Modern and near-future politics with blocs and unions

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Feb 21, 2004
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When there's talk about the future it's almost always about new techs, units or spacethings. I don't care much for any of those things, but I would like to see improvement in diplomacy/negotiation or whatever that is that is going to handle the political connections of the world in the near future.

There's been suggestions regarding vassalage and similar things but I hope Firaxis implements connections between civs that make it possible to get some resemblens to Soviet Union, EU and possible near future bloc scenarios. To, as the leader of France or Germany, become the leader of EU and dictate the trading to China or a Middle-east coalition :goodjob: .

Not much happens to the diplomacy after the Industrial age, does it? and if there's anything I would like that Firaxis should speculate in regarding the near future it's the political view of the world.
It probably would make the endgame a lot more exciting if smaller civs could clog together to challenge greater ones.

Maybe this falls under the general improvement of diplomacy but I think it deserves to be brought up specifically...

Yes/No?
 
There are so few nations in civworlds that I think EU style things are useless and damage the amont of fun to be had. Also it seems that the unions are keeping military and forgein policy seperate so I'm not sure what how this would affect the game.
 
I beg to differ. The modern game is pretty unfun as is. By this point, you know who the winner is. And if you don't know who the winner is, you know who it could be, and who it can't be -- it's a question of whether the one nation in the lead will be able to conquer that last city in time. The grudges no longer apply and bitter enemies unite for no reason. Best of friends backstab each other with the same amount of randomness. And railroads bring death to your neighbor's doorstep within a single turn. Settlement and expansion has been done since the tail end of the middle ages, which means that the most intense strategy of the game really only applied for the first half.

There is no suspense, no challenge, no real decisions. It becomes a hail mary. A dash for the end zone. It's basically a race to the finish, with everybody going through the motions, hoping that they laid the a good foundation in the first two ages to give them a springboard to victory.

Yes, the modern game is one of the biggest problems I have with Civ.

Not to say that Loppan Torkel solves all those problems. But his heart is in the right place, and has some good ideas to make the modern game meaningful. What's going to make it challenging is if a new dimension emerges for the players to leverage and manipulate. A "new frontier" for the players to compete over. (And air space isn't the new frontier we need. It's good, but not sufficient in the least.)
 
I agree with dh. Anthing to keep the game going in the modern age would be great. I think it would be interesting to join an organization and then loose the election. Where would the AI leader take your civ?
 
dh_epic said:
The modern game is pretty unfun as is.

Yes, the modern game is one of the biggest problems I have with Civ.

Sadly true. Do you think the game developers have, um, noticed this little aspect of Civ III by now and are working hard to dramatically rectify the problem?

You know what I wonder? The game testers...don't they NOTICE these things when they play 50 games during development? "Hey, boss, I'm finding that the game really gets boring, predictable and full of micromanagement after the industrial era. We should do something to improve this."

Oh, to be a fly on the wall at Civ development headquarters. How do these things happen?
 
I think part of the problem was that they implemented a game that's great at the beginning, slows down in the middle, and is absolutely wretched in the end... and yet, I find myself playing through it anyway. I don't know how Civ does it, but it's when I become self conscious of it that I'm finally able to pry myself away. But I have a strong stomach for tedium, so it's pretty easy for me to keep micromanaging away.

I'm a bit pessimistic about what the team is working on. Because, unfortunately, I think the new "religion" feature really only has a huge payoff in the middle ages. And the middle ages is already a solid part of the game!

I think that in order to answer the question "how do you make the modern game interesting" you need to ask yourself "what's been so interesting in the past 50-60 years, in the post WW2 era?" I can think of LOTS. And few of them can be modelled in a Civ 3 scenario as is. The game needs new concepts to describe these situations.

I pose that as a mini-poll:

What have been some of the most interesting events on the international stage in the past 50-60 years, after WW2?
 
One problem with spicing up the modern era is that it's supposed to be the endgame where you hopefully are winning, probably by superior might as the largest civ which is what makes the micromanagement a drag.

