MOD PREVIEW: Improved Civ 3

SK138

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I've decided to try and make a mod for Civ 3 to really improve it. I plan to try and use all the best units available here and to change a lot of the rules.

Download version .1 of the Improved Civ 3 Mod at http://www.cdgroup.org/upload/tbs/civ3/ic3/Improved_Civ_3_Mod.zip
It is about 45 megs, 65 unzipped. The changes in this version are posted later in this thread.

Here are a bunch of ideas I have so far, tell me what you think and if some aren't possible:

-German Rifleman - UU
-Galleys wheeled so they can't cross oceans to stop ancient Age of Expansion
-Slow down times and tech research
-Have Ironclads come later
-Possibly more resources - like bronze
-English Longbowman - UU
-Other civs have Crossbowman instead of Longbowman
-Possibly a recon vehicle (similar to a humvee) to maybe make calvary obselete.
-New UU for Iroquois
-Cheaper or improved Musketeer
-Cheaper Musketman
-More expensive calvary
-New foot unit in between Longbowmen, Medieval Infantry and Guerilla (Grenadier)
-Maybe some other unit costs changes similar to what Mojotronica talks about in his threads
-Make the Guerilla a little more powerful
-Diversify modern infantry a little more
-Better helicopters
-Better and longer Age of Sail and Expansion
-New Unit: Pirate, similar to a Privateer but works on land and has amphibious attack, if possible, make it be able to ride in a privateer but not other units
-Tons of flavor units and possibly two or more UU's for each civ
-New civs
-Uprgrade for Explorer
-Possibly new improvements and wonders
-Increased movement of ships
-Lethal bombardment for more units
-Offensive musket infantry unit to go along with calvary (Grenadier or Fusilier)
-If possible, maybe shorten the time to change governments
-More governments
-Maybe make mountains impassable, at least for awhile or for more units with the exception of an explorer
-Aegis Cruisers with the ability to fire cruise missiles
-Only allow fighters to go on carriers (with the exception of the F-117 Stealth Fighter)
-Maybe a new air unit bomber that is smaller and can go on carriers, it would have a lower bombardment rating then a regular bomber, but better then a fighter
-Possibly a nuclear bomb unit that must be dropped from a bomber
-Bigger bombers, like B-29 or more modern B-52 that have larger bombardment ratings and the ability to carry a nuclear bomb
-Stronger infantry units so calvary and tanks aren't the main attack force throughout the game
-Maybe some units in between Musketman and Infantry other then the rifleman
-Maybe a slinger unit
-More techs (maybe some techs that don't really lead to anything but a new unit type) and some techs just to slow the game so certain units will be used longer ("cushion techs")
-Something similar to Kryten's idea:
Quoted from a post by Kryten:
"I like to think of the Civ3 unit (musketman) as being more of an 'Harquebusier' (a soldier with an early type of gun supported by a forked post).
So you have the following:-
*"Harquebusier" = 17th century (no bayonets, so needs Pikemen for defence).
*"Fusilier" = 18th century (with bayonets and tricorne hats).
*"Napoleonic Infantry" = early 19th century (large conscripted armies)."
-Something similar to Mojotronica's idea of having Calvary uprgrade to a Panzer tank to make the German UU a little better
-Possibly change the AI or certain Civs (Zulus, Iroquois) the way Paul Sanders did. He made it so they wouldn't build cultural improvements or workers making them more realistic (I am not sure I like this too much, but I wanted to mention it anyway)
-Allow forests to be mined so the AI doesn't chop them all down
-Maybe the addition of religious units (monks, priests), I am not a very big fan of this idea but someone could convince me otherwise
-Possibly a barbarian boat with a bombardment rating so they don't just move harmlessly up and down your coast
-Make it possible for one infantry unit to defeat another
-Move republic tech to where the democracy tech is and have the democracy tech come later in the game
-Maybe raise bombardment rates on units and make them more expensive - this way you won't need so many, but at the same time, it will be hard to build too many
-Have samurai UU replace Medieval Infantry instead of the knight
-Add a mounted samurai unit
-Make Pikemen come after knights
-Have cannons come before musketmen
-New Persian UU instead of the immortals (According to Kryten and his sources, they were only around for about 50 years)
-Changing name of coliseum to stadium and possibly making The Roman Coliseum a wonder
-Unit in between catapult and cannon (Aaglo's bombard cannon would probably fit in perfect)
-YOUR IDEAS HERE

Tell me what you think and if you would like to help!

