn. At least, that's how it's meant to work. I can't say I've ever been bothered enough to check this out.
By the way, there is a point to building roads everywhere: every tile with a road on it gets 1 extra gold per turn. At least, that's how it's meant to work. I can't say I've ever been bothered enough to check this out.
In a no workers model, if you want to build improvements outside your borders, there should be extra time taken to build it. The amount of time taken is equal to the travel time taken for a hypothetical 1-move unit to travel out to the tile being improved and back again. So let's say you want to build 6 tiles of road leading out of your territory, and the base road build time is 3 turns. The farthest tile isn't going to be finished until 15 turns after you start. Of course, the entire cost must be paid up front, and it is vulnerable to pillaging all that time.
You could of course try building in hostile territory, but it would be foolhardy at best given the time delay.
You could of course try building in hostile territory, but it would be foolhardy at best given the time delay.
frekk
Scourge of St. Lawrence
I guess that would work fine, but why not have just a few workers that could build outside your territory? Military engineers, basically? It wouldn't be like you'd have a ridiculous number of them like you have with workers. Alternately, you could go back to having this role assigned to Settlers. With no workers needed inside the borders, it's not like there would be a massive number of these units requiring micromanagement. I think people enjoy doing a little bit of building with units, and this would preserve that for those people while at the same time getting rid of the micromanagement problem.
frekk
Scourge of St. Lawrence
It's not bad, it's simple. I think there should be more of a focus on food production and population than gold in order to do terrain work, though it shouldn't be as cheap (in terms of food/population) as it is now. Another thing is that I don't want to have to sit and be doing nothing and stagnating completely whenever I don't have gold in the treasury. I'd like to have things to do, all the time, rather than bursts of micromanagement and complexity followed by clicking through turns doing nothing.
