Mongol Buffs: Gather Round!

[Amenhotep7]

I need help on my 'Rise of the Mongols' scenario. I'm using Mongoloid Cow's map. I need to know things. I need to know:

-Major civs at that time
-What Civs should be represented (I have Ottomans, Mongols, Hsi-Hsia, Chin, Song, Various Indian states, Kwarzam...)
-Resource placement (Or who had access to what)
-City Placement (Or major cities. Hey, we can't turn this into the scenario development thread, can we? )
-Leaders at the time
-Info on the militaries

Basically, just blog your guts out about Mongols.

 

[Amenhotep7]

Oh, and I need to know of trade routes and roads...

 

[blindside]

I don't think the Ottomans were around at that point. But there were other Turkish tribes and such ruling over the Middle East.

You could probably have the Tatars, Qara-Khitai, Hsi-Hsia, Chin Dynasty, Southern Song Dynasty, Khwarazm, Persians, Russians, and Seljuks in other parts of the Middle East.
The Tatars were the enemy tribe to the one that Genghis Khan came from and his first foe. They weren't anything major but were one of hte bigger tribes in the region. The Qara Khitai was a larger Turkish/Mongol kingdom,empire slightly west of where the Mongols came from. Further west was the Khwarazm empire. To the South were the Hsi-Hsia which I believe was a Buddhist kingdom. To the southeast was the Chin/Kin Dynasty and further south was the Southern Song dynasty. The Mongols never completed their invasion of the Song dynasty till later but I believe they managed to raize Beijing in the north.

 

[greyghost]

Military-wise, I believe the Mongol army was composed primarily of mounted archers. Each soldier was armed with two bows, each with greater range than the English Longbow. In addition to the bows, each soldier carried other weapons including an arm-mounted dagger, a sword, and a lasso. Each soldier was armed with leather armor impenetrable by weaker arrows, and wore silk under their clothes to protect against weapons which may have pierced the armor.

I've just finished writing a report on the military aspect of the Mongols for school, and this is a very short note from my essay. I hope some of that information is useful, and correct for that matter. If you like what you see, I'll post more.

 

[Mongoloid Cow]

How long do you want me to talk for

The first thing is deciding which year to start in... the best choices if you're using my map would be 1206 when Genghis Khan united the Mongols or 1213 when many borders had become temporarily settled. The date determines which civs to put in, although the most important ones would be: Mongolia, Naimans (not the Tatars), Khwarazm, the three Chinese Empires individually, the Rus, and Hungary.

Lesser ones would include: the East Roman Empires (Trapezumtine Empire, Nicaean Empire, Epirus, mainly), Latin States (Latin Empire and Crusader States), Italian States (the anti-HRE forces, Venice, Genoa, etc.), Germany (the pro-HRE forces), Polish States (Mazovia, Czersk, Polonia, Little Poland, Silesian states, etc.), Lithuania, France, Papal States, the Caliphates (the one in Baghdad, the one in Egypt), the Turkish states (both in Anatolia and Russia), Nubian / Abbyssinian states (Dongola and what you), Delhi and other Indian states, SE Asian states (Khmer, Champa, Ava, Pagan, etc.), Korea and Japan.

 

[airrahul]

I can't remember if it was the Abbasid or the Ummayad caliphate the ruled over the Arabic-speaking lands at that time. I'm pretty sure it was the Abbasids but not 100% sure. Their capital at Baghdad, which was by many accounts the greatest city in the world at that time, was razed to the ground by the Mongols under Hulagu Khan, with women, children, and even house pets all killed. Furthermore, irrigation works were so thoroughly destroyed that I've read the region even to this day hasn't fully recovered from the Mongol pillaging. The Delhi sultanate would be important to include as the Mongols gave it a good thrashing. The Russian states as well would be important as the Mongols conquered those too.

 

[Mongoloid Cow]

The Abassids had their capital at Baghdad, and at this stage they did rule some land (previously the Caliphs were only puppets of legitimacy to whoever had the biggest army). There was also the Ayyubid Caliphate in Egypt, which was completely independent of the Abbasids of Baghdad.

 

[Gagliaudo]

@MongoloidCow:
Really nice geo-historical overview to show principal civs
Perhaps Amenhotep7 could put together some civs (Poland+Hungary, example; if there's only a little Europe in the map - I didn't see it - it could be put together all Western Christendom states as "Europeans". Just a idea ).
Don't recall surely, maybe there was the Bulgar-state on Volga (ally to Kievian Rus', against Mongols), and even the Cumans/Polovçy more southern, around N-E BlackSea coast.

 

[Mongoloid Cow]

I made the map he said he's going to use, IIRC there was enough room to put Hungary in with its' borders of the time. Hungary must be it's own civ IMO for several reasons...
- Hungary was originally going to be the location of the White Horde, but it was moved to Siberia when Ogadai died.
- Hungary was a very strong and individual nation, you could not join it with any other civ.
- Hungary somehow survived the Mongol invasion, few other states could.
- Hungary was also embroiled in a constant war with the Italian states for control of the wealthy Dalmatian coast. That should not be safe for the Italians IMO.

Poland could only really be united with the Russians, as they were both divided and governed similarly.

