Monarch Attempt (Nobles' Club readers/players are welcome)

[Diamondeye]

Thoughts - you are playing without a plan.

Okay, I might give that impression. Analysis of starting position is that I am located rather well, so I will have the upper hand techwise. Therefore, I would grab pottery for cottages and then head for HBR/construction for a attack squad of UU/catties.

I'd probably move the yellow dot one west.

That wastes the rice as the only immidiately accesible resource! Please explain why you would do this!

Green dot I hate.

I know, merely backfilling.

Red dot... There's not enough information, but 2W of the copper looks more likely.

To me the western terrain looks like jungles and deserts. Furthermore, it would lose access to gems and spice, and gain nothing in particular.

You should really have more visibility about what's west of the capital

I realized this too. I still have a scout, he is down south, wounded atm. I will send him west once he is healed. Also, I though I'd settle red first so I had a bit more time to scout west as red spot looks really nice to me.

[/QUOTE]the mission of "figure out where your second city should go" seems to have been lost to other concerns.[/QUOTE]

Partially true. I was unlucky with first scout and figured I'd scout around with the clock, so west was last, because it looked as being mostly jungle.

But I like you go rough on me, VoU, keep it coming!

 

[OTAKUjbski]

Even though it loses the Bananas, I'd Settle the Yellow dot 1SW of where you've placed it (1S of Grassland hill along river).

I also agree with VoU about moving the Red city westward a little, though I'm not sure if I would move it just 1W of where you placed it or 2W of the Copper in the Jungles (I need to see more over there to make certain).

You should really have more visibility about what's west of the capital; the mission of "figure out where your second city should go" seems to have been lost to other concerns.

I disagree. He's only been through 34 Turns and has another 14 to figure out the rest of the map. He has plenty of scouting done for this date, IMO.

... but I definitely agree you should turn your Scout SW then NW to complete the circle past the Copper before deciding where the Copper Floodplains city should go.

Also, don't forget to move the Grassland Forest citizen-worker to the Riverside Plains Ivory.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

I disagree. He's only been through 34 Turns and has another 14 to figure out the rest of the map. He has plenty of scouting done for this date, IMO.

Well, if that Settler is going to be built the slow way, sure. If he's going to whip the last 45 hammers, then the window is a lot smaller.

And to be clear, my gripe isn't "not enough scouting" but rather "scouting in the wrong place". It's not always going to work out, but I would normally perfer not to be digging a city out of the jungle before Iron Working, so the natural barrier (which was visible on turn zero) would have had me looking west, rather than south, out of the gate.

That wastes the rice as the only immidiately accesible resource! Please explain why you would do this!

Tres simple - I value the extra gems more than the dry rice. Most of that area is green and flat anyway, so there's not so much demand for supplemental food - the bananas and the sugar will be plenty. It also puts the city on the river (more health, free connection to the capital, levees).

 

[Diamondeye]

Even though it loses the Bananas, I'd Settle the Yellow dot 1SW of where you've placed it (1S of Grassland hill along river).

I also agree with VoU about moving the Red city westward a little, though I'm not sure if I would move it just 1W of where you placed it or 2W of the Copper in the Jungles (I need to see more over there to make certain).

Hmm. looks as desert/jungle to me but I will, ofcourse, try to scout some more westwards. Although it is stupid, as VoU mentions to waste settler turns.

I disagree. He's only been through 34 Turns and has another 14 to figure out the rest of the map. He has plenty of scouting done for this date, IMO.

... but I definitely agree you should turn your Scout SW then NW to complete the circle past the Copper before deciding where the Copper Floodplains city should go.

Agree And perhaps I'll chop some of the settler, so 14 turns might be a bit long.

Also, don't forget to move the Grassland Forest citizen-worker to the Riverside Plains Ivory.

Ofcourse mate. I was surprised the governer hadn't done this but I will

Well, if that Settler is going to be built the slow way, sure. If he's going to whip the last 45 hammers, then the window is a lot smaller.

Since I am not in slavery, that'll not be an issue. And I'm not going to be in slavery anytime soon. I hate that civic when playing with random events.

