Lebensraum - Alternate Ideas Brainstorm

[rkkn]

Isn't this a positive feedback loop?

yes, and this positive feedback loop already exists in TWO places. On this very tenet already, and on Epona

 

[Rekk]

Isn't this a positive feedback loop?

Is there something in the suggestion that the instant culture is attached to a city?

I imagine it would work exactly the same way as the tenet works now.

 

[rkkn]

Is there something in the suggestion that the instant culture is attached to a city?

I imagine it would work exactly the same way as the tenet works now.

currently the culture goes to the city
effectively this reduces border growth cost by 10*era

 

[usadefcon1]

CIV is a game that allows for some sort of an alternate history simulation because its concepts are grounded in human history. However, it is not intended to allow for a complete replica of human history. The game devs made deliberate decisions to omit/obfuscate certain aspects of human history that were so terrible, they should not be used as a mere game play mechanic. I think we should follow this example here and find a different name for this tenet.

Attila did some pretty evil things and he's a leader.

The Roman Empire crucified people during Augustus Caesar's rule.

The list goes on and on...

 

[CppMaster]

Is there anything more horrible than nuking a city? Which is in every civ game?

 

[Rekk]

We have had numerous discussions about this tenent in the past, and we always come back to the following conclusions

What nerfs have been rejected so far?

We have an OP tenent that we love, so we are staying OP. What I'm debating is, is there a tenent that is still OP, somethign that still gives you crazy benefits....but is a BIT more balanced than what we have today.

I'm not sure people love the fact that the tenet is OP, generically. They love that they can steal land from the AI that the AI can't do anything about. I absolutely agree with @azum4roll that if @ilteroi wrote the AI to do it to the player, everyone would be clamouring for a nerf. People hate America's UA when the AI uses it against them, and that can actually be defended against.

 

[Hosannah]

@usadefcon1 Yes he did and yes he is and yes they did. @CppMaster Yes, there are nukes and the use of them in reality is horrible beyond believe. But neither does the game offer the possibility to crucify people that follow different believes or to pillage/rape/enslave your enemies nor does it give you the LittleBoy promotion that provides 25% damage vs cities or the Enola Gay as a unique unit. This is a game that's based on human history and allows for combat. Therefore it will always depict wars, but as an abstraction. It can become problematic when that abstraction is replaced with specific examples from history. Maybe Lebensraum as an idiology is too abstract, how about the "red skins" promotion that gives cavalry +25% attack vs. barbarians or Germany's unique improvements is the concentration camp that reduces unrest and creates a small amount of gold each turn. I'm sure you'd disagree with some of these, hopefully with all of them. Terrible events/acts etc. from our past shouldn't be turned into game mechanics, or used as a short hand for that matter.

Call it Forced Displacement for example. It's an existing concept that can be used to describe the existing game mechanic, but in a more neutral way. It's roughly definied as: An involuntary or coerced movement of a person or people away from their home or home region as a result of persecution, conflict, generalized violence or human rights violations.

 

[usadefcon1]

@usadefcon1 Yes he did and yes he is and yes they did. @CppMaster Yes, there are nukes and the use of them in reality is horrible beyond believe. But neither does the game offer the possibility to crucify people that follow different believes or to pillage/rape/enslave your enemies nor does it give you the LittleBoy promotion that provides 25% damage vs cities or the Enola Gay as a unique unit. This is a game that's based on human history and allows for combat. Therefore it will always depict wars, but as an abstraction. It can become problematic when that abstraction is replaced with specific examples from history. Maybe Lebensraum as an idiology is too abstract, how about the "red skins" promotion that gives cavalry +25% attack vs. barbarians or Germany's unique improvements is the concentration camp that reduces unrest and creates a small amount of gold each turn. I'm sure you'd disagree with some of these, hopefully with all of them. Terrible events/acts etc. from our past shouldn't be turned into game mechanics, or used as a short hand for that matter.

Call it Forced Displacement for example. It's an existing concept that can be used to describe the existing game mechanic, but in a more neutral way. It's roughly definied as: An involuntary or coerced movement of a person or people away from their home or home region as a result of persecution, conflict, generalized violence or human rights violations.

Forced Displacement is a suitable name.

 

[pineappledan]

nor does it give you the LittleBoy promotion that provides 25% damage vs cities or the Enola Gay as a unique unit.

The model for the plane that drops the nuclear bomb is a B-29, and you get a free one for completing the Manhattan project. So... I'd say Little Boy and the Enola Gay are both in the game pretty explicitly actually. You just have to be able to read between the lines and have a bit of background knowledge.

But neither does the game offer the possibility to crucify people that follow different believes

The game has inquisitions, and we used to have them cause resistance and make a city lose 1 pop when you used inquisitors on them, but then decided that was anti-fun. Now you can unleash the inquisition on people within your empire with no cost.

 

[Stalker0]

another idea. Lebensraaum permanetly forces open borders with other civs (even snactioned ones). so your units cannot be constrained by meer politics!

