Moonraker

[FiveRings]

It would be very nice and advantageous to have you in the team, V, so I'll happily postpone my TS. Welcome!

That comment about the HPs producing 4 gpt was very helpful, indeed! I haven't considered this way of converting hammers into cash.

Right now I can't look at the save, but the progress is evident and breathtaking, thank you, W! I hope we won't lose our town. Hopefully, V's hand is as light as yours, to use a somewhat obscure Bulgarian expression, which means "lucky" but cannot be easily construed that way as far as I know Bulgarian culture.

Don't we have some workers that could be redirected to road to the North? Good communications are of utmost priority in times of war, especially an empire war (oh, those Romans!)

W, I'd have kept the Tao shrine for both the potential gpts later on and to avoid the negative diplo impact (I have no idea whether the latter is as heavy as it is said, as I have never razed a shrine...), and that might be important as we don't know how the rest of the AIs thrive, and, on top of that, we have to win through Space Victory, but what is done is done. I guess you might have been spellbound by V short-term efficiency reasoning...

 

[woopdeedoo]

W, I'd have kept the Tao shrine for both the potential gpts later on and to avoid the negative diplo impact (I have no idea whether the latter is as heavy as it is said, as I have never razed a shrine...), and that might be important as we don't know how the rest of the AIs thrive, and, on top of that, we have to win through Space Victory, but what is done is done. I guess you might have been spellbound by V short-term efficiency reasoning...

It was merely a Holy city. It wasn't shrined. To be honest, Taoism was founded there as the final HA was standing his ground against my mini-stack. I thought about it for a while and briefly considered saving and deferring to the roster. Whether I made the right call is up for debate, I guess, but we wanted to raze Dortmund due to its' bad placement for some time and I didn't think that just because it was a (un-shrined) Holy City made it worth keeping.

 

[FiveRings]

It was merely a Holy city. It wasn't shrined. To be honest, Taoism was founded there as the final HA was standing his ground against my mini-stack. I thought about it for a while and briefly considered saving and deferring to the roster. Whether I made the right call is up for debate, I guess, but we wanted to raze Dortmund due to its' bad placement for some time and I didn't think that just because it was a (un-shrined) Holy City made it worth keeping.

Well, we live in a world without Tao, now, so we don't know the right way...anyway. On a more serious vein: I still think the advantages of keeping it could overweigh in the long run but that's settled already and I just comment on it to lay down my thinking and get some feedback for future use, and nothing too much to worry about.

I would appreciate if our top experts provide some insight about the specification between a holy city's as compared to a shrined holy city's razing 's impact.

Could Sid's minions be so stupid indeed, I wonder looking at Dortmund's ruins?!

 

[vranasm]

about the holy city... too was a bit surprised with razing it, but if the situation was the way woops says I think it was right call probably.

holy city if it isn't shrined is not that much different from normal city. Biggest difference is the culture (+5) from the religion and some modifier for natural spreading of the religion.

Problem with this late religion is twofold
1) they will be not spread (in this case actually tao was probably in only 1 city - holy city, max 2 since late religions generate 1 free Missionary)

2) they usually can't autospread (budh, hindu, juda are usually everywhere, even confu can beat tao)

3) popping Great Prophet on purpose for shrine blocks other good great persons which are more important in early game (GS academy, GS Philo bulb, GS Edu bulb, GM for trade mission - upgrade troops, heavy deficit research), so as you can see you almost never want Great prophet in first 150 turns
after those turns you should be big enough that using Great Prophet on shrine with religion not spread could be inferior to using the Great Prophet for golden age.

4) spreading religion is very costly and aside from spreading AP religion is almost never worth it (will take the number out of head, but I think that missionary is around 80H and can fail, which according to 2 is serious issue, since the more religions the bigger chance of fail).

Your best bet is to look who built Mahabodhi or the hindu shrine (not remembering the name) and just capture it, since Budh is usually founded by some religion nut and it's almost 100% chance that the religion will be everywhere... Few days ago I captured 40g Mahabodhi :-D. Such AI has mark stating "attack me, kill me" all over them ;-).

 

[vranasm]

guys i arrived today a bit too late for playing the TS, so i will have to postpone it for tomorrow.

Not sure if the post on the last page is sufficient of plan or you want more details?
I noted we need some road infrastructure and hope that I will do some progress on this (that you can consider as part of the plan now)

 

[Cam_H]

vranasm,

Thanks for agreeing to join in (this turnset only or ongoing?).

Personally, I'm pretty well in agreement with your plan.

I'd champion the completion of the Prague Market (whether by natural build or whipping) and then getting its number of citizens up. Possibly consider a Forge whip. Toy with the idea of Market > Forge > The Colossus. Squeeze in a Scientist or two when sensible.

I'd interrupt the War Elephant in Monte Carlo for a Stable, then finish it off and continue to churn out War Elephants for a while there while we're still at war and they're considered useful.

Beijing should be able to get something better than an Archer up. I'd go Forge > Market or Build Wealth.