And to be clear, my gripe isn't "not enough scouting" but rather "scouting in the wrong place". It's not always going to work out, but I would normally perfer not to be digging a city out of the jungle before Iron Working, so the natural barrier (which was visible on turn zero) would have had me looking west, rather than south, out of the gate.

Agree. I got a bit obsessed with the nice terrain down south. IW will be a priority.

Tres simple - I value the extra gems more than the dry rice. Most of that area is green and flat anyway, so there's not so much demand for supplemental food - the bananas and the sugar will be plenty. It also puts the city on the river (more health, free connection to the capital, levees).

Okay. Dry rice is... 4 right? And I am thinking it will grow rather slowly precalendar without rice. Flat grasslands aren't good for quick growth but for steady growth.

Point about river: We are expansive, so won't be much of a problem. Ofcourse we have jungle and a rather high happycap with Ivory and gems (with a forge even more so as it provides 1). Connection is always nice, levees is not an issue that should weight heavily earlygame. But point taken - I will consider this later today when playing next period.

 

[Diamondeye]

Okay, next round played:

3150 BC - 1575 BC:

I first settle south, red spot. scouting reveals that Wang Kon is to our immidiate west, and Monty and Qin southward. I also settle Yellow spot, and try to grab east, but Wang settles a city, and a barb city pops with three archers. My axe kills off one before dying. Then I settle the best I can and hope that with my Creative culture I can landlock Wang, possibly even flip the city. Techpath was:
The Wheel>Pottery>Writing>Alphabet, then I stopped. Map looks like this:
North:

Too bad the barb city spawned, 1W would've given Angkor Wat gems. Also, if Wang hadn't settled there, I would have settled on gems - or 1W of them. But too bad.
Southwest:

Immidiate thoughts are that Gandhi is landlocked but has some place to expand. He is not a dangerous AI so that's fine. I am more concerned with Qin Shi Huangdis who has copper... He might be an enemy later on. On a side note, his UU is actually rather nice against ours, as the elly is not immune to Firststrikes, so with Pro his troops will stand a fine chance against even war ellies.
Southeast:

Monty's down there. The terrain is rather poor. I think the main body of land is east of there, but I am not sure.

Plans ahead: Techpath: I am thinking of going IW->AH->Math->Constr (prereqs?).
Also, I am the only one with Alpha AFAIK, so I can backfill by trading around a bit.

Any feedback/ideas/opinions?

 

[OTAKUjbski]

Why does the AI insist on settling ON THE GOLD ... ... that's even worse than one-off-the-coast!?

Funny .. if this was my game, and I invaded QSH, I'd raze and move every city 1SW except Shanghai (which would simply be eliminated).

Wow .. come to look at it ... Delhi absolutely SUCKS ... I'd raze that one too and move it 1 SE! Depending on what kind of seafood is down there, Bombay could stand to be moved or razed, too!

All that land but yours sucks ... keep looking east.

Oh damn; 4 of your neighbours are Protective (QSH, Charlemagne, WK & Toku), one's an Aggressive psycho (Montezuma), one's a crazy TECH_WHORE (MM) and the other's a Gandhi (Gandhi ).

I'm guessing the diplomatic situation is more-or-less non existant, huh?

Alphabet already!? That's so Vanilla ... unless you popped it from a hut, I think you researched it too early. In BtS, the AI values Alphabet very highly and prioritize it over nearly every "espensive" tech, so there's usually nothing worth trading if you beeline it. I (You) typically want to put only 1 or 2 turns of research into then let the AI research it [for you].

Seeing as how you have it, though, does anybody want to go to war for you in exchange for some of your techs?

If you want to make any kind of war, you're going to need Catapults. (Jumbos and Catapults sound like fun, don't they?)

Keep your borders closed to Wang Kon to ensure he doesn't spread Hinduism to Gandhi or QSH and create a big mess.

Gandhi is the easiest target right now, but with such shltty land, I doubt his teching will keep up with you ... you can probably leave him for later.

Charlemagne and Buddhism are east of you, so I expect Monty and you to be the first converts.

You shouldn't have border problems with Monty if you can drop another city northeast of his Gold/Floodplains city (but not right next to if possible), so if you can share a religion with him and play nice, you might be able to turn him into a little attack dog. Be careful with him.