Right now I am looking for someone to maybe remodel the tech tree to fit some of the ideas in that list like "cushion techs" and maybe also make some new icons for the new techs.

Also, I want someone to help come up with new governments that could be implemented into the game.

I want someone that like to work with unit stats and ratings to get the best possible combinations for attack, defense, movement, costs, etc...

Someone to maybe come up with and add new improvements and wonders to the game.

Someone to create new civs and leaders to the game.

Anyone who can come up with new ideas for this mod to make it more realistic and fun.

Originally I was going to work on this myself, but now I am going to try and put a ton of new things in and any help I can get would be appreciated.
 
Most people have already modified Civ3 to be the way they like it! I am just waiting for my copy of PtW to arrive and then I will mod my game to how I want it!

BUT having said that, there are of course people who cant or just cant be bother doing all the modifing themselves and would really appreciate your mod! So, I do wish you all the best with your mod!
 
Well one thing Im not to sure is that good was the moving of Republic to Democracy. Republic is and ancient form of government dating back before Rome. For that matter so is Democracy and the concept of having Kings.
Communism and Socialism are the only new leadership ideas to be invented since the time of Rome.

In fact many countries today use their own brand of Socialism rather than Democracy. Even the USA isn't truly a democracy its a Republic. So personally I think if any changes to the governments are made it should be that Democracy be some thing other than the ultimate government for the game.

O and good ideas :)

Edit:

Since you asked for new governments here are two I have added into some of my games:
Socialism (love this one)
Corprate Government (fictional)
Confederacy (just for fun not a true government but I like the sound of it)
 
Go here for a document on Naval Aircraft.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=56993

scroll to post 5.

Howabout a new world map? (And i will help you find and prepare one)

Civs that could help, or are wanted

Incas and Mayas: To slow down the south america monoply that the astecs have.

Nubians and Bantu: Lots of civvers want more africian civs.

Souix and Eskimos: Souix to slow down the north americian monoply that america has, and lots of civvers want Native amercian civs.

Carriers should have a new graphic, have no radar, and carry 4 units. They should upgrade to jump carriers, they have radar, and carry 6 units.

Amercians should get the Nimitz-Class instead of the jump carrier, carring 9 units.

The republic tech should be renamed Empires, it would give the goverment Imperialism. it should be romman's favorite goverment. Democracy should be totaly redone, and be avilable at writing. At the "Later Tech" you mentioned, There should be Democratic Republic, a cross between the new democracy, and republic. republic should go at ld democracy tech. also, Facsism should be added. Communism should be reworked to be Marxism, and there should be a cross between Marxism and Imperialism, Soviet Socalism. There should also be a cross between Monarch and Fascism, Milatary Dictatorship.
 
Originally posted by Hunter

In fact many countries today use their own brand of Socialism rather than Democracy. Even the USA isn't truly a democracy its a Republic. So personally I think if any changes to the governments are made it should be that Democracy be some thing other than the ultimate government for the game.

Hi Hunter,

Mostly agreed, with 2 comments --

1. Re: Socialism, we run up against the persistently annoying fact that Civ3 attempts (poorly!) to subsume economic models within political ones. If "socialism" is loosely described as the state providing a significant if not comprehensive system of social services (education, healthcare & whatnot) then the definition has nothing at all to do with "democratic" rights or their absence. The best we can hope for is to somehow model, e.g., "Socialist Democracy" as meaningfully different than a cutthroat "pure" capitalist democracy.

2. "Republic" vs. "Democracy" is by now a well-honed theme of mine. There are no clear-cut "dictionary" differentiations between the two -- but I have arrived at a definition which I believe encompasses every "Republic" (as opposed to "Democracy" -- bear with me here :) ) -- A Republic is a form of government wherein "democratic" rights are typically apportioned to property owning males of the dominant ethnic class. So "Republic" + "Slave Emancipation" + "Women's Rights" = Democracy. IMHO, "Democracy" should be dropped as a Government tyupe and Emancipation and Women's Rights should be minor wonders with the understanding that this combination represents "democracy" as we commonly understand the term today.

-Oz
 
Originally posted by Hunter

Edit:

Since you asked for new governments here are two I have added into some of my games:
(...)
Corporate Government (fictional)
Confederacy (just for fun not a true government but I like the sound of it)

Ah, an addendum based upon an edit! :) --

1. A mental excercise: define the nature of "corporate government" and then see how many STRUCTURAL differences you can find between your definition and the Good Ol' USA today.

