Mob Rule: of Tree Huggery

[Sareln]

I think the best way to settle the argument as to whether the Ljosalfar are overpowered is to look at the results of all the multiplayer games where the Ljosalfar are used. Are the Ljosalfar winning a significantly higher proportion of games than other civs? If not then I don't think they are overpowered.

I think there is a way to set up AI vs. AI play. At the very least, could be useful to see how balanced overall the thing is. I know my computer is free when I'm taking classes most every weekday. If you could simulate the whole thing in 3 hour sessions people could just run games when their comp's are free and we could begin to gather a body of data to analyze.

At least, it feels more useful than sitting here shouting at each other. But maybe I just have a tech-school bias.

 

[Bad Player]

Yep if we could do that it would be useful - probably Chi square analysis of the data afterwards? However take into account that the computer ai may not take full advantage of features that humans would (e.g. mana nodes and using powerful archmages).

 

[dreiche2]

Quote and paste my comment where I claimed the Ljosalfar are "overpowered" and I will answer this question. Since such a quote does not exist, I will skip ahead.

bold is from me:

[...]
In that spirit I present yet another Nerf Crusade of them pesky elves.

I differ (I think) from Conventional Opinion in that I don't think the imbalance lies in teh endgame condisions, so much, as it lies in the very early game. Ljosalfar elves get to combine movement/exploration bonues [...]

Again, in a game featuring exponential growth rates, getting a fast start turns a small early advantage to a large end-game advatage. There is reason for concern. Elf's & could be said to be essentially the same as Control's. But the advantage is significant. The problem is, Elf can achieve this advantage without having had to sacrifice or . (And again, they do this without Fellowship of the Leaves effects.) The player has to make fewer choices, fewer tradeoffs. IMO this is a sign for balance concern.

Fortunatley for players who like the Elf end-game as it is now, the only required change might be to slow down development. If Elves can build Cottages/Farms/etc in Forsts, there is nothing saying they can do this quickly. Makes such structures take twice as long to build, and much of the early development surge can be attenuated.

The design team might also want to consider removing the Elf movement advantage in forests. That would also bring their development speed more in line with other civs, or at least give the Elf player more tradeoffs to consider, while retaining their combat advatage in Forests.

Questions or comments?

So, you are right, you did not say "overpowered".

My post was designed to address the claims made in this forum that there is no appreceable advantage to the Ljosalfar economy, as it exists now. My post was made with a very specific purpose: to address the economic issue.
[...]
Are there more considerations to a civ's overall effectiveness than just the economic? Of course. That's why I've not described the Ljosalfar as "overpowered".

Comon, your post was clearly made in the context of a general unbalance of the elves, or otherwise at least misleading. After all, why did you conclude that there is need to nerf them if you don't think they are overpowered?

If your *only* point was that they benefit from the elven cottages, then I think we agree, after all...

OK, I am imagining them. What tiles can the Infernals work differently than any other race? They could afford to break out their Workers to start building sooner. That can be approximated. What else do they have I should consider?

The Lunan is my ongoing civ. The Pirates Cove has interesting ramifacations for defense. But economic production? Extra in sea tiles doesn't get the opening-game civilization many s. I'll run a Lunan comparison too.

My point here was adressing the general imbalance issue, not the economic one. Though concerning which tiles the Infernals can work on differently: Those that are not constantly pillaged by the raging barbs, for example (just ask that Sarisin guy that constatly plays with raging barbs on ).

All I am saying is that the only conclusion you can draw from your argument is that elves have advantages compared to 'vanilla' control civs. And I think that's true for all other civs. But if that was your only point, (and not that there is a general imbalance and the elves need to be nerfed..), then it's all good.


Now, about looking a MP games or AI vs. AI.: I also think that if a civ is unbalanced right now is in part a separate issue for a human player or a AI controled one, especially as the AI isn't very good up to now in utilizing the civ specific advantages. (and if you really wanna get nitpicky, looking at results of MP games is not a 100% indication of inbalance, it could be that inexperienced players choose certain civs often because of flavour etc. but hey, it's never perfect...)

But, anyway, I am curious in both cases.... I think in the Rhye's mod you can let the AI play against each other until your civ enters the game, so maybe someone wants to check with them how that is done? I'd really like to see how the civs perfom in AI vs AI games...

