Minor slavery optimization

[Paxel]

While playing I discovered this one (maybe it's known yet?)

"Switch to slavery when your first settler is travelling to found the city".

Doing so you lose the anarchy turn on the capitol only, not on the second city.

So the "window" to do it is only those 2-3 turns. You will lose a turn on the second city if you switch before or after its travel.

 

[Manco Capac]

It's known.
I even do that occasionally if I get a worker tech in a turn and that way the workers will improve earlier than if I switch later.

It's simply based on the fact anarchy has no effect on units but only research and city builds.

Also, if I get a very early BW, I try to switch asap, that way I lose less than switching with cities having strong bonus plots.

 

[Paxel]

It's known.
...
Also, if I get a very early BW, I try to switch asap, that way I lose less than switching with cities having strong bonus plots.

I don't understand this one. Losing a turn at the beginning of the game isn't the same thing of losing it 100 turns later? All is a chain and time is time.

 

[Manco Capac]

In term of city returns I was referring.

Imagine really early in the game when you work basically one or two strong food resources and perhaps some weak tiles. If you switch at that moment (considering a situation you're not pressed to get land asap and slavery has use), you would lose less city return than perhaps 20-30 turns later with 3 cities having much more city returns from more good tiles.

Yes, in term of anarchy duration*, it's basically the same, but you lose more later in the game than earlier.

*Anarchy duration is not a constant to be true. It's a function proportional to your number of cities and total population.

 

[landy]

In term of city returns I was referring.

......

but you lose more later in the game than earlier.

......

But IMO 1 hammer or beaker earlier worth more than 1 hammer or beaker later...

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

There are different stages of what people consider early. Your first 50 turns are in my eyes by far the most important stages in the game that dictate how well you will do. If you are hurting yourself in those first 20 turns to help with the next 80 by tons it doesn't matter at all as you gain a much larger bonus from it. But if you are hurting yourself in the later half of your first 50 turns for a marginal gain it will hurt you more. Civ is a game about optimization of speed, you want to be able to do everything as fast as possible because the sooner you get a key tech the more it will provide for you.

 

[Paxel]

In term of city returns I was referring.
...
Yes, in term of anarchy duration*, it's basically the same, but you lose more later in the game than earlier.

I still don't understand: I wrote that the best moment to switch to slavery is when your first settler is going to found the second city.

I really don't understand what there is to gain in switching before that, unless one plans to use whipping before settling.
(I'm talking about the usual opening: worker - warrior - warrior ... settler at pop 3 or 4)

 

[kossin]

It depends, there are too many factors to make this a general rule.

You just have to evaluate when you'll lose the least from Anarchy.

For instance, if your worker is making a mine on a hill and needs 1 more turn, you already have slavery and your total hammers will be 99H into the settler after this turn... it's best to go to slavery this turn. Not only the settler is not delayed but you gain 1H from the improved mine being worked over an unimproved tile.

Too many scenarios possible

 

[ben-jammin]

When I have a settler in place and an AI approaches the spot with a settler of their own, this is often when I switch into slavery. Claim the spot, but dont pay maintenance for the city for the first turn as a worker completes the trade route or starts improving a tile (this is in a situation where the city would otherwise have to work unimproved tiles while the workers do their thing).

 

[Manco Capac]

Also a large difficulty level spectrum and people should discard their deity experiences because it's not generalizing doing so. I can play deity, but I certainly don't let my deity experiences affect me too much because I play a large spectrum of difficulties.

And I see lots of deity players here and their experience (although generally strong) doesn't always apply. For instance, going into slavery early on, I dunno, prince-monarch in hope to take a nearby AI capital with axes would be madness on deity, but could be efficient on lower difficulty, especially if the capital is a great one, near, having many bonuses in the first culture ring while not being creative and a pretty defenseless AI (no hill, easy access, easygoing AI, not in slavery yet!).

Kossin got another example of the dimensional situation of units actions vs empire development.

Anarchy doesn't affect at all units behaviour (CivIII did by reducing worker efficiency in improving and that would an example of anarchy giving impact to units) and some situations make slavery good at one moment better than others.

Benjammin got another good example of improving a costless city while being able to improve what unimprovable bonus without that newly settled city.

Experience will tell which are good moments to switch to slavery.

 

[Habitus]

I still don't understand: I wrote that the best moment to switch to slavery is when your first settler is going to found the second city.

I really don't understand what there is to gain in switching before that, unless one plans to use whipping before settling.
(I'm talking about the usual opening: worker - warrior - warrior ... settler at pop 3 or 4)

An extreme example would be, your playing China, you have a riverside Corn, and rest of BFC full of forest. BW would be your first tech, if it finished researching before the worker (your first build) finished the farm on the Corn you are only losing a single unimproved tile + city tile + palace where if you waited till after the settler you are losing 3ish improved tiles + city tile + palace + maybe more.

 

[Ringo Kid]

Always switch to slavery as soon as you get the tech, because then you have more turns to USE the most powerful tool in the game.

 

[Soirana]

An extreme example would be, your playing China, you have a riverside Corn, and rest of BFC full of forest. BW would be your first tech, if it finished researching before the worker (your first build) finished the farm on the Corn you are only losing a single unimproved tile + city tile + palace where if you waited till after the settler you are losing 3ish improved tiles + city tile + palace + maybe more.

Not really since you also started working 2ish and 3ish tiles turn later.
What one is really winning in this situation is worker turns - which leads to more improved yields - in this case you win like 3 food on corn farm - maybe if you grow to higher pop you win few more food/hammers commerce while having 3th/4th tile improved.

 

[vranasm]

and then you hear about noble epic speed space ship victory of 1370 AD where the player claims never switching into slavery...

 

[iggymnrr]

and then you hear about noble epic speed space ship victory of 1370 AD where the player claims never switching into slavery...

Time dilation and length contraction.

 

[Paxel]

and then you hear about noble epic speed space ship victory of 1370 AD where the player claims never switching into slavery...

I agree that slavery is not always so important.

I won several peaceful space races at immortal level without using slavery at all, because I use cottage economy and every citizen is useful to grow cottages.

Yes of course I lose some production, but I get more commerce. With a financial leader a cottage near a river is an immediate 3 gold, why whip it?

 

[Habitus]

Not really since you also started working 2ish and 3ish tiles turn later.
What one is really winning in this situation is worker turns - which leads to more improved yields - in this case you win like 3 food on corn farm - maybe if you grow to higher pop you win few more food/hammers commerce while having 3th/4th tile improved.

True, the other possible way is if you can't improve the corn the turn the worker is finished, ie have to move thru a forest, as no growth delay then