Monarchy or Republic?

[Scrivener]

Hail everyone! I will be approaching a decision of changing government soon and was wondering which of the two is best (Monarchy or Republic)? I am currently putting 100% into Science and breaking even each turn with income/expenses. I'm sure there are many factors but I have limited knowledge as I'm playing my very first game (at chieftain) so please try not to overwhelm my newbie brain.

Check this thread for game details and maps of my adventures.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=202974

A loyal servant,
Scrivener

 

[Aabraxan]

Republic is the better general, all-around government. Monarchy is useful for All-War games, but the commerce bonus from republic is tough to beat. IIUC, in republic, any tile already producing one commerce automatically produces an additional one. Monarchy has better unit support and no war weariness, but war weariness and unit support costs are manageable.

 

[MAS]

And the "All-War games" that Aabraxan talked about, are not just game where you are at war a lot, nor games played with a warmongering play style.

He was talking about an "Always War" variant game. A variant game is a game where the player gives himself unusual handicaps in order to challenge himself.

The "Always War" variant, is a variant where you declare war in each civ you meet at the same turn you make contact, and never ever make peace with that civ again, for the rest of the game.

 

[Scrivener]

Thanks for the information. Most of my tiles have been irrigated. A few hills and mountains have been mined. Does government change impact town growth? Is there a good (easy to read) link discussing the pros and cons of the various governments? This site is so full of info that it's taking me a long time to surf it all (better too much than not enough).

Almost forgot. What affect does government have on unit costs? Currently I have no unit costs because I haven't been able to produce them quick enough to meet the freebie limit.

A loyal servant,
Scrivener

 

[drakdan]

Government change doesn't impact town growth, aqueducts/hospitals and food availability do. As for the pros/cons of governments, Republic is the answer for 99% of your games. Monarchy for AW, and Feudalism for 100k Culture. There is plenty of math behind it, but that's all you really need to know. As for Unit Support, it's in the ingame civilopedia, but Republic has a small unit support number and costs 2 GpT for each unit over. Get your towns to size 7 to beat this. Also make marketplaces.

And you don't want to irrigate everything, you want to mine everything. Especially in Despotism, where irrigation VERY rarely yields additional food.

 

[pat4]

You should usually mine green and irigate brown when it comes to tile improvements. Look at crackers article on opening moves for this it's priceless.

As with unit costs Monarch can support more units and you also have to pay 2 gpu. But the republic bonus of commerce does more than balance this.

Without going into to much detail watch out for war weariness. But you shouldn't have to deal with this until you move up the levels.

 

[Aabraxan]

Is there a good (easy to read) link discussing the pros and cons of the various governments? This site is so full of info that it's taking me a long time to surf it all (better too much than not enough).

Almost forgot. What affect does government have on unit costs?

Somewhere on CFC, I think in the reference section maybe (?), there are a few pdf files that list all of the governments, techs, units, costs, upgrade costs, etc. I'd suggest downloading and printing them up for easy reference. Also, if you don't have a utility such as CivAssist II or MapStat, I'd suggest getting one.

 

[gmaharriet]

There have been some good replies already, and I can add that my preference is almost always Republic. That being said, I don't believe there is any one handy place to find comprehensive comparisons of the pros/cons of all the governments.

What you will find, if you look back far enough in both General Discussions and Strategies & Tips forums, are dozens and dozens of discussions of which gov't is best. The topic probably comes up at least once a month, because everyone who plays has a need to know the answer...if there really IS one.

You can set your board preferences to look back to about 2000 or 2001 (the beginning of time at CFC), and browse through the discussions for anything about governments. Good luck!!!

 

[civverguy]

Why do everyone switch to Republic asap? I always lose a lot of gold to the unit upkeep when I switch to republic but I need to units to conquer enemies to expand my territory and get resources. I switch to republic in the middle/late Medieval age because I then have the luxuries and size 7+ cities to gain more money than I do in monarchy. I usually go from Despotism-> Feudalism-> Republic. Is this ok?

 

[Norton II]

Why do everyone switch to Republic asap? I always lose a lot of gold to the unit upkeep when I switch to republic but I need to units to conquer enemies to expand my territory and get resources. I switch to republic in the middle/late Medieval age because I then have the luxuries and size 7+ cities to gain more money than I do in monarchy. I usually go from Despotism-> Feudalism-> Republic. Is this ok?

