Mob Rule: of Tree Huggery

[dreiche2]

maybe this thread is a better place to discuss things than the dwarven one...

So do others think it's a little bit against flavour that elven and leaves cities get so huge? here are my two cents from the other thread:


well I agree I found it kind of strange that elves (or followers of the leaves) would get huge cities...

though if you somehow decreased their growth, you probably have to overhaul the whole system, cause then the health bonus of guardian of nature is useless...

flavourwise, I think three things should be considered:

1. elves love forests
2. elves are not to numerous
3. in civ elves should probably be healthy and content


now, actually when the growth would be restricted, the health would automatically come from the forests (cause they already give health). Even the restricted growth could come from the forest (if you remove the additional food from the ancient forest). So maybe there should simply be different benefits from the forests instead of health and then everything comes from itself?

edit: so about the suggestion above, you could make forests produce GPP for example (I would not generally convert food into GPP though, that's somehow strange)...

edit: or concerning the food, you could make the elves (that is, the ljosalfar (sp?)) be self sufficient on forests, but give them less food on other tiles/farms etc. Followers of the leaves would get the normal food yield (just one), so they could still grow large cities, but if they want to make use of many forests the size is restricted...

 

[Bad Player]

I thought Elves/Fellowship was overpowered when I played them a while ago because you could have ancient forests with farms or cottages on them which made them totally awesome!!! but now I think this has been removed (haven't tried however). I did feel that the elves were underpowered for an offensive battle because 1) lack of seige units and 2) lack of powerful offensive units but to compensate massive cities with lots of resources (from ancient forests with cottages/lumbermills/farms and specialists) compensated due to sheer production power (quantity has a quality all of its own).

This news from an old version of FFH2 when ancient forests could have any improvement on them.

 

[Sureshot]

ljosalfar (sp?)

That's right. I had problems with it til i started breaking it down lol.
think J-Lo like Jennifer Lopez but reversed, then SAL like Salad, than FAR like distant. Ljo-sal-far.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

think J-Lo like Jennifer Lopez but reversed, then SAL like Salad, than FAR like distant. Ljo-sal-far.

Nice.

Anyway, I guess big elven cities does seem a bit strange, doesn't it? I hadn't considered the flavor aspect, but it is a good point.

 

[QES]

That's right. I had problems with it til i started breaking it down lol.
think J-Lo like Jennifer Lopez but reversed, then SAL like Salad, than FAR like distant. Ljo-sal-far.

Are you breaking down words again? Nikis might notice and then give us another large post .
-Qes

 

[Sureshot]

and id spew rhymic nonsense at him!

as for elves not having large cities, there were tons of elves in tolkiens mythology and they had huge cities (only time in tolkiens mythology that there weren't many elves is in the Lord of the rings time, when all the elves were leaving for the lands of the valar).

 

[QES]

and id spew rhymic nonsense at him!

as for elves not having large cities, there were tons of elves in tolkiens mythology and they had huge cities (only time in tolkiens mythology that there weren't many elves is in the Lord of the rings time, when all the elves were leaving for the lands of the valar).

There enlies the problem. During "the time of the elves" they were dominant. So, now we have a problem if we protray in elves in such a way as to give them all the goodies of elfdom, then they WILL BE DOMINANT. BUt how to encourage them to "leave" (were we to use the LOTR mythos)? In FFH an elven civilization is a compeditor just like anyone else. ANd therefore will seek many of the same goals (large cities, expansive empires, etc).

My thought is this.
In a truly "fantastic" world, each race really has its own means and its own ends, the interaction therefore between each race/civ becomes unique and compelling. Elves in many (not all) fantasy have little concern for empire, or waring, the dwarves have little concern for locations outside their mines, and for issues outside of wealth and martial prowess. So heres the deal. It is the HUMAN civilizations (and many evil ones) that typically go down the paths that civilization IV the GAME outlines.

If we truly want races to act and behave in particular ways (not forced, but encouraged) we must give each race a different meaning for their existance. We must make that which they are trying to accomplish, DIFFERENT from the accomplishment wishes of other civs. This would STILL be an interesting game, in that whom ever acheives their goals first is the winner.

I suggest giving each civilization its own "end-goal" Many civilizations should have standardised goals, like a military victory or some religious goal. But for elves and dwarves, perhaps they have greatly different wants/needs than the rest of the world. THe pursuit of their goals, naturally might interferre with the pursuit of others' twoard their ends, and that is where dynmaic interaction would come in. But were the development team able to do this, each would have its own feel, AND its own methodology, because their goals would be different. Elves then, if pursuing something more "isolationist" would not have need of being a "world-power" or at the very least, an isolationist world power.

I Personally think the following civs should have goals (victory options) outside of the standard...they should be hard to get...and take about just as long, but BE different:

Civ - Possible End-goal
Calabim - Spread their vampirism throughout the world
Ljosalfar - Reach the lands of the ancients
Sveltalfar - Destroy the lands of the ancients/ ancients themselves
Bannor - Destroy all deamons in the world (would need more barbarian units)
Khazhad - Have over 10000 gold per city and over 10 cities. (or whatever)
Luicurip(sp?) - Create 3 "perfect" golems
Elohim - Harbor the return of Utopia (vague but something here?)