 

[Gagliaudo]

@Mongoloid Cow: no doubt about your considerations about Hungary (I could think you're Magiar... but no), they're correct, tough. I was only wondering about the map, I didn't know if Asia was too much bigger than Europe, involving to choose more Asian civs than European ones. That's all.

 

[Adler17]

Well Silesia was part of the HRE. Nevertheless the Mongols came until Liegnitz, where they met a German- Polish knights army. These knights were slaughtered. Only the death of the Khan in Mongolia prevented Europe to become occupied by the Mongols.

Adler

 

[Mongoloid Cow]

Amenhotep I think would have to be a little creative to fit in Hungary, and no I'm not Hungarian

Adler17, I wasn't sure on when Silesia became part of the HRE. They broke off from Poland in 1138, and by about 1200 they had divided into Upper and Lower Silesia.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

I made the map he said he's going to use, IIRC there was enough room to put Hungary in with its' borders of the time. Hungary must be it's own civ IMO for several reasons...
- Hungary was originally going to be the location of the White Horde, but it was moved to Siberia when Ogadai died.
- Hungary was a very strong and individual nation, you could not join it with any other civ.
- Hungary somehow survived the Mongol invasion, few other states could.
- Hungary was also embroiled in a constant war with the Italian states for control of the wealthy Dalmatian coast. That should not be safe for the Italians IMO.

Certainly. I also read that the Magyars used to go on plundering raids deep into W Europe, until they're stopped by the French (?), and also when they converted to Christianity. They'd make for an interesting nation to play.

Poland could only really be united with the Russians, as they were both divided and governed similarly.

Wasn't Poland too a powerful aristocratic state at this time? Or was it a few centuries after?

 

[Knight-Dragon]

The Tatars were the enemy tribe to the one that Genghis Khan came from and his first foe. They weren't anything major but were one of hte bigger tribes in the region.

They're the blood enemies of GK's clan - they poisoned Yesugei (GK's father).

The Qara Khitai was a larger Turkish/Mongol kingdom,empire slightly west of where the Mongols came from.

Actually, they're the last remnants of the Khitan Liao empire which used to rule Beijing, Mongolia and W Manchuria. The last Khitan prince, fleeing the advancing Jurchens, fled west with Khitan garrison troops fr W Mongolia into Xinjiang and occupied the region.

To the South were the Hsi-Hsia which I believe was a Buddhist kingdom.

They're also a Tangut kingdom - related to Tibetans.

The Mongols never completed their invasion of the Song dynasty till later but I believe they managed to raize Beijing in the north.

Beijing wasn't a part of the Nan-Song - the Song had contracted to the Yangzi and the Huai river valleys. The Mongols didn't touch the Song until much later - they're even allied with the Chinese against the Jurchen Jin (who're enemies to both) for a time.

 

[Adler17]

The Magyars were powerfull and raided Europe until 961 when king Otto the Great of Germany could destroy a Hungarian army on the Amselfeld Near Augsburg. Since this defeat the Hungarians settled down and became Christians. They were a proud nation, which could not stop the Mongols. Hell, if the Khan didn´t die they would have crushed the European armies and whole Europe and Asia would have been under his control (without Japan).

Adler

 

[Amenhotep7]

So, guys, how about summarizing the civs you mentioned. The text is mind-boggling!

I'm beginning this scenario just before GK declares war on the Chin Dynasty.

So far, the civs I see needing to be depicted:

-Hungary
-Russian states (Need a map)
-Italian States
-Vikings???
-Magyars
-Byzantines
-Abassids
-Khwarzam
-Indian states
-Chin
-Song
-Hsi-Hsia
-Tibet

Any more?

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Kara-Khitai, as had been mentioned. They occupied modern W Xinjiang and across the border.

Song shld be Nan-Song; the original Song had been extinguished by the Jin.

There's also the SE Asian states like Burma, Annam etc. Khubilai sent armies, but they weren't very successful.

Oh, and you must add the proto-Thai kingdom of Dali (in modern Yunnan). The Mongols did conquer this and made it into a prince's fief.

 

[Vrylakas]

To begin with, here is an article I wrote about the Mongol invasions of Eastern Europe 1241-42 that may be helpful.

Certainly. I also read that the Magyars used to go on plundering raids deep into W Europe, until they're stopped by the French (?), and also when they converted to Christianity. They'd make for an interesting nation to play.

The Germans, actually. The Magyars were decisively defeated at Augsburg/Lechfeld in 955 by the man who would become Otto I, the founder of the Ottonian empire that would morph later into the Holy Roman Empire.

Wasn't Poland too a powerful aristocratic state at this time? Or was it a few centuries after?

That was later. Poland in 1241-42 was fractured into several small statelets with no central authority - which made it all the easier for the Mongols. In 1138 the dying Polish king, Boleslaw Krzywousty/the Bent-Mouthed divided the kingdom between his three sons, who promptly began fighting one another once Dad died. Poland would be without any real central government from 1138 until c. 1310, when a father and son team (Wladyslaw Lokietek and Kazimierz) would re-unite the country.

 

[Amenhotep7]

Would this map be accurate? It' be a good starting point for city placemet:

 

[Amenhotep7]

And this brings up another point: What would the capitals of these nations be?