It might be okay if you're using a religious civ, but other than that, you don't need the extra anarchy.
Unit support can be a problem if you switch to republic early, but there are ways to make it less of a problem. First, build plenty of workers (often I have every city other than my settler factories build two before starting on a barracks) and use them to road all or most of the tiles you're working. Second, don't build more units than you need. You don't need a spearman in every city--a few warriors and archers can handle the barbs, and a big stack of swordsmen or horsemen can take out a neighboring civ, at least on emperor and below (and sometimes on demigod, too). Even after minimizing the unit support problem, you may have to keep the science slider lower than you did in despotism, but you'll probably be pulling in more beakers anyway since your net income will be so much higher.
Republic isn't really the best government; communism is better, and democracy might be as well (at least in peacetime). Those governments, however, come relatively late in the game and require you to buy, research, extort (good luck on that), or steal two optional techs each. You don't want to wait until the late MA or early IA to get out of despotism, and you don't want to go through two periods of anarchy, so it's best to revolt to republic early and stay there.

 

[Aceman101]

Republic is the better general, all-around government. Monarchy is useful for All-War games, but the commerce bonus from republic is tough to beat. IIUC, in republic, any tile already producing one commerce automatically produces an additional one. Monarchy has better unit support and no war weariness, but war weariness and unit support costs are manageable.

It doesn't take much war for citizens in Republic to get war weariness. And no unit support cost in republic, how are you meant to stay out of debt? For me Monarchy is better, probably also because I'm a warmonger and don't like war weariness .

After reading the post above, that answeres my question.

 

[gmaharriet]

It doesn't take much war for citizens in Republic to get war weariness. And no unit support cost in republic, how are you meant to stay out of debt? For me Monarchy is better, probably also because I'm a warmonger and don't like war weariness .

After reading the post above, that answeres my question.

It seems like a recall reading in another thread that you play vanilla, and it's true that there is no unit support in Republic in vanilla, though I think (not sure) each unit is only 1gpt. In Conquests there is unit support in Republic, 1 unit for towns (pop 1-6), 3 units for cities (pop 7-12), and 4 units for metros (pop 12+), but additional units cost 2gpt. I haven't played vanilla in so long I don't recall how well it worked, but Republic is quite nice once you get most of your towns to pop 7+.

War weariness is very managable in Republic if you are fighting offensive wars and don't lose too many units (artillery helps with this). If you fight defensive wars with the enemy in your territory, and if they take your cities and kill many units, that's when war weariness gets really bad.

 

[Aceman101]

It seems like a recall reading in another thread that you play vanilla,

That's right .

and it's true that there is no unit support in Republic in vanilla, though I think (not sure) each unit is only 1gpt.

Yes - each unit is 1gpt, well in vanilla that is.

In Conquests there is unit support in Republic, 1 unit for towns (pop 1-6), 3 units for cities (pop 7-12), and 4 units for metros (pop 12+), but additional units cost 2gpt.

Well in vanilla there is no unit support for republic. But additional unit's only cost 1gpt (I'm not too sure if this is true for Republic though). So in vanilla I would say Republic is harder to manage.

I haven't played vanilla in so long I don't recall how well it worked, but Republic is quite nice once you get most of your towns to pop 7+.

Yes - so why don't people wait untill the cities are large then change to Republic?

War weariness is very managable in Republic if you are fighting offensive wars and don't lose too many units (artillery helps with this). If you fight defensive wars with the enemy in your territory, and if they take your cities and kill many units, that's when war weariness gets really bad.

Even if I am winning a war, if it's a very long war then war weariness starts happening (Or that's what I have been told).

 

[gmaharriet]

so why don't people wait untill the cities are large then change to Republic?

Because in Republic you get rid of the despotic penalty. An irrigated grass will produce 1 more food and your population will grow more quickly.

In addition, each worked tile that already produces commerce will produce 1 more. Especially as your towns begin to grow faster, the amount of gold you can earn increases faster, and that gold can fund faster research.

Also, because you no longer use MPs in Republic, you can disband many (if not all) of your regular warriors who are doing nothing but just sitting on their backsides. The vet warriors can be upgraded to swords and sent off to conquer the neighbors.