 

[Gezeder]

I personally am of the opinion that in this particular case, AI's are unlikely to benefit nearly as much as a human player is regarding the Ljosalfar ability to build improvements inside forests -

Much of the unbalancing effect my partner and I have noticed in multiplayer games comes not just in the early game, but a little later on when the techs for magically planting forests (I admit, I forget which tech this is) comes about, at which point it's a matter of very little time before ALL the squares in their empire become forested.

This happens, barring some great military need, relativly quickly, as the canny human player heads straight for the tech to plant trees, bangs out a large amount of the units capable of planting trees, and reaps the rewards far quicker than an AI may stumble upon this tech/unit combo randomly.

This of course, is a problem for ALL ai's, regardless of civ. But it's my unqualified opinion that in this case, AI vs AI games are unlikely to show the true (In My Opinion) disproportionate powers of the Ljosalfar economically.

Gezeder

 

[Bad Player]

Yes this is a magic problem with ai as well but other civs have things ai's won't pick up on.

But I think we should look at future multiplayer games and see if Ljosalfar win significantly more than other civs to tell whether they are overpowered.

 

[Gezeder]

I agree, MP games are a very usefull test of balance.

Damn shame sample sizes are so small and there's so many other factors.

If we could just have a few thousand MP test games run with 8 or so equal players on the same settings, we'd be set eh?

Still, it's the best we've got really. Hopefully time will tell.

Gezeder

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

raging barbs means ive done something wrong? war (in a game based around conquest and building) means you've done something wrong? the elves are better than everyone else because the game is about never being at war, and losing means someone declared war on me? and i thought units cost maintenance? i guess excessive amounts of units to cover all the tiles surrounding your city doesn't detract from your commerce somehow, and their production cost is nonexistent for this imaginary scenario.

their terrible city defense is the lack in city defense in the city defense unit, called archers, so maybe thats where im getting the idea from.

and they don't have faster early game production or tech advancement than Lanun.
1 food is better than 1 production, according to you, and according to me, as they can get conquest for production of units and several civics/religions for building from commerce or population. the elves also don't have the reliability of non-pillageable commerce sources.
and unless im missing something, their cottages don't yield any more than normal cottages commercewise, so i fail to see how they can be claimed as having more commerce (and hence more tech advancement). no, all they're getting is +1 production in forest tiles when they build a cottage there, and they miss out on the production boosts from cutting down forests.

and they definately do have something the worry about, like being able to take over other civs cities with any reliability.

Lanun > Ljosalfar
the logick of yield math says so

Your example assumes teh Lunan have Sailing tech so they can build Lighthouses to get the 3rd / sea tile. You are assuming all those 300 Lighthouses have been built and are operating. You assume the Warfare tech is known, so the Conquest civic can be used. IOW you are looking at a point in time serveal score turns later on than am I. You might be looking at a point more than 100 turns later on in the game. By the time the Lunan have done all this, the Ljosalfar will already have done far more.

The Ljosalfar economic advantage kicks in when Education is learned. That's it: Elven Cottages are the only tool needed. Just start stuffing them in Forests and keep exploring (also easy for fast-moving Elves) and building new cities. By the time the Lunan have built their expensive Lighthouses and learned their Conquest civic, a Ljosalfar realm will already dwarf the Lunan.

That's the problem. Massively easy early expansion.

You are also assuming a 3rd / sea tile, which means in your example the Lunan have only one Leader with the Financial Trait. But the Lunan also have a Creative/Expansionistic leader. Your example does not compare apples, you've cherry-picked a Financial civilization. And even so we see the non-Financial Ljosalfar produce about as well as a Financial civ's does.

This is not a warning light in your mind? Some folks would tend to think a non-Financial civ wouldhave an inherent disadvantage compared to a Financial civ. But the Ljosalfar do not, and they achieve this without having to sacrifice or .

No tradeoffs = no decisions for the players to face = ho-hum game design. Players should face decisions during gameplay, is my rule of thumb.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

bold is from me:



So, you are right, you did not say "overpowered".



Comon, your post was clearly made in the context of a general unbalance of the elves, or otherwise at least misleading. After all, why did you conclude that there is need to nerf them if you don't think they are overpowered?

If your *only* point was that they benefit from the elven cottages, then I think we agree, after all...



My point here was adressing the general imbalance issue, not the economic one. Though concerning which tiles the Infernals can work on differently: Those that are not constantly pillaged by the raging barbs, for example (just ask that Sarisin guy that constatly plays with raging barbs on ).