QSH has the best land but is Protective with raze-worthy cities. If you intend to move Beijing (kinda crazy, I know), try to do it before he builds any Stone Wonders -- else you're stuck with whatever he's got.

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Build more Workers ... at least 2 per city (total of 8). You have a LOT of chopping in your future.

Forget about a real early war, IMO.

Beeline Calendar and ensure Yasodharapura and Hariharalaya never stop cranking out military builds.

Keep an eye on QSH. Send a couple Axemen and a Spearman to 'greet' him ... maybe raze every road and tile improvement you run across and steal a Worker or two (I bet off the Stone tile) for good measure.

(Hell, I'd do the same thing to Gandhi and WK, too, lol. I'm crazy like that.)

If you keep them beaten down while you tech up, they'll be easy pickins by the end of your next round.

Open borders with Monty ASAP and find out what he's working with.

... that's all I can come up with right now.

 

[Diamondeye]

Two things first of all;
1: I know I should have rushed west and settled so Wang was landlocked
2: I am not going to play next round until saturday, earliest, maybe it'll be wednesday 9 days

Why does the AI insist on settling ON THE GOLD ... ... that's even worse than one-off-the-coast!?

Agree...!

Funny .. if this was my game, and I invaded QSH, I'd raze and move every city 1SW except Shanghai (which would simply be eliminated).

Well, he is protective. And his land is not fantastic. And his cities needs refounding. I think a war against him would be a no-no -wise and... what's the phrase... Potential-wise. Those hammers/troops would be put to better use elsewhere.

Wow .. come to look at it ... Delhi absolutely SUCKS ... I'd raze that one too and move it 1 SE! Depending on what kind of seafood is down there, Bombay could stand to be moved or razed, too!

India is crappy, just put it like that

All that land but yours sucks ... keep looking east.

Will do

Oh damn; 4 of your neighbours are Protective (QSH, Charlemagne, WK & Toku), one's an Aggressive psycho (Montezuma), one's a crazy TECH_WHORE (MM) and the other's a Gandhi (Gandhi ).

That's what I realized aswell. Seems extra-bad as the neighboors right next door are Pro, and Gandhi and MM (I dont know where he is) seems to become good friends...

I'm guessing the diplomatic situation is more-or-less non existant, huh?

Hmm. Rather tough, anyway. I might be able to bribe Monty, maybe QSH to wage a war or two.

Alphabet already!? That's so Vanilla ... unless you popped it from a hut, I think you researched it too early. In BtS, the AI values Alphabet very highly and prioritize it over nearly every "espensive" tech, so there's usually nothing worth trading if you beeline it. I (You) typically want to put only 1 or 2 turns of research into then let the AI research it [for you].

... I find the Alpha beeline to work pretty well on Prince, but perhaps I am about to learn a thing or two about Monarch... I haven't had a look at trade techs screen yet, so we'll find out. I just figured it would be the best way to put my superior land to use.

Seeing as how you have it, though, does anybody want to go to war for you in exchange for some of your techs?

Dunno. I can probably talk Monty into something

If you want to make any kind of war, you're going to need Catapults. (Jumbos and Catapults sound like fun, don't they?)

Oh yes, they do.

Keep your borders closed to Wang Kon to ensure he doesn't spread Hinduism to Gandhi or QSH and create a big mess.

More hints like these! I tend to OB with whomever asks, but I'll try to remember this one.

Gandhi is the easiest target right now, but with such shltty land, I doubt his teching will keep up with you ... you can probably leave him for later.

Yup, exactly my thoughts. I don't know if QSH is hard to bribe into closing borders, so Gandhi can be cut off?

Charlemagne and Buddhism are east of you, so I expect Monty and you to be the first converts.

Sounds fair. I wonder where MM is?

You shouldn't have border problems with Monty if you can drop another city northeast of his Gold/Floodplains city (but not right next to if possible), so if you can share a religion with him and play nice, you might be able to turn him into a little attack dog. Be careful with him.

Will do, one can never be too careful with Monty.

QSH has the best land but is Protective with raze-worthy cities. If you intend to move Beijing (kinda crazy, I know), try to do it before he builds any Stone Wonders -- else you're stuck with whatever he's got.

Oookay, I'll keep an eye on any wonders built. And by who.

