Money troubles

[mystikmind2005]

Hi

I just installed the 1.7 vanilla patch and find myself the master of a banana republic on my first game (noble level, marathon, ballanced map).

Early on i got about 4 techs from huts which was lucky, then after expanding a little the stupid Astec declared war on me as soon as they developed their Jaguar warriors. Their Jaguar warriors were insufficient to dislodge my archers from their cities, then i came down with axemen and wiped them out.

I found i had to destroy all their cities because my economy was running horribly backwards. Then after i started running down the conquest war chest i had to turn off my science to zero and move all the city tile workers off production tiles to huts and other gold tiles. Then i had to disband my entire army.

Yea so i did all the above and now i am sitting here with no science, no production, no troops and STILL no income!!! I dont even have any cities that are all that far away from the capital either. I guess i will just have to wait for an enemy to come and finish me off.

What the hell is wrong with this new 1.7 patch, this economy is insane????

 

[Civ Khan]

Wow, that sounds horrible.I'm sorry I can't help as I am running BTS now.I hope someone else can help you.

 

[mystikmind2005]

Before installing the patch, i found that i did not have any trouble with money unless i started having too many cities far from the capital. Obviously i know how to expand with this in mind, so i don't know what is going wrong after installing this update?

This is what i have.... i have 7 first step cities surrounding my capital and two second step cities after that. I do still hold the Aztec capital which would be about a 4th step city. I am thinking i will have to abandon the Aztec capital to barbarians tho and then i will probably be able to afford some units before somone declares war on me. I do not forsee being able to have any science at all for quite some time tho so it seems i am doomed no matter what i do.

Edit: 'Step' meaning consecutive cities in distance from capital not size.

 

[JackOfClubs]

You have 10 cities before Code of Laws? That sounds like a problem.

I'm not sure what you mean by "first step city". Does that mean it is as close as possible (ie 2 tiles) away, or do you mean as close as possible without overlapping the fat cross (about 4-5 tiles away depending)?

City maintenance isn't only a function of distance. It also takes number of cities into account. At Noble level I usually only built 3 cities on my own (including the starting location), then took 3 more from enemies (either other civs or barbs) while teching toward Code of Laws. Maybe one or two more in rare cases when it was just too good to pass up, but only if it could pay for itself in relatively short order. This works up until Monarch. At higher difficulties, I usually just build one city after the capital in order to secure

Build courthoueses in every city with 4 or greater maintenance as soon as you have destroyed the enemy civ. You can actually start building sooner if it is obvious that you already have enough troops.

Only after you have the necessary techs to control maintenance should you start expanding beyond 6-7 cities. Getting Currency and other financial techs will help in the mid-game.

 

[mystikmind2005]

My cities will be usually 3 tiles apart with limited overlap.

Thanks for your advice, i think i understand what went wrong now.

I usually rush currency technology as quick as i can in my games as i expand. So by the time money starts becomming a problem, i am seeing markets appear in my more advanced cities. But in this case the Aztecs attacked me early in the game before i had that technology. It was pretty close tho, i got half way through mathematics before my science ground to a halt.

So going by what you say, there is clearly no salvaging this particular game. I have lost!

 

[mystikmind2005]

I still havn't determined an efficient tech path to follow in my games, any suggestions welcome?

In the beginning i will research according to the best bonus tile near my capital, and then i will want archery. Then i will want mining and after that i will play it by ear.

If i sense i am falling a bit behind in technology then i will give up on any hope of founding any religion, but if i feel i am a bit ahead then i can expect to found at least 4 religions - yea this is definately an 'all or nothing' game!!

 

[MrCynical]

You could post a save game so we can get a good look at what's going on. Sounds like you've expanded too fast without getting crucial techs like Currency and Code of Laws to help support the new cities.

 

[Civ Khan]

I does sound alot like too much expansion in a short time.Courthouses are your friend in civ 4 and you should try to get the Holy Shrines for religions.

 

[mystikmind2005]

I also discovered that game was on Prince level! I have never played prince level before!! I dunno how i managed to dominate in the beggining?? Gees the AI's must have all had pretty drab starting locations!

I started a new game on the inland sea map on Noble level and held back my expansion.

The first problem i encountered was when the Roman AI decided to run around the very last squares at map edge of my boarder cities in an attempt to shove a city in behind me. I found this most vexing indeed, especially since they had ignored perfectly good unused terrain over on their own side, so i had a little war with them. I attacked them again shortly after that for the exact same reason, then my boarders expanded, so case closed.

After a couple of other small AI initiated wars, everything settled down and defensive pacts signed. Then i discovered railroad.... carnt build railroad?? No coal! Ah um, havn't they ever heard of wood?? Yea i mean well wood is such an obscure combustable material, it has only been used as A substitute for coal since, i dunno, cavemen invented fire! so i guess it was an easy thing to miss!!!!!! (extreme sarcasm alert).

Ah the romans have coal.... WAR,,,, and now everyone hates me!!! hehehe this is fun!!!

