MODMODDERS: Unique Units with Drawbacks.

[ridjack]

I'm kinda thinking I don't really like having a unit replacement that has negatives when compared to the standard unit. Especially when I'm defending against an attack, if I'm going up against normal Musketmen and am forced to upgrade my crossbows into a weaker version of a Musketman, it feels really bad.

I'm going to call out two specific examples here; these are not castigations against the specific modmodders. I love you guys' work, I love the civs, I love YOU. These are just the two examples that come to mind for me in this moment. For the sake of simplicity, I'm going to set aside how well they do or don't do their specific intended jobs and focus on how the negatives affect the standard unit's usual intended roles.

First up is the Mi'kmaq Mlitia, from @Hinin and @gwennog's Cajuns civ.

Spoiler Civilopedia entry :

Spoiler Normal Musketman :

This guy is significantly weaker than a normal Musketman, particularly on the melee side of things. If I'm defending against someone with just regular Muskets and Tercios, I'm probably going to get smoked hard, and I have no option to build regular Muskets. (Yes, I do see that it has "chance to withdraw," but that's honestly such a terrible ability that I don't really consider it relevant even at 80% chance.) If

Next one in my sights is the Farsakh Cannon, from @pineappledan's Timurids.

Spoiler Civilopedia Entry :

Spoiler Normal Cannon :

This one might be the more egregious in my personal view, simply because of how huge the "immobile when damaged" drawback is. On defense, honestly it's probably better than a regular cannon. Sit it in a city and just blow things away with a ridiculous 11 extra RCS over the standard Cannon. But if I'm intending to actually siege with it, it's hard to see a situation where I wouldn't prefer to have a normal cannon; however, I don't have that option. The only cannons a Timurid player can actually build are Farsakh Cannons.

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Again, I want to emphasize that this is not intended to start a discussion on the specifics of these two units. This is not a criticism of the wonderful modders that make things for us. It is my intention to spark a discussion on how other people feel about UUs that replace a standard unit with an intentionally partially inferior version. (Actually, doesn't Denmark get a lower CS Longswordsman? I think I'm using one of pdan's tweaks mods that fixes that, so I forgot about it in this.)

Please discuss!

 

[Solic]

I don't mind this aspect at all. I think it's good that modders don't constrain themselves in just purely buffing every aspect, but can also superbuff one aspect and add a drawback to compensate. It leads to an extended design space.

Of those two, I have only played the farsakh cannon and I liked how it made me approach its positioning differently from a regular unit, because of its drawback, but I overall still felt more powerful with this UU active.

 

[Coffee Shop]

I enjoy it most of the time. Usually the drawback is matched with something that makes it worth it. The Farsakh cannon you mentioned is not only a beast with +10 RCS but also starts with siege 1. I'm training these units with enough experience to have a range boost to start with. 10/10 would recommend.

 

[ridjack]

I enjoy it most of the time. Usually the drawback is matched with something that makes it worth it. The Farsakh cannon you mentioned is not only a beast with +10 RCS but also starts with siege 1. I'm training these units with enough experience to have a range boost to start with. 10/10 would recommend.

...doesn't this require Military Academies that come on the same tech as the Field Gun, which has the same RCS plus Indirect Fire and no immobility drawback? Am I missing something?

 

[Coffee Shop]

...doesn't this require Military Academies that come on the same tech as the Field Gun, which has the same RCS plus Indirect Fire and no immobility drawback? Am I missing something?

If I remember correctly. It's barracks + armory + orders +stronghold and some other building that requires an armory. I'm not on the newest version

 

[ridjack]

Stronghold? Is that an EE thing?

 

[chicorbeef]

Denmark's Berserkers are a bit weaker than normal Longswords and that bothers me a bit because the AI on higher difficulties often quickly gets to Knights/Castles and I sometimes find myself wishing they had just a bit more survivability especially in enemy lands.

As for the concept of a UU with drawbacks as a whole though, I don't mind it, whether it's a good idea is something to be judged on a case by case basis.

 

[azum4roll]

On pillaged tiles berserkers have higher base CS than longswords.