Build more Workers ... at least 2 per city (total of 8). You have a LOT of chopping in your future.

Okay. 8 sounds a bit overdone, but I'll look into it.

Forget about a real early war, IMO.

Yes, catties will be needed.

Beeline Calendar and ensure Yasodharapura and Hariharalaya never stop cranking out military builds.

Yes, fine too.

Keep an eye on QSH. Send a couple Axemen and a Spearman to 'greet' him ... maybe raze every road and tile improvement you run across and steal a Worker or two (I bet off the Stone tile) for good measure.

(Hell, I'd do the same thing to Gandhi and WK, too, lol. I'm crazy like that.)

If you keep them beaten down while you tech up, they'll be easy pickins by the end of your next round.

Isn't that going to make them all hate me? I mean, wouldn't I get completely overrun/dragged down by doing this?

Open borders with Monty ASAP and find out what he's working with.

... that's all I can come up with right now.

Plenty of good advice, thankya mate.

Anyone feel free to discuss; we have a week

 

[OTAKUjbski]

Isn't that going to make them all hate me?

Yes, but if you know you're going to eventually go to war with them anyway, why wait to start the hate?

wouldn't I get completely overrun/dragged down by doing this?

At this stage of the game, whoever gets the first strike gets the last strike.

I'm not talking about sending 20 units into enemy territory ... I'm talking about 4-6 (2-3 Shock/Cover Axes and 2-3 Formation Spearmen).

As long as you're in their territory pillaging everything, they'll have nothing to "overrun" you with. They'll whip/chop themselves into the ground building Archers, which you can use later to build up XP and GG points.

And as long as you keep pillaging everything, your units will pay for themselves while over there, so you won't get "dragged down".

When you do finally go to peace with them, they'll have to spend 50 Worker-turns rebuilding everything. While they're busy whipping themselves to pieces and rebuilding tile improvements, you'll be teching away in comfort at home.

(At least, that's how I do it when I need to buy some time.)

 

[huerfanista]

BTW, I'd like to second OTAKUjbski's earlier request for you to post the 4000BC save (if you have it).

 

[Diamondeye]

As stated earlier there seemed to be a problem with the upload, so I need some kind of instructions if you want the save. Also, I would recommend, if you plan to hang on tot he thread, that you do not play (too far) ahead, and that you keep info I do not have access too in spoilers.

Concerning the choke, I understand whatcha mean OTAKU, would it be best to do to QSH or WK, initially?

 

[OTAKUjbski]

so I need some kind of instructions if you want the save.

1. Click "Post Reply" or "Go Advanced".
   
2. Scroll down and click "Manage Attachments".
   
3. Click "Browse". (Browse to the desired file, select it and click OK.)
   
4. Click "Upload".
   
5. Wait a few seconds while the file uploads.
   
6. Scroll to the bottom of the Manage Attachments window and click "Close this window".

Concerning the choke, I understand whatcha mean OTAKU, would it be best to do to QSH or WK, initially?

WK has a religion. If you give him time, he might even build the shrine for you.

WK has a UU Catapult with bonuses vs. Melee. You have Jumbos, so even if he gets his Hwacha, it won't be the end of the world.

We don't know anything about WK's cities. War and pillaging would let you scout him out. (It looks like Seoul is coastal 4W of the Pigs.)

NOTE: you can open borders with WK to scout him out, but be wary of Missionaries ... close your borders at the first sign of them. Or, open a conversation with him and see what cities are listed on his side, since we already know where 2 are.

QSH has Stone and is Industrious. If you give him time, he will build wonders for you.

QSH has a UU Crossbow with Protective bonuses, an extra 1st Strike and collateral damage on the attack. They hurt against everything, so if he gets them, it won't be pretty (it won't be the end of the world .. it just won't be easy).

I think QSH's cities are crap. If (When) he starts building Wonders, you're going to be stuck with the cities.

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If you're okay with QSH's city placement in exchange for Wonders (probably only Stonehenge and the Great Wall), then hit up WK and wait for QSH to build Stonehenge and the Great Wall.

If you'd rather let somebody else build the Wonders or hope you can build them, hit up QSH.

IDK ... I think either choice will prolly work out fine in the end.