All I am saying is that the only conclusion you can draw from your argument is that elves have advantages compared to 'vanilla' control civs. And I think that's true for all other civs. But if that was your only point, (and not that there is a general imbalance and the elves need to be nerfed..), then it's all good.


Now, about looking a MP games or AI vs. AI.: I also think that if a civ is unbalanced right now is in part a separate issue for a human player or a AI controled one, especially as the AI isn't very good up to now in utilizing the civ specific advantages. (and if you really wanna get nitpicky, looking at results of MP games is not a 100% indication of inbalance, it could be that inexperienced players choose certain civs often because of flavour etc. but hey, it's never perfect...)

But, anyway, I am curious in both cases.... I think in the Rhye's mod you can let the AI play against each other until your civ enters the game, so maybe someone wants to check with them how that is done? I'd really like to see how the civs perfom in AI vs AI games...

Imbalance is not the same word as overpowered. They clearly have different meaning. N'est-pas?

And yes, I did open with an attempt at humor.

Yes, I agree that my calculations of the elven economy can be used only to make decision regarding the elven economy. I understand there are some differences between national units. But I also understand that a realm of 12 cities producing 6 STR units will beat the snot out of a realm of 8 cities producing 7 STR units. And I also understand that if I grab a city site early, I can further stunt my opponents' growth.

These games are built on exponential growth curves. Anyone who claims that steepening an exponential growth curve will result in a negligible effect, simply does not appreceate the power of exponential growth.

I say again: I see smoke. I do not claim I see fire. But I refuse to pretend there is no smoke.

PS: Regarding the Infernal. I already mentioned that civs with the Barbarian trait can produce Workers earlier than can the other civs. This can be approximated in my calculations, no problem. But there is no difference in tile production once they are Improved, yes? I'll run the numbers assuming the Infernals start building Improvements several turns earlier.

I play Raging Barbs every game, and, as can be seen in this thread,

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=180324

certain tactics are available to limit their impact. In my ongoing game I think my capitol city was attacked twice. Of course, I selected my starting city tile with an eye on defense.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

I personally am of the opinion that in this particular case, AI's are unlikely to benefit nearly as much as a human player is regarding the Ljosalfar ability to build improvements inside forests -

Much of the unbalancing effect my partner and I have noticed in multiplayer games comes not just in the early game, but a little later on when the techs for magically planting forests (I admit, I forget which tech this is) comes about, at which point it's a matter of very little time before ALL the squares in their empire become forested.

This happens, barring some great military need, relativly quickly, as the canny human player heads straight for the tech to plant trees, bangs out a large amount of the units capable of planting trees, and reaps the rewards far quicker than an AI may stumble upon this tech/unit combo randomly.

This of course, is a problem for ALL ai's, regardless of civ. But it's my unqualified opinion that in this case, AI vs AI games are unlikely to show the true (In My Opinion) disproportionate powers of the Ljosalfar economically.

Gezeder

I suspect your suspicions are correct.

 

[dreiche2]

Imbalance is not the same word as overpowered. They clearly have different meaning. N'est-pas?

At this point the discussion gets pointless... I don't see you trying to adress my arguments, so this doesn't bring us anywhere. I think everything has been said by now, anyway.

I just conclude by repeating I find your reasoning flawed, but that's just my opinion. I'd really like to find out if the elves are overpowered, though.

And, at least for me, you don't have to rerun your calculations with the infernals having build some things earlier. I wrote their advantage would be that their improvements would not get pillaged so often, and that's probably to complicated to be included there, anyway (apart from the other things I'm not goint to repeat now..).

Btw, if there is general agreement that elves need to be nerved, your option of increasing the build time of improvements would be a possibility in my opinion. You could also restrict the movement bonus in forests to cultural borders, which would fit flavourwise IMO, but on the other hand that would just add another exeception mechanicwise to confuse the players...

 

[Sareln]

Yes this is a magic problem with ai as well but other civs have things ai's won't pick up on.

But I think we should look at future multiplayer games and see if Ljosalfar win significantly more than other civs to tell whether they are overpowered.

How does the AI work? Is it using a modular script, so that it's behavior can be changed by certain events? I'd be interesting if we had different strategies the AI would follow under certain religions... especially tech prioritization and unit priorities. Perhaps not doable though, I dunno.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

You are absolutely correct, dreiche2, in saying that we're comparing the elves to vanilla Civs. However, this really isn't too far off. Some Civs have some pretty big differences from vanilla Civs (Lanun, both dwarven Civs, barb Civs), but most are still pretty standard. The more normal Civs might have some differences (vamps for Calabim, firebows for Amurites, Abashi and Eurabatres), but these are all very specific, and further, they can mostly be used effectively with only a few strategies. The Ljosalfar are unique in that their ability to build in forests makes all strategies stronger. Getting and bonuses comparable to the Ljosalfar might, possibly, be alright for Civs with appropriate nerfs, but probably not for the Ljosalfar themselves.

