Moo1: Tech for taking on Guardian

[OlorinStormcrow]

I'm wondering what kinds of tech people wait for before taking on the Guardian. How do you construct a Guardian-killer fleet, and do you find the designs to be effective against AIs as well, or are they too Guardian specific?

When you respond, please let us know what level of Guardian you are talking about, or note any differences in your strategy for different difficulty levels.

I usually play at Impossible level, where the Guardian has 10,000 hp, Shield 9, Death Ray, Stellar Converter, Plasma Torpedo, and Scatter Pack X. It also has a lightning shield.

If I want to easily kill the Guardian, I wait for Sub-space teleporters. Since they automatically give you initiative, it's a simple matter of determining how many of a given beam weapon you'll need to punch 10K damage through the shields. I believe the guardian has a computer level of 9, but by the time I'm at teleporters, I'm usually close to that myself. I usually go with a large size ship to fit a scanner and teleporter, then fill it up with beams. Once I have enough ships, I go for it. That usually means between 100 and 200 large ships. If I miscalculate, or roll badly on the damage, I'll lose a few to the Death ray and stellar converter, but I'll get my second shot off before the scatter packs and plasma torps hit.

On any guardian assault, I'll also take as much of the rest of my fleet as possible, in case my design doesn't work as well as I thought, and I need a little more firepower to finish it off. Large enough flights of torps or missiles will do some damage through the lightning shield, so they are not useless, just much less effective compared to beams.

Recently, I've tried going in with large fleets of small or medium ships, armed with 1-2 beams, no shields, and high manuever. High energy focus is great too. It helps ships get in range. The major problem with smaller ships is that they are slaughtered by the scatter packs. Dodging them sometimes works, or using multiple designs so that one stack can be dodging missiles while the other is free to attack. With HEF, it's much easier to dodge missiles and still get shots off. What kinds of ships do you use?

In my current game, I'm considering trying to attack the guardian with hard beams (8-12 damage, 1/2 shielding). Does anyone know whether the Guardians shields would be rounded down to 4 or 5? 3-7 vs 4-8 damage range makes a difference. Especially since I'm working on finishing BC7, so I'll be facing a disadvantage in computer level.

Share your insights! Regale us with tales of Guardians slain.


*Oddly enough: One of the reasons that I should go after the Guardian this game...the Orion system is infested with Pirates! Yes, trade has been disrupted for almost a century by Pirates sheltering in the shadow of the Guardian. Just how they managed to strike a deal with the mighty ship to allow them to operate out of the Orion system is unknown.

 

[vmxa]

It does not matter to me if I am playing impossible or any level as I do not go for Orion till the game is almost over. I guess because if I do finish the tech I like to be able to get something from it.

I would worry that if I went there sooner, I would get a tech that was in my list and therefore missout on a additional tech. The planet is nice, but either I am busy holding what I have or taken whatt hey have, so it can wait.

The rare exception is, if it looks like I will not be getting eiher soil/adv soil or atmospheric. Then if not one else has them either, I may go ahead and hope to get one from Orion.

The guardian goes down easy be it 10l or 8k as by then I will send over a fleet it can do nothing about.

 

[OlorinStormcrow]

It does make sense to go towards the end from the tech perspective. I tend to go pretty late in I'm playing a Huge/Impossible game, since the research goes faster, and I'm not usually in a secure enough position to devote resources to Guardian-killing until I'm near the end of the tech tree. If I get sub-space teleporters, I consider going for it, as the boost I'll get from the techs is very useful.

I'll also make a push for it if I'm in trouble; like if the Psilons are running away. Often they will have untouchable planetary bases compared to my weapons tech, and being guaranteed the death ray means that I'll be able to go on offense after the Guardian. The death ray has turned the tide in a few Final War situations for me.

On a small map, I generally never finish the techs, so an earlier boost of techs from Orion can really push up the tech levels, and let you fit more of your existing tech onto ships.

 

[vmxa]

On small maps I just milk the game. That is I will not eliminate al teh other civs, until I have all planets, save one. Somewhere near the point that they have 3 or 4 left between them, I then go.

I will have the techs done by then, but hey when I played Monopoly as kid I tried to milk the game. I would offer large sums of money in return for them not quiting, when then could not pay the fine. I would do that till I owned all the land or they would quit.

I do the same in Civ and Moo2 most of the time. I mean wwhy end the game quickly, just going to start another eventually anyway.

 

[OlorinStormcrow]

I do tend to draw out the game too. I'll often abstain rather than take an election win the first few times I could do so. Once I reach the point where I no longer fear any of the AIs, or even a Final War, I'll either go on a glassing spree or just take an election win.

Most of the time, I'd rather start a new game, since the early and mid-game is where I find the most excitement. Though every few games, I'll still go the extermination route. It's a different form of fun to rampage around the galaxy with multiple stacks of doom.

I'm also starting to enforce some self-imposed rules like no setting two AIs into a war that I don't participate in. I require that I'm either already at war with the target before I request another AI join me, or that I have an attack fleet on the way (since I can't simply declare war through diplo). The other one is that I always have to vote for myself in elections (if nominated), except that if I have enough votes to win, I am allowed to abstain in order to continue the game. I feel like abstaining or voting *against* myself shows a lack of confidence in my ability to lead the galaxy, plus its a cheap way to keep good relations with your opponent--there's no risk to you except that you might miscalculate and elect the AI by mistake

Now when two AIs are nominated, then I'm free to vote for either, or abstain.