 

[Diamondeye]

I tried to upload the file that way but it kept saying "Upload in progress" or summat, and never got any further... I gave it several hours, mindyou!

And I think I will choke QSH as his UU reqs Iron, which I might stop him from getting/linking up. WK's is resourceless. Also, strategicly, QSH's lands let me block out Gandhi and WK. Since Gandhi will rarely start wars (read: never), I could the focus on backfilling by first taking out WK and then, later, Gandhi.

Monty might be a bit of a problem, but I could try to befriend him or have him help me in my wars (as long as he doesnt win... ugh! He doesn't need any more land or he will become to selfsufficient!) I am playing with the thought of having him DoW MM if possible. I need to find MM as well as Chuck soon.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

I tried to upload the file that way but it kept saying "Upload in progress" or summat, and never got any further... I gave it several hours, mindyou!

Hmm ... try uploading a .zip or .jpg file ... you don't have a firewall or something blocking file transfers, huh?

And I think I will choke QSH as his UU reqs Iron, which I might stop him from getting/linking up. WK's is resourceless.

I didn't even think about that.

 

[Diamondeye]

Hmm ... try uploading a .zip or .jpg file ... you don't have a firewall or something blocking file transfers, huh?

I don't think so. But I can't get to the computer with my save on until saturday, earliest, probably sunday or even wednesday 8 days (parents are divorced )

I didn't even think about that.

Good thing I did then

 

[Diamondeye]

1575 BC - 925 BC:

Okay, lots of interesting stuff happened this round. First, after I teched Alphabet last turn of last round, I decided to check the techtrade screen:

Lots of potential here, plenty of people without writing, and not even Mansa has Alphabet yet. So, first, I checked what I could get for the "odd techs" only one or two people were lacking (Agri to Monty, Pottery to Chuck and Hunting to WK):

Monty agrees to get me Mysticism for Agri. I tried with Arhcery (133, like Agri), but he denied. So it had to be Mysticism (111).
After that, we visit Chucky:

He denies this, so we settle for fishing from him instead. We then trade Wang Writing+Hunting for AH.
Now, all I can hope of getting in techtrades this turn is archery, but it's sort of overkill to pay with writing, so I decide not to. Nobody wants to trade Masonry, and only Mansa wants to get rid of IW and we can't afford it.

We decide to shift from IW to Mathematics, as we need Calendar and Construction, and the AIs tend to get IW for us. We hope they will again.

Anyway, discovering (read: Buying) AH gets us a look into where there are horses. A little nifty surprise for the bad northern location:

Now, I'm a little confused as to when what happens, but I believe the next thing, only two or three turns after the initial trade, this pops up:

I take a rash decision and accept. Masonry leads to Construction, which we like very well. I know I am feeding the techmunstah by doing this, but I figure it'll be worth it since we can then quarry the stone north, once we settle there. Also, this trade turns out to benefit us some turns later:

Good thinking Gandhi! Even if Masonry is a little bit more expensie than archery (I think like 25 more), we accept. No need to waste time teching archery ourselves.Next big event:

The barb city has been taken. We lost two axemen, one of them with CR I, the other @ 0 xp. I decided to keep the thing to isolate Wang Kon. I also denied him OB, so he can't spread his religion.

After this, we spend a couple of turns building units (we are now at 4-5 workers, and we have a scout aswell). Then, we look at the techtree again and find this trade:

We get our greasy hands on Mathematics shortly thereafter, due to our China-bordering city producing . That really saved us some time. Anyway, we find someone who has IW, and throw Maths into their face. I believe it to be our good friend Monty (he has no real need to know where Iron is, besides, I plan to befriend him):

Okay, I decided to do a spoiler-montage of the graphs (except espionage, which is rubbish):

Spoiler GRAPHS :

...Also, since we got AH and IW this round, you might want to see some terrain updates:

 

[Diamondeye]

Spoiler RESOURCES :

Worth noticing is; Neither Gandhi nor QSH have Iron, so expansion southward will be a priority.
Everyone except Wang has horses visible to us.
Wang Kon and Monty both have Iron.
Tokugawa has the Great Wall (and is also astly behind techwise, having discovered neither Agri nor Mysticism yet ).