I have a couple of reasons for saying this.
First, there is the flavor consideration. In what universe are the elves known for their ability to build massive infrastructures and train tons of soldiers? None, so far as I know. Building in forests seems alright at first glance, but the gameplay effect is bizarre for elves to have.
Second, the synergy with the Fellowship of leaves is insane. What Civ can get an extra , an extra , and an extra from a tile whose improvement is normally the best available to any Civ? Only the Ljosalfar. Certainly you agree that a self sustaining tile that gives three , four , +1/3 , and an extra is too much, right?

In any case, I can only see the building in forests thing working for the Ljosalfar if one of three things happens:
1) Forests give a different bonus to the Ljosalfar than they do to other Civs. For example, instead of getting an extra from a forest tile, they get perhaps half a , or maybe +1 (perhaps +2 if on a river) , or maybe both if it's needed.
2) The Ljosalfar can only build nerfed improvements in forests. We could say that they build a nerfed improvement in a forest, but normal improvements elsewhere. This would mean that they'd be like a vanilla Civ without forests, but an FfH caliber one when they had enough of them.
3) The Ljosalfar can only build semi-nerfed improvements everywhere. Basically, we give a smaller penalty to their improvements (no idea what exactly it would be), and they build these improvements everywhere. They'd still be stronger than the normal ones when built in a forest, but they'd be pretty weak otherwise (meaning that the Ljosalfar would rely on forests to be a contender).
Note: none of these really deal with the ancient forest issue. I'll leave it up to other minds to think up how to balance that.

If any of these are chosen, I'd also suggest lightening up the siege restriction on the elves. It would be more balancing if they either got weaker siege weapons, siege weapons that didn't deal collateral damage (but still bombard as normal), or even more expensive siege weapons. Comments?

 

[Silverkiss]

They could get some Treants or magical siege weapons...

 

[BCalchet]

I'd like to see how they worked out getting a instead of a from forests - thinking about it, tree-huggingly good elves wouldn't be chopping trees down and using them to build stuff, would they? (On the same line, perhaps adding some in nearby cities for clearing a forest might be a good idea.)

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

Well, in the attempt to back up my yap, I just ran the first 200 turns of a Jonas-led Clan of Embers, to get a feel for how well a Barbaran trait civilization expands in the early game. I made sure the map featured some Flood Plain, as I want to compare the various civs with with solid starting areas. The Orcs did great. They watched the Orthus/Basium war from teh peanut gallery, while enjoying about as smooth an early development as could be hoped for.

This little excercize taught me quite a bit. The cottage is a very powerful improvement. The Orcs did not learn Mining until turn 200 exactly, and only then began Agriculture. On turn 189 they discovered Fellowship of the Leaves, despite the research handicaps to the Barbarian trait. (Zero begining techs known, -10% to R&D (which is functionally a 20% penalty.) They have cottages atop marble deposits and amongst cows. Rice? Meet Cottage. A lot of these will be paved over later, when the correct tech is learned. But for the early game, why not get some extra commerce from those tiles? Who needs farms, when your cities are already happiness-capped?

It's too late to go into more detail. But Now to run similar games with Lunan, Ljosalfar, Khazad, and a middle of the road civ. Then compare the aggregate results in the game, and with the projections in my estimator spreadsheet.

It's become a very interesting puzzle. I wonder how it will turn out?

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

At this point the discussion gets pointless... I don't see you trying to adress my arguments, so this doesn't bring us anywhere. I think everything has been said by now, anyway.

I just conclude by repeating I find your reasoning flawed, but that's just my opinion. I'd really like to find out if the elves are overpowered, though.

And, at least for me, you don't have to rerun your calculations with the infernals having build some things earlier. I wrote their advantage would be that their improvements would not get pillaged so often, and that's probably to complicated to be included there, anyway (apart from the other things I'm not goint to repeat now..).

Btw, if there is general agreement that elves need to be nerved, your option of increasing the build time of improvements would be a possibility in my opinion. You could also restrict the movement bonus in forests to cultural borders, which would fit flavourwise IMO, but on the other hand that would just add another exeception mechanicwise to confuse the players...