Even if I am winning a war, if it's a very long war then war weariness starts happening (Or that's what I have been told).

Well, how long is considered very long??? If you're winning, you can do an awful lot of warmongering before noticing any effect from war weariness. You can even get "war happiness" if the AI declares on you. I've waged a lot of war with few problems. If it does start to get bad, just sue for peace. Then either wait 20 turns and declare again, OR declare on a different civ and the WW count starts from zero.

Usually, Republic is only a problem if you're playing an "Always War" variant where you can never have a peace treaty for the entire game.

 

[Aceman101]

Because in Republic you get rid of the despotic penalty. An irrigated grass will produce 1 more food and your population will grow more quickly.

Yes, I havn't thought of that .

In addition, each worked tile that already produces commerce will produce 1 more. Especially as your towns begin to grow faster, the amount of gold you can earn increases faster, and that gold can fund faster research.

One more commerce per turn is a good bonus, but some penalties in Republic are a bit ridiculous (Like no unit support) but I know that's different in conquests .

Also, because you no longer use MPs in Republic, you can disband many (if not all) of your regular warriors who are doing nothing but just sitting on their backsides. The vet warriors can be upgraded to swords and sent off to conquer the neighbors.

Alot of vet warriors should do the trick .

Well, how long is considered very long??? If you're winning, you can do an awful lot of warmongering before noticing any effect from war weariness. You can even get "war happiness" if the AI declares on you. I've waged a lot of war with few problems. If it does start to get bad, just sue for peace. Then either wait 20 turns and declare again, OR declare on a different civ and the WW count starts from zero.

Well, I started getting war weariness after about 20 turns in Republic. (I have tested Republic once).

Usually, Republic is only a problem if you're playing an "Always War" variant where you can never have a peace treaty for the entire game.

That's were Monarchy comes in .

 

[MAS]

In republic in vanilla, units cost 1 gpt.
In republic, you get 2 times as much commerce.
So if you set your SCI slider to 50% you still get as much commerce going to science as under monarchy at 100%. (more even as corruption is less under republic)
The other 50% can be used to support units. For size 12 cities, that is about 12 units, 18 with a marked. And a bit less in cities with corruption. But it is still 6 for a city that is 50% corrupt. (and 9 with a marked)

Compare that with the 4 units per city under monarchy!

Most probably, you don't need that many units, so you will have gpt left over. this you are then free to use on SCI, or on LUX.

If you have less than 4 units per city under monarchy, the extra unit support can not be used for something else. It will just go to waste.

In worst case war wariness, your lux slider has to be so high to compensate, that it is better to be in monarchy, but this should only be a temporary state, if it happens at all. (with the exception of Always War variant play)

If worst case war wariness is a real problem for you in a normal game, it is likely you are doing something wrong managing your wars or your empire.

 

[vmxa]

One reason to switch asap is for growth. The time it took you to get Feud, you suffered the despot food penalty.

The other good point about Rep is you have no MP benefit, so you do not have to pay for units to sit around. They can be sent to fight.

 

[civverguy]

When I switch to republic though, I will have little military and some AI civs will send some units in my territory and declare war one turn later.

 

[Aceman101]

In republic in vanilla, units cost 1 gpt.
In republic, you get 2 times as much commerce.
So if you set your SCI slider to 50% you still get as much commerce going to science as under monarchy at 100%. (more even as corruption is less under republic)
The other 50% can be used to support units. For size 12 cities, that is about 12 units, 18 with a marked. And a bit less in cities with corruption. But it is still 6 for a city that is 50% corrupt. (and 9 with a marked)

Compare that with the 4 units per city under monarchy!

Yes - but before you get metros republic can get you into negative gpt. Because no unit support cost before getting metros . But that's different in conquests.

 

[MAS]

Yes - but before you get metros republic can get you into negative gpt. Because no unit support cost before getting metros . But that's different in conquests.

I was talking about size 12 cities. (metro is 13+)

Yes, I know its a bit tougher with cities below size 12.

Well OK, size 6 cities, You get 6 bonus gold under republic (assuming all citizens are working roaded tiles, witch they should, if you manage your empire right)
That is still 4 more gold you can use to pay unit support than size 6 cities under monarchy (2 free units for size 6)