2. Historically there are several examples of "Confederacies", the most famous of course being the CSA. Based upon my model above for Republic/Democracy, a "Confederacy" might be akin to the Republic, yet unable to build the "Emancipation" and "Women's Rights" minor wonders.

-Oz
 
Originally posted by andrew510

The republic tech should be renamed Empires, it would give the goverment Imperialism. it should be romman's favorite goverment.

That field in the editor is misleading -- it refers not to the Civ-in-question's preferred government type but rather to the type of government it most favorably reacts to other Civs having.

Facsism should be added. Communism should be reworked to be Marxism, and there should be a cross between Marxism and Imperialism, Soviet Socalism. There should also be a cross between Monarch and Fascism, Milatary Dictatorship. [/B]

1. Note that no "pure" Marxist government has ever been formed that's lasted more than a weekend or so.

2. What differentiates "military dictatorship" from "fascism"?

-Oz
 
Originally posted by ozymandias


1. A mental excercise: define the nature of "corporate government" and then see how many STRUCTURAL differences you can find between your definition and the Good Ol' USA today.


:lol: indeed

IMO the game attempts to place to much importance on Governments since their have been good leaders of all government types. Yes I personally believe in a "Democratic Socialism" , however some times a nation can do well even under a dictator. Yes there should be differences in worker efficiency and military support but as for science well... Hitler was a dictator and his nation during his leadership was the most advanced in the world (this is not support for that son of a $%&@ that Hitler was just a statement about tech). So governments should have little to do with science, that's why you build Libraries and Labs or spend more on scientific research.

O and good ideas Oz :)
 
Originally posted by Hunter
Well one thing Im not to sure is that good was the moving of Republic to Democracy.

Just a few thoughts Hunter..... :)

Game Play Reasons For Moving The Republic
--------------------------------------------
As mrtn mentioned in Mojotronica’s “Changing the Existing Rules” thread, removing the Republic from the Ancient period greatly helps to slow down the tech race to something more realistic.
I’m sure we have all thought it a bit ‘odd’ when tanks become available at the end of the Middle Ages. And I for one hate it when my ancient units become obsolete and have to be upgraded before I even get the chance to use them fully!
Moving the Republic is an easy way of fixing this, because it slows research.
This alone is good enough reason for moving it….but let’s now look at the historical reasons.

Historical Reasons For Moving The Republic
-------------------------------------------
Why does everybody automatically assume that a Republic is superior to a Monarchy.
Is it because a game called Civ3 says it is?
Let’s look at the historical facts.
In 509BC the city of Rome threw off their Etruscan overlords and formed a highly structured representative government called a Republic. This gave their citizens, both rich and poor, more individual freedom and confidence, what we today call ‘enterprising free will’. This made her superior to her neighbours, and allowed Rome to expand and dominate.
But the Roman Republic was only designed to govern A SINGLE CITY.
By the 1st century BC, what with corruption, self-seeking politicians, bribery, riots at elections, and all manner of political chicanery, the system fell apart and Rome ended up under the dictatorship of the emperors.
The Roman Republic, meant for ruling a single city, was just not capable of ruling a far flung empire.
Also, EVERY civilization in the world, ALL of them, was a Monarchy of some sort or another in the Dark Ages and the early Medieval period (indeed, how can you have a feudal society with Knights under a representative Republican government? The two are the complete opposite of each other!).

What Government Should Greece Have?
---------------------------------------
Athens, as we all know, was an early form of Democracy.
But it too was only designed to rule a single city. And although the city-state of Athens had this representative form of government, the other city-states of Greece such as Sparta, Argos, Corinth, Thebes, and so on, certainly did not.
If anything, Athenian Democracy should be some sort of World Wonder that only affects a single city….like the way the Colossus & Shakespeare’s Theatre only affects the city it is build in.