 

[CppMaster]

But neither does the game offer the possibility to crucify people that follow different believes or to pillage/rape/enslave your enemies

We have a belief that you hit harder people that follow different believe, enslavement of workers and pillaging. The only thing that is missing is rape, but killing is worse than that anyway.

+25% attack vs. barbarians

We do have such promotion.

Terrible events/acts etc. from our past shouldn't be turned into game mechanics, or used as a short hand for that matter.

That ship have already sailed. We have nukes, slavery, pillaging, robbery, easier killing of certain people and killing in general. Without it'd like half of mechanics gone. Might aswell play sim city, lol. So yeah, those horrible things actually improve the game.

 

[rkkn]

America's UA ... can actually be defended against

Wait, how?

 

[pineappledan]

They can buy tiles from underneath units they are at war with.

 

[Rekk]

You can also conquer buffer cities.

 

[azum4roll]

Is there anything more horrible than nuking a city? Which is in every civ game?

Yes, razing a city with all its population.

Wait, how?

Settle cities exactly 7 tiles from theirs.

 

[Rekk]

Settle cities exactly 7 tiles from theirs.

Specifically, this prevents America from both buying your tiles since they fall outside their city's 3 tile buy radius, and it also prevent them from settling a city in between yours and theirs because cities need to be 4 tiles apart.

 

[Bromar1]

It becomes OP when you stockpile great generals throughout the game/faith purchase a bunch of them and then tunnel through enemy territory during a peace treaty. You can annihilate your strongest neighbor without them ever having a chance if you tunnel all the way to their capital, claim all land around it, surround the city with your six strongest land units and surround those with artilleries. I have done this and as soon as the peace treaty ended declared war and taken my opponent's 3-4 largest cities in one turn. They can do nothing because we don't have open borders, so beyond a garrison they can't bring in their military within a few tiles of their own cities. Very fun but feels like cheating.

What if we just add +1 minimum distance to place citadels? Will stop the exploit without having to change anything else

 

[Hosannah]

The model for the plane that drops the nuclear bomb is a B-29, and you get a free one for completing the Manhattan project. So... I'd say Little Boy and the Enola Gay are both in the game pretty explicitly actually. You just have to be able to read between the lines and have a bit of background knowledge.

The game has inquisitions, and we used to have them cause resistance and make a city lose 1 pop when you used inquisitors on them, but then decided that was anti-fun. Now you can unleash the inquisition on people within your empire with no cost.

And the german panzer is modelled after a specific type of tank which killed a lot of people during WW2, but it is not modelled/named after the one specific tank that infamously killed a school full of kids (I'm making this up, I am just trying to explain the difference). And yes, one could argue that Mahattan Project almost hits too close to home but first and foremost it's a scientific achievement, albeit a military one, that was later used to kill a lot of people. But following that logic, you'd have to stop at bronze working or gunpowder and that is not what I am suggesting. And no, neither Little Boy nor Enola Gay are explicitly in the game. And your point regarding inquision is, that ingame it's technically non-lethal now and only converts people? Doesn't that mean it does almost exactly the opposite to what happened historically? Listen, I am not proposing to change everything about the game, I am proposing that one tenet should be renamed.

 

[Hosannah]

We have a belief that you hit harder people that follow different believe, enslavement of workers and pillaging. The only thing that is missing is rape, but killing is worse than that anyway.

All abstractions still.

We do have such promotion.

I was making a point about possible names of a promotion and a unit, which would have taken the destruction of the native american tribes by the US forces and turned it into a game play mechanic. Yes, there is a bonus vs. "barbarians", but that again is very vague and can mean anything.

That ship have already sailed. We have nukes, slavery, pillaging, robbery, easier killing of certain people and killing in general. Without it'd like half of mechanics gone. Might aswell play sim city, lol. So yeah, those horrible things actually improve the game.

Again, all abstractions. You are not getting my point. I am not trying to take your beloved game away from you. I am proposing to rename one tenant.

 

[Stalker0]

And the german panzer is modelled after a specific type of tank which killed a lot of people during WW2, but it is not modelled/named after the one specific tank that infamously killed a school full of kids (I'm making this up, I am just trying to explain the difference). And yes, one could argue that Mahattan Project almost hits too close to home but first and foremost it's a scientific achievement, albeit a military one, that was later used to kill a lot of people. But following that logic, you'd have to stop at bronze working or gunpowder and that is not what I am suggesting. And no, neither Little Boy nor Enola Gay are explicitly in the game. And your point regarding inquision is, that ingame it's technically non-lethal now and only converts people? Doesn't that mean it does almost exactly the opposite to what happened historically? Listen, I am not proposing to change everything about the game, I am proposing that one tenet should be renamed.

We are way off topic at this point. If people want to rename something that's fine, but lets get off this tangent about how much or little VP showcases human historical cruelty, and get back to an actual MECHANICS discussion.