I'm sorry you feel frustrated, but I do acknowledge your point. You want to consider combat aspects along with economic aspects. Fine. But myself, personaly, have chosen to break the problem up into manageable chunks. I've become interested in the economic numbers, and now I am studying them. There is no rule that states I cannot focus on economic issues.

And once again, you've sort of come along into the middle of the discussion. It's perfectly valid to mention that a strong economy combined with a limited military can result in a balance overall position. It is quite another thing to insist the strong economy is an average economy. Some people deny that the elves have any economic advatages worth mention. My posts are also intended to debate this asseration.

I didn't re-run the calculations with the Infernals, but I did play 200 turns at Epic speed with the Orcs, the Infernals being unplayable. Re-running the numbers will be a snap after that. But I did learn a lot about runing a civ with the Barbarian trait by doing so.

I will run similar game starts with other civs, post results and in-game notes. Just not this exact second.

 

[Gezeder]

Good stuff Unser,

Let us know how more tests go.

Gezeder

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

You are absolutely correct, dreiche2, in saying that we're comparing the elves to vanilla Civs. However, this really isn't too far off. Some Civs have some pretty big differences from vanilla Civs (Lanun, both dwarven Civs, barb Civs), but most are still pretty standard. The more normal Civs might have some differences (vamps for Calabim, firebows for Amurites, Abashi and Eurabatres), but these are all very specific, and further, they can mostly be used effectively with only a few strategies. The Ljosalfar are unique in that their ability to build in forests makes all strategies stronger. Getting and bonuses comparable to the Ljosalfar might, possibly, be alright for Civs with appropriate nerfs, but probably not for the Ljosalfar themselves.

I have a couple of reasons for saying this.
First, there is the flavor consideration. In what universe are the elves known for their ability to build massive infrastructures and train tons of soldiers? None, so far as I know. Building in forests seems alright at first glance, but the gameplay effect is bizarre for elves to have.
Second, the synergy with the Fellowship of leaves is insane. What Civ can get an extra , an extra , and an extra from a tile whose improvement is normally the best available to any Civ? Only the Ljosalfar. Certainly you agree that a self sustaining tile that gives three , four , +1/3 , and an extra is too much, right?

In any case, I can only see the building in forests thing working for the Ljosalfar if one of three things happens:
1) Forests give a different bonus to the Ljosalfar than they do to other Civs. For example, instead of getting an extra from a forest tile, they get perhaps half a , or maybe +1 (perhaps +2 if on a river) , or maybe both if it's needed.
2) The Ljosalfar can only build nerfed improvements in forests. We could say that they build a nerfed improvement in a forest, but normal improvements elsewhere. This would mean that they'd be like a vanilla Civ without forests, but an FfH caliber one when they had enough of them.
3) The Ljosalfar can only build semi-nerfed improvements everywhere. Basically, we give a smaller penalty to their improvements (no idea what exactly it would be), and they build these improvements everywhere. They'd still be stronger than the normal ones when built in a forest, but they'd be pretty weak otherwise (meaning that the Ljosalfar would rely on forests to be a contender).
Note: none of these really deal with the ancient forest issue. I'll leave it up to other minds to think up how to balance that.

If any of these are chosen, I'd also suggest lightening up the siege restriction on the elves. It would be more balancing if they either got weaker siege weapons, siege weapons that didn't deal collateral damage (but still bombard as normal), or even more expensive siege weapons. Comments?

You write great posts.

regarding the siege issue ... I never hear magic mentioned. I almost never build them. (siege units) Fireballs and especially Plagues and conjured critters are much more mobile and you don't have to build a new unit every time you use one.

Of course, I think if we did away with the mid/end game doledrums, we'd perhaps see more variety of units make it to combat. You might, for example, need siege units NOW, not having the luxury of time for your Adepts to experience-up. :shrug:

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

I'd like to see how they worked out getting a instead of a from forests - thinking about it, tree-huggingly good elves wouldn't be chopping trees down and using them to build stuff, would they? (On the same line, perhaps adding some in nearby cities for clearing a forest might be a good idea.)

Can you taste the flava?

And it might actually work out well. It's using the noodle.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

Good stuff Unser,

Let us know how more tests go.

Gezeder

Thanks Gezeder. I know I come across as a but it's too late for me to change that. Glad I haven't pissod off EVERYONE .. yet.