Conclusion
-----------
I think that the Republic should be removed from the Ancient Period because it helps game play by slowing down research, and because everyone was a Monarchy at the start of the Middle Ages.
As for the temporary Roman Republican period, I think that the Roman ‘Golden Age’, generated by the success of her Legions, can represent this.
(Golden Ages last for 20 turns. At 20 years a turn, this equals 400 years.
509BC to 91BC, the period from the birth of the Roman Republic to the start of the Civil Wars is 418 years….
….seems about right to me. :D )

I’d much rather have 31 civs right and one half wrong than 31 wrong and one half right! :lol:
 
Originally posted by Kryten


I’d much rather have 31 civs right and one half wrong than 31 wrong and one half right! :lol:

Well put :)

Would there be any way to decrease the scientific benefits received by using Republic as a government?
 
Originally posted by Hunter


Well put :)

Would there be any way to decrease the scientific benefits received by using Republic as a government?
you can higher coruption or make units more expencive, that way you need a higher tax so you would have to set the science down.
 
Originally posted by ozymandias


That field in the editor is misleading -- it refers not to the Civ-in-question's preferred government type but rather to the type of government it most favorably reacts to other Civs having.



1. Note that no "pure" Marxist government has ever been formed that's lasted more than a weekend or so.

2. What differentiates "military dictatorship" from "fascism"?

-Oz

Milatary Dictatorship is Iraq/Pakistan/Napolonic France, While Fascism is Nazi Germany/Spain/Fascist Italy.
 
Originally posted by andrew510


Milatary Dictatorship is Iraq/Pakistan/Napolonic France, While Fascism is Nazi Germany/Spain/Fascist Italy.

I mean in game terms -- how would these be structured (I know, I know, there are all sorts of ways people have modelled, e.g., Fascism, most of which I believe are incorrect, even within the limited scope of Civ) viz. Corruption & Waste etc. -- Regardless, structurally I would argue that, e.g., Pakistan and Franco's Spain are closer to one another than, say, the latter was to Nazi Germany. Both of the former have/had less direct government direction of the economy, less direct appeal to the (to just use "shorthand") the collective unconscious (the Nuremburg Rallies etc.), and arguments can be made against grouping them by their succeptibility to War Weariness.

Just Curious :)

-Oz
 
This is good stuff on the governments, I really like Kryten's reasons for moving republic and democracy, thats why I had it in one of the ideas for the mod.

Would anyone be interested in getting all the stats for each of the mentioned governments in this thread (facism, socialism, soviet socialism, corporate, marxism, etc...) and also rework the governments already in the game using the editor?

By the way, I started working a little bit on the mod last night (haven't done too much yet) but I was wondering if there is a limit to how many new units could be put in the game and what that limit is?
 
Originally posted by Hunter
Would there be any way to decrease the scientific benefits received by using Republic as a government?

Yes. :)

If you really, really wanted to, you could simply change the names, so that what is now called a 'Monarchy' becomes a 'Republic', and visa versa, so that the best type of government to have at the end of the Ancient period is a renamed 'Monarchy' (with all the benefits of its original name, Republic).
This fits historically, but there is still the problem of the rapid tech rate.

However, the biggest problem with Civ3 is....IF becomes WILL.

IF a civ can change to any type of government, then it WILL.
Do we really want the Celts/Persians/Egyptians/Japanese/Germans/etc to go through a 'Republican' government before they upgrade to a better 'Monarchy' as they enter the Middle Ages?
The fact is, the 'Republic' is as unique to the Romans as Legions are!
(We wouldn't expect any other civ to have Legions.....so why do we expect that other civs can have a 'Republican' government?)

Now, it would be really nice if we could restrict governments, so that only Rome could be a Republic, even if it is not as good as the latter Monarchy for game play reasons (or, to follow on from ozymandias, if we could restrict 'Fascism' to certain civs).
But this this not possible....at least at the moment.

But are we not all getting tied up with NAMES?
Something I liked to do in Civ1 & 2 was to change 'Communism' to 'Totalitarianism', so that Germany/Italy/Spain/Russsia/China/Japan/etc could all have the same government.
(In WW2 they were all dictatorships, their citizens have no rights, and they all have secret police......they seem the same to me)

Just remember....in Civ3, ANY civ can have ANY goverment....
 
I have increased the total turns in the game from 540 to 1000 which is the maximum allowed by the editor. Now I just need to find good combinations for how many years pass for each turn. If you don't understand what I mean, go to the PTW editor and look at the scenario properties. If you know a good combination, please tell me.
 
I was just thinking about the artillery units and I've decided to make the Radar Artillery have a defense of 1 instead of 0 so it will be destroyed when attacked instead of captured. It seems to me this unit would be destroyed in real life instead of being captured, what do you think?
 
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