If there are any others that seem "specific" purpose intended, please add them, otherwise i think the "standard" conquer or tower victories are fine.
-Qes

 

[Sureshot]

those are interesting ideas.. imagine once an elven city becomes 20+ it can build a ritual that gates it to some other dimension, and the goal of the elves for winning could be to do such to the point where they have no more cities
basically "we're better than you, and once we've built up to the point we're happy we're leaving you heathens to this crummy world" lol

really like the idea of different goals

 

[QES]

those are interesting ideas.. imagine once an elven city becomes 20+ it can build a ritual that gates it to some other dimension, and the goal of the elves for winning could be to do such to the point where they have no more cities
basically "we're better than you, and once we've built up to the point we're happy we're leaving you heathens to this crummy world" lol

really like the idea of different goals

THAT IS A BRILLIANT IDEA! IT would become harder to win the more successful you became! As peoples would likely be trying to stop you. Any city 20 or higher could "acsend" or...leave or whatever. Maybe not "every city" becuase some cities may never get to 20 (arctic cities). Maybe like 5-10 cities, or make it depend on map size. I think it would be awesome just to watch a city "wink-out".
-Qes

EDIT: Maybe make the populations of the cities 0 instead. And have it unable to grow. This way wonders would not be destroyed.

EDIT2: OR have a unit that is the "pilgram" It disbands a population point from the city, and it has a promoition that is "travel-beyond" or something. Maybe it can only do this on the coast. Basically, it disbands the unit, but gives you a point toward your goal, after X amount of population has left you win. However, this doesnt seem nearly so crippling as city-loss.

 

[Silverkiss]

LoL they could leave for "beyond the sea" xP

 

[Maian]

That's right. I had problems with it til i started breaking it down lol.
think J-Lo like Jennifer Lopez but reversed, then SAL like Salad, than FAR like distant. Ljo-sal-far.

If you consider the 'j' silent, it would sound like "loh-sal-far". Say that fast enough times and tell me what you hear

 

[Sureshot]

the devil has invaded elfland!!! ahh!!!!

i pronounce it
El-jo-sal-far.. im sure its wrong, but it helps me remember how to spell it lol

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Maybe "L'zho-sal-far"? With the "L" really just thrown in there.

 

[Silverkiss]

I pronounce it Lijosalvar.... =P

 

[Jono]

For some reason I've been pronouncing it Lo-jes-far

 

[Xuenay]

The problem with unique victory conditions is that they'll probably become a pain to track if you have very many players. Those of you who have played Illuminati know that even with a relatively small number of players - say, 4-5 - you'll constantly have to be checking how close the others are to their victory conditions so that they can be thwarted in time. Now imagine playing an FfH with, say, 12 other civilizations... there'd either have to be regular warnings of the other players getting closer to their goals (which'd probably get annoying quick) or a risk of you losing a game because you simply forgot to keep on eye on somebody. "Oh, I was just about to launch my big invasion but my game's over since I didn't realize the Khazad would accumulate 10 000 gold this turn" isn't very fun.

 

[QES]

For some reason I've been pronouncing it Lo-jes-far

The theme is one of light and dark. Ljos i think is deemed to be pronounsed without the L or as a combinations of sounds. THe J makes a [Ya] sound. LYos

Yos, Los combine the two. LYos. Yohs-al-fahr.
I think its norsk? Not sure.
-Qes

 

[QES]

The problem with unique victory conditions is that they'll probably become a pain to track if you have very many players. Those of you who have played Illuminati know that even with a relatively small number of players - say, 4-5 - you'll constantly have to be checking how close the others are to their victory conditions so that they can be thwarted in time. Now imagine playing an FfH with, say, 12 other civilizations... there'd either have to be regular warnings of the other players getting closer to their goals (which'd probably get annoying quick) or a risk of you losing a game because you simply forgot to keep on eye on somebody. "Oh, I was just about to launch my big invasion but my game's over since I didn't realize the Khazad would accumulate 10 000 gold this turn" isn't very fun.

This is a good point, but then whats a good fantasy without a bit of "what the heck is going on?" j/k

Seriously its a good point, but my theory was primairly one for specific races. I added more than merely the races because i wanted to show it was possible to consider more than just elves and dwarves. Primiarily however, the victory conditions should be set as standard, and these conditions should be the "Most-likely" met. The "alternative" victories acheivable would be accessable by a few, and they would be obvious for each race. For example, dwarves acumulation of gold should be obvious from the start, so its not that one should have to "check" to make sure the dwarves arnt wining, but instead just constantly (throughout the game) ****** their income. Same with the Elves, if they're leaving the realm, then constantly retarding their growth and populations would accomplish much the same goals. The idea is that while the "other" victories would be possible, they would be just as easily disrupted through the course of normal CIV events as normal victory conditions would be. War would disrupt both, unless they're on the winning side, just as in normal victory conditions. But instead of having to TAKE every last city, they could opt for another road. Instead of having to build that tower, they could horde gold. Where as the "standard" victory winners can just keep pluging on with what they're doing well at. (or not.) Also, I think it may be a good idea to eliminate the "tower" option for any race that is given an "alternative" victory method.
-Qes

 

[Jono]

The theme is one of light and dark. Ljos i think is deemed to be pronounsed without the L or as a combinations of sounds. THe J makes a [Ya] sound. LYos

Yos, Los combine the two. LYos. Yohs-al-fahr.
I think its norsk? Not sure.
-Qes

It did always look scandinavian...

 

[Chandrasekhar]

I don't think I'm really sold on the specific victory conditions. It might add flavor, yes, but not a whole lot of real gameplay value. I'd much prefer to be able to go for the Tower as elves, instead of having to learn all about some obscure mechanic.