With the introduction of unions and bloc-politics, it would be less benefical to expand by war to become a gigantic civ. Power could come through diplomacy by taking the leadership in a union instead, although it might not be as powerful it would not have a reputation that'd been hurt by wars as much. Another thing would that would make one-civ-superpower less benefical is that trading and diplomacy would be harder against a union than a number of smaller civs that are independant.

The problem with making this game too realistic in the modern era is that noone is winning in the realworld and I'd guess most gamers in the end play to win. So if Firaxis stop the snowball-effect ( http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=104621 ) to make it more realistic, they probably need to come up with some new victory conditions also...

As for - "What have been some of the most interesting events on the international stage in the past 50-60 years, after WW2?" - I'd say the Middle-east conflicts between Israel and the Islamic states and the Coldwar are some of the most important events - One religious war and one idealistic war, so I hope Firaxis does a good job implementing these features.
 
dh_epic said:
I pose that as a mini-poll:

What have been some of the most interesting events on the international stage in the past 50-60 years, after WW2?

dh, definately do the poll, it will be fun.
I will add: Peace Keeping, the Fall of Communism, and the WTO/Free trade, to Loppan's (probably winning) suggestions.
 
Great, great examples guys.

SCENARIO ONE: ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE EAST

In 50+ years, you can count the amount of actual war between these states in mere days. There are many more factors that are involved in this conflict, making it as interesting as it is.

Displaced Culture: There's another thread where I'm talking about this... but the idea is for a culture to exist without a state. For there to be Jewish culture floating around in the middle east, but no Jewish state. For there to be Palestinean culture floating around in the middle east, but no Palestinean state. You simply cannot model the scenario without these. If you create a city where the Palestineans are in control, then you've already resolved a key element in the conflict!

Terrorism: You can't model the conflict without terrorism. Less so state sponsored terrorism than terrorism from non-state actors. In the 1930s and 1940s, before the creation of Israel, Zionists bombed cafes and restaurants. In the past 50 years, without the creation of a Palestinean state, the Palestineans also committed many acts of terror against Israeli citizens. Terrorism was a symptom of a problem, and also the problem itself. Would the creation of a state reduce the violence? To model this scenario with state-controlled official army units, that would make this into a simple conquest. If the units can simply conquer territory, then you can easily eliminate the problem once and for all by destroying the units, and taking the territory back!

More Challenges to Nationalism: The idea that it was Israel against the rest of the Middle East would give too much credit to the idea of Arab unity. There were some kings who wanted to rule over the entire Arab world. This was the classical idea of Imperialism, where everyone pledges allegiance to a King or Emperor, who rules over a lot of people who might have little in common except their King. This was the Ottoman Empire. It crumbled, leaving many people who couldn't stand each other in its ashes. Some of them sought to re-create an imperialism. In some cases, there are still leaders in the Middle East who rule over lands with very little sense of National Identity, but only a sense of pledging allegiance to a dynasty, like the House of Saud. Imperialism is the opposite of Nationalism, to a large degree.

There was also the emergence of Arab Nationalism, which never really caught on. They didn't care about religion, and wanted to keep it out of their rule as much as possible, to forge greater unities even with Syrian and Lebanese Christians, and secularists all around. They faced competition with kings and emperors who would rather carve off a piece of the Near East for themselves and keep all the profits.

And then, of course, there was Pan-Islamism, which sought to forge an international unity with Muslims as far East as Pakistan and Indonesia, often to the exclusion of secularists, liberals, Christians and Jews all over these regions. This doesn't even begin to describe the difficulties between Sunnis and Shi'ites.

These three interests with their strengths and weaknesses feuded against one another. Egos of kings raged against those trying to forge a greater unity. Arab Nationalists crushed coups from religious zealots and greedy demagogues. And Islamists tore the region apart, challenging every leader to hold people of many denominations and sects together.

Sometimes Israel was the least of their enemies. Ultimately, they had to find ways to push the various political movements and ideologies in their countries. To allow them to do a sudden government shift would make the challenge way too easy, and totally imbalance the scenario against Israel!!