 

[vmxa]

One of the things I like about Moo2 is that you can take Repulsive and then you cannot do anything except declare. No trades, do demands, no anything.

 

[Zed-F]

I tend to prefer not to draw out or milk the game. I also tend to prefer to play small or medium Impossible maps where the tech pace does not advance quite as quickly in the end game. Thus, I usually don't bother conquering Orion, except in rare cases where one of the AIs is doing very well for some reason, and I am missing some key component I need to seriously go on the offensive against them (like, say, a decent bomb.) Occasionally I will milk a game and snag Orion because I can, but this is more the exception than the rule.

When I do go after Orion, I usually build a stack or stacks totalling about 2000-3000 small beamers with high maneuver, a good computer, and Megabolt or better cannons. (A large is what, 600+BC? And a small is usually around 20? So that's a significantly smaller economic investment than your fleet of 100-200 larges, but not a hugely smaller investment.) By the time miniaturization is good enough to let me pull that off, it's usually getting toward the last quarter of the tech tree or so. Trying to go for Orion prior to that on Impossible will generally require more investment in ships than I'm typically comfortable making.

 

[neutrino]

i also tend to hold off on taking Orion. in the endgame, i am usually stacked up technologically, economically, and militarily, so defeating the Orion guardian to acquire Death Ray does not significantly enhance my military power. i wish the MOO editor also allows tweaking the guardian; it is simply no match against a massive fleet armed w/ late-tech weapons.

the only reason i would want Death Ray is to build brutal huge ships that can be unleashed for galactic genocide. (like the Death Star in the 'Star Wars' series.)

i, too, sort of implement self-imposed rules (once i do not have to worry about my survival!), in order to milk out the game as much as possible:

1. i usually limit the size of my total fleet strength, and keep it diversified. i might also regularly scrap one or more designs to simulate rearmament cycles, even though the ships that i scrap are already more than adequate for my needs. i minimise spending on planetary defense; w/ decent total fleet strength + Star Gate, i can defend my planets like a fire brigade.

2. even though i have more than enough military power to win the game through brutality, i regularly get involved diplomatically. when one or more CPs propose trade, i accept it. if the weakest CP proposes alliance, i accept it. towards weaker CPs, i offer tributes (usually BCs, but sometimes technology). i never attack first.

3. i limit the size of my empire, as long as i rank first in population, technology, and production. i keep an eye on the CPs. if one of them becomes disproportionately powerful, i might attack him. sort of like maintaining the 'balance of power', while i am the 'galaxy's policeman' ... LOL.

 

[Yuri2356]

When I've reached a point in the mid/late game where I can hold my enemies at bay, and I've just stepped up to some important new generation of technologies. (Fresh Beams, Engines, Missiles, or a really good accessory) I'll prepare my next generation of designs, and then assemble my old fleet for a strike against the Guardian as I start to produce the next wave. (This works well for me because I tend to have a fairly simple med-large-huge trio of designs for ships-of-the-line) If they can take the Guardian, all the better. If not, they give me a good Idea of how much farther I need to go.

 

[neutrino]

as for the business of taking on the Guardian ....

1. by the time i take on the Guardian, my weapons tech pretty well stacked. (i.e., Zyro Missile, Disruptor, Stellar Coverter, Plasma Torp)

2. except for the fighters, my bigger ships carry High Energy Focus, so they can pepper the Guardian from distance.

3. if i have enormous number of old fighters, they may be included in my anti-Guardian fleet to be used as cannon-fodders. (yeah ... the Guardian fires loads of missiles!)

4. if i lack cannon-fodders, i would then have larges and huges w/ anti-missile devices to lessen the Guardian's missile attacks. (i.e., Zyro Shield, Lightning Shield, Displacement Device)

5. my huges max out on shields and include Autorepair to improve their survival ... just in case.

6. the CPs are highly unlikely to take on the Guardian any time soon. this allows me to build up a powerful anti-Guardian fleet at a leisurely pace. because i am allowed to build up so much, my anti-Guardian fleet usually wipes out the Guardian within a single round.

7. this gets rather boring, though, because there is only one Guardian. it would have been more interesting, had the game designer programmed the Guardian as an armada. for example, how about a Guardian fleet instead: 2 x 32000 fighters, 1 x 8000 mediums, 1 x 800 larges, 1 x 100 huges, and 1 x 10 special huges armed w/ Death Ray. meanwhile, the entire fleet is stacked w/ goodies from the upper-end of the tech trees?

 

[Zed-F]

Why?

If you want to face those kinds of fleets, play in a huge galaxy on impossible. The AI players will throw them at you all the time if you let the game run long enough.

I don't think the Guardian is intended to provide that sort of very-end-game challenge. Rather it's intended as one of several ways to break open a stagnant game, and give the player that does it a temporary advantage that might be parlayed into a winning position.

 

[neutrino]

If you want to face those kinds of fleets, play in a huge galaxy on impossible. The AI players will throw them at you all the time if you let the game run long enough.

i am playing a new game now. i went through an editor to tweak some of the starting races -- i play the Humans, while the AI runs the Darlocks, the Alkaris, the Silicoids, the Klackons, and the Bulrathis. interestingly, the Darlocks, the Silicoids, and the Alkaris are expansionistic. the Darlocks are no big deal, but the Alkaris and the Silicoids combined controls just about the 3/5 of the galaxy. the Humans are stuck w/ defensive struggle for now -- they control only 8 planets (but most of them are quite wealthy) and find themselves squeezed from the three sides by the Darlocks, the Silicoids, and the Alkaris. there will be massive bloodbath soon ......