Oookay. Hit me with some feedback, I am itching to play next round!
If I can get the upload working properly, saves @ 4000BC, 3150BC, 1575BC and 925BC will be included in this post.

Sorry for splitting up the update, there is a max of 20 images per post.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

That round was short and simple. I love tech trading, so it was a smörgåsbord of delight.

Other than Tokugawa's Great Wall, what other Wonders have been built?

It appears QSH still doesn't have Masonry (or just got it, perhaps), so I'm not expecting him to build the Pyramids any time soon.

25 Turns for Construction feels a little on the slow side. Since it's a 'pre expansion' tech, later techs will only get slower as you make use of its Catapults and Jumbos.

You might want to change gears and go after Calendar and/or Currency right now instead of Construction.

Calendar represents +3 and +21 -- which is HUGE! (NOTE: Clear the Jungle over the Dyes, Spices and Sugars now and build a route to at least 1 of each. Using 8 Workers (which can together build a Plantation in 1 Turn), you'll be able to build Plantations on all the Dyes, Spices and Sugars within 10 turns after Calendar researches!)

Currency represents a smaller amount (at least +1 per city) but is instant and increases with foreign trading partners.

--------

As much as I love early war, it appears we're moving out of a "rush" and into an "early war" -- the latter of which need not be hurried.

There appears to be one or two good city sites east between you and Tokugawa. There's significant Jungle growth, but that just means beautiful Cottage land underneath.

I'd usually leave it up to the AIs to settle and develop, but it appears everyone in the east (except Tokugawa) is going to end up on your friendly side. So, if anyone other than Toku (read: "Monty") takes those spots, it'll only hurt you down the line.

Consider scouting and quickly settling both of those city sites before the AI can get to it. You'll need 2 Workers per city, which should be easy for an Expansive leader like yourself, eh? If you split the Cow and Banana between 2 cities, each will have decent food and several green hills to work with. If you Cottage Spam each of them, they'll quickly become a boon for your economy (especially after Calendar when your cap jumps to 9).

The Horse/Stone/Copper city looks 'meh', but if you Farm the 5 Grasslands, you'll be able to work 22 @ pop10 -- which'll pretty much be its production limit until Biology and/or State Property. I usually wouldn't prioritize something like that (especially not one-off-the-coast), but those resources aren't really something I'd want to give to the AI. IDK.

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All things considered, I'd probably stay 'peaceful' for one more round. Maybe aim to DoW in the early AD's with Jumbos and lots of Catapults while 'slow teching' through Aesthetics, Code of Laws (try to not found Confucianism) and Literature (all of which are usually great trading fodder).

If you're lucky, Buddhism will spread to you to get you on Monty's 'better' side sooner.

 

[Diamondeye]

I have maintenance trouble settling both east and the northern city, I believe. And I figured if I had the northern city farm 2 grasslands and work horses, stone and copper, it would be generating around 13 @ pop 5, 10@ pop4.

I will consider switching to Calendar, although it is also a large tech. I was primarily thinking that there was so much need for the builds construction holds that I would build these while teching Calendar. OTOH, 3 pop more in each city will make it significantly easier to both tech and build. I will get more workers out and clear jungle asap.

I cannot remember which wonders have been built, I believe it is very few actually. But since I tried out the random map generator on a tiny Monarch map where I also randomed Khmer (LOL), I might be wrong about which wonders were built and when. I'll SS the wonder screen tomorrow.

 

[Groogaroo]

Hey, I'm still following this thread, havn't been very vocal but I really don't feel I have alot of advice to offer. Looking at Voice of reasons post calander seems like such a no-brainer, I never look at calander in simple terms as he put it.

I never really put much priority into tech trading, probably becuase I'm poor at it. I suppose at prince level you can get away with trading less but its something I'm going to have to get too grips with if I want to try monarch.

Good luck with the next roundn allthough my contribution to this thread is more likely to be asking questions rather than giving awnsers

 

[pigswill]

Its worth remembering when it comes to WFYABTA(tech trade limit) that the AI count the number of techs not the value of techs so trading for ag and med now means you may not be able to trade for feudalism and machinery later. It can be better to research the cheap early techs to keep tech trading in reserve for the more expensive ones.

You might need horse-riding for elephants as well as construction.