Vassallage: The Suez Canal crisis was a key moment in the history of this war. And you cannot model it without the idea of having an Egypt that was partially occupied by the British. For an Arabist like Nasser in Egypt, the Suez Canal was a symbol of colonial humiliation, hundreds of years of oppression by the Empire. For the British, the West, and Israel, the Suez Canal was a gateway to the other side of the world, and if Egypt were to control it themselves, it could be used to exclude and even assault Israel or others. Egypt decided to Nationalize the Canal, and the **** hit the fan, leading to another slew of conflict. And, of course, the conflict wasn't to conquer Egypt, but merely to resume the foreign occupation of the Canal, a kind of colonialism. To let the British outright conquer Egypt would be absolutely wrong. They couldn't merely conquer a city, they'd have to experience a kind of vassallage of the canal region.

Canals: Yep, if you're going to talk about the Suez Canal, you might as well build it. Not as a wonder, but as a real living breathing geographical structure.

-----

Which ties into the next topic I want to take up. International interests wanted to balance the politics of the region so violence wouldn't escalate between Israel and the rest of the Near East. But moreover, the USSR wanted to support communist parties in Iraq and Egypt. A few Arab Nationalists managed to convince the Western interests that the best way to fight communism was to fuel Arab Nationalism. All while Western interests wanted to ensure Israel's security, and keep the USSR out. All while many middle eastern interests wanted to maintain independence and non-alignment. Of course, modelling the cold war is an issue in itself, but is worth discussing. I hope to take that up next time.

But you can already see, in order to make the modern age more interesting, you need new conceptual frameworks to keep the game full of those historical quirks.
 
As for "blocs" or "treaty organizations"---I'd love to see those in several dimensions----trade, military, and culture.
Realistically, the MPP of WWI-era covers most of it, but with "International Trade" we should get Multi-Party Trade Organizations, and such.

The thing is that most of the relationships are more complex than as seen by the public, so the one-on-one granular approach currently, is probably for the best. If you want one you have to use your diplomatic skill.

Probably we should get some "bonus" better than 'de-facto' for being able to negotiate and maintain a multi-party agreement for some time. It'd probably cripple the AI to make it your dupe just for you giving it good MPP's for say 60 turns, but some kind of counter-balance to the AI's coniving "Enemy of my Enemy politics. Maybe a "PublicOpinon" just like the old "Senate" from earlier CIVs that makes it harder to wage war on CIVs that you've had and have current good relations with, short of acts of war.
But probably being part of a multi-party organization should be worth some general prestige in all negotiations with any other CIV.


Loppan Torkel
Warlord

Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 146

Modern and near-future politics with blocs and unions
When there's talk about the future it's almost always about new techs, units or spacethings. I don't care much for any of those things, but I would like to see improvement in diplomacy/negotiation or whatever that is that is going to handle the political connections of the world in the near future.

There's been suggestions regarding vassalage and similar things but I hope Firaxis implements connections between civs that make it possible to get some resemblens to Soviet Union, EU and possible near future bloc scenarios. To, as the leader of France or Germany, become the leader of EU and dictate the trading to China or a Middle-east coalition .

Not much happens to the diplomacy after the Industrial age, does it? and if there's anything I would like that Firaxis should speculate in regarding the near future it's the political view of the world.
It probably would make the endgame a lot more exciting if smaller civs could clog together to challenge greater ones.

Maybe this falls under the general improvement of diplomacy but I think it deserves to be brought up specifically...

Yes/No?
 
In last 50-60 years things like immigration, sport and pop art events, terrorism, asiatic tigers, financial and economic crisis, energy crisis, la revenche de Dieux, multinational investments.
to the scenario
Displaced Culture: You could have guerilla in sense of they belong to jewesh civ but this civ have no owner city and therefore no state, but have citizens in several cities. It´s like a civ who cities are totally conquered but remains jewesh citizens in the conquered cities. And this citizens could become a certain among of guerillas if disbanded. The same applies to palestines
Terrorism: The jewesh in US and Europe supporting the guerilla jewesh in palestine and the Arabs countries or Iran supporting the palestines guerilla.
 
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