It is very dramatic to see what happens when you declare war with various defensive pacts in play.

Edit: oh by the way, i got the coal!!

 

[buffalo6542]

well thats a happy ending just like all stories should have.

 

[Civ Khan]

Its good to see that it was only a difficulty problem and as buffalo said, it was a happy ending.

 

[mystikmind2005]

So how do i make a save game available?

If any Veterans want a challenge, i can make that 'bankrupt' game save available?

Anyone choosing to play the game will find themselves in charge of the most territory, but no standing army to speak of and a big lag in technology. In your favour is the recent gang war started up against your nearest neighbour, the Maltaneese who foolhardilly grabbed several Barbarian cities which asumably sent them broke!

 

[mystikmind2005]

Its good to see that it was only a difficulty problem and as buffalo said, it was a happy ending.

Sorry, it had no happy ending, no unhappy ending either, i just realised that the technology lag was way too well guarded by money for me to be able to turn things around any time soon, and i was not in the mood for such a serious challenge, so i started a new game as described.

 

[Yxklyx]

Can you give cities away to another Civ?

What tech do you need to give cities away?

I wish the game did something when this situation occurred - like your farthest cities become Barbarian.

 

[mystikmind2005]

Can you give cities away to another Civ?

What tech do you need to give cities away?

I wish the game did something when this situation occurred - like your farthest cities become Barbarian.

In real life I don't think money has ever caused any primative cociety in the history of this planet to dispand their entire standing army and be incapable of advancing technologically or starting new settlements. But aside from the ickiness of it being unrealistic, i do feel it adds to the fun of the game.

 

[Emac78]

Before expanding beyond five cities you need to make code of laws and currency a priority. Courthouses cut the maintenance costs in your cities which is what is draining your economy. It sometimes is worth it to whip courthouses as soon as you can to stop the maintenance drain. In addition to the courthouses, in your case you would want to switch to Caste System and put some scientists/or merchants to work. This will give you an instant influx of gold and beakers. In fact, when your economy is dead, use your specialists to give you gold or beakers

Currency is also important not just because of the markets but also it gives each of your cities an additional trade route. That may sound weak but if you have five cities, that is at least another +5 gold as long as you have roads or some way to connect your five cities. With open borders with other civs, that could be more like +10-15 gold.

Put the two techs together, and it should be obvious why you would want to have these before you expand past five cities. Other important factors to establishing an early economy, is build cottages, spread religions for happiness, shrine income, and monastaries for additional science. Tech Monarchy for Hereditary Rule which will allow you to work more tiles in every city. As long as you have enough garrison units, your cities can grow to the growth cap. Larger, happy cities equal more commerce. If you are lucky enough to get the Pyramaids switch to Representation if you have enough high food cities and put as many specialists to work as possible. Pillage when you are at war, those cottage/towns reap large rewards.

 

[mystikmind2005]

Good advice Emac78

Actually i never even looked at specialists, i just assumed my tech level was too low for there to be any allowances in that regard, this is an attitude borne from playing civ3 where there is nothing at all i can do with specialists early on, but to be honest, i have no idea what i can do with them in civ4 early on?

 

[AnitaGaribaldi]

Specialists are the key. Running scientists you can research even at 0% science. Somehow I don't have more problem with money, I just know how to get it. For early rush I have this priorities:

1. Bronze Working + worker techs
2. Pottery - cottages
3. Writing - libraries - help me research even at 0% science
4. Alphabet - let's me fill in many techs and I can build research
5. Drama - the AI does not go for it, many times I can get good cash/techs for it. It depends if the AI already knows Currency or not, the number of AI the amount of money they have. I usually can get mathematics and other techs with Drama. Once I could research Priesthood, Monarchy, CoL and Currency at 100% slider, thanks the over 1000 cash I got (plus Mathematics and other techs).
6. Currency and CoL

The early rush puts me behind techs, but smart researching gets me close to parity pretty fast. I play Monarch/Emperor.

 

[mystikmind2005]

Specialists are the key. Running scientists you can research even at 0% science. Somehow I don't have more problem with money, I just know how to get it. For early rush I have this priorities:

1. Bronze Working + worker techs
2. Pottery - cottages
3. Writing - libraries - help me research even at 0% science
4. Alphabet - let's me fill in many techs and I can build research
5. Drama - the AI does not go for it, many times I can get good cash/techs for it. It depends if the AI already knows Currency or not, the number of AI the amount of money they have. I usually can get mathematics and other techs with Drama. Once I could research Priesthood, Monarchy, CoL and Currency at 100% slider, thanks the over 1000 cash I got (plus Mathematics and other techs).
6. Currency and CoL

The early rush puts me behind techs, but smart researching gets me close to parity pretty fast. I play Monarch/Emperor.

Hmmm well i prefer to have tech trading off so i can extend the game a bit since i am currently aiming to get some high level unit promotions, which is somthing i never yet achieved before the game is over.

 

[Civ Khan]

@mystik
I was talking about the new game you had started when I said it had a "happy ending." Considering you didn't get blown off the planet.