I must say that I'm not a big fan of either Gallic Warriors or Archers right now, and would stick with Shock War Elephants which are less vulnerable to Spears than Gallic Warriors are to Axes. If you're looking for a cheaper unit than War Elephants, I'd toss Horse Archers into the equation, which can get to the front lines a lot quicker than Gallic Warriors. Likewise, even as city garrisons, Archers have pretty well had their day and I'd consider Chariots instead as cheap junky place-holders which with Barracks + Stables at least can come out as Medic units and as two-movers can relocate promptly between our cities.

woopdeedoo herself said that Worker management wasn't good, and I'm sure we can do better there.

I'm supportive of the proposed swap to Representation. Our cities are quite happy as it is, and we always have the whip if there's discontent.

(Please advise if you intend to implement any 'wholesale' changes like shifting the Palace or knocking over Cottages!)

Best of luck!

 

[vranasm]

changing cottages to farms is not part of the plan (and I think the cottages I would like to change can't be changed due to lack of CS) ;-) and changing palace not too.

It isn't that bad of idea to get some HA's as cheaper units, but I think GW's or Axes are a lot cheaper and with ~12 cats we just need more finishers and WE's are too expensive.

I think our front cities (Beijing for example) have to go for a while with military (archer can be good as MP in new cities, they have bonus in city defense at least) because plainly they are much closer to the front then our back

I was thinking that Prague could run wealth for few turns before we finish some of the new courthouses queued, that market could be finished a little bit later.

I will look at the Monte Carlo situation with new eyes when playing. Stables are good and all, but with cats we need numbers not quality (or at least that's my feeling) ;-).

Hmm right now not sure with tech, but I don't think I will be able to tech at all...maybe switch into CS?

 

[woopdeedoo]

At 0% tech, we are losing money.

 

[vranasm]

At 0% tech, we are losing money.

bigger problem is that we have money only for 4 turns ;-) so that's why I insist on building wealth in cap to get 1 more turn... would be happier if it would be ~10 turns, the recover would be a bit easier. This way it's a bit more panic.

4 turns don't give me enough time to capture another city from Biz.

 

[FiveRings]

bigger problem is that we have money only for 4 turns ;-) so that's why I insist on building wealth in cap to get 1 more turn... would be happier if it would be ~10 turns, the recover would be a bit easier. This way it's a bit more panic.

4 turns don't give me enough time to capture another city from Biz.

You might also use anarchy to get one more turn - and it could actually add a few gold in the treasury and if this is with a switch to the Caste System, putting some merchants to good use, as suggested earlier by Cam? I don't have access to the save right now, so I am talking off my hat, sorry if this is all nonsense. What about building wealth in some other cities as well? And/or killing some workers? Don't they count as units, too?

 

[Cam_H]

We don't get anarchy, as we're Spiritual.

There's no doubt that we need to 'Build Wealth' in several cities to get us through for a while as the Courthouses go up elsewhere.

With the swap into Representation, running a few Merchants could sure be a possibility to edge our tech' along while 'keeping our head above water', but as you've noted; that would mean swapping into Caste and out of Slavery, which arguably has a big 'downside' as Slavery is a really useful tool for us at the moment. Personally I'd stick with Slavery and whip out Courthouses and any other important stuff.

I'd rather not get to the point of killing off our own units (esp. Workers) to reduce unit maintenance while building cheap units in other cities! I'm very optimistic that we can dig our way out of this 'Romanesque Trap' that we're in without too much pain.

I'm not sure at what point that we're to stop the war with Germany. Total annihilation? On capture of Berlin? Judgement call when units are simply too depleted to continue? Other?

 

[woopdeedoo]

I reckon that since we have committed to this course of action, we may as well finish it. Bismarck only has so many cities and I'm pretty sure we can take him out with relative ease. BTW, we will need some more settlers to fill the land gaps after the war. Then I guess focusing on our economy will be the order of the day...

 

[vranasm]

we need capture money imo

I wouldn't switch into caste since how I will build the CH's in caste?

I don't think we will strike... will take some MM to avoid it probably, but as I remember the tiles are good (some good cottages not run, since food is imo more important), I just switched to grow cities a bit into happy caps and easier whips.

Once I whip 3-4 CH's in eastern cities it will start to look better.
Capital grows in 2 into another hill, basically meaning 3 more gpt (or 4?), we're now -40...

should be interesting :-D

 

[FiveRings]

Yeah, it was off a very tall hat that I spoke last time! To my tiny credit, I was reading V's posts about running out of money within 4 turns and thought that we cannot do too much about it.

Upon looking into the save, I have to say that there are good grounds to be worried about the economy, but no drastic measures needed. No need of switching from market to wealth in the cap, as I see it. It's enough - for the time being - to start building wealth in some of the cities that do not seem to be our unit-spitting machines (I see some rationale in W's remark about the need to get additional units fast to the front as the reason to postpone stables, and think that V's suggestion of getting down to cheaper units has good merits - including using the wounded ones for defence in newly conquered cities - that might work better in our situation than continuing to build WEs).

Wealth in Vienne, Steel Jaw and Amsterdam and some MM in the other cities that would, admittedly, slow growth, but increase gpt, could very well bring us to more than a 10-turn reserve in the treasury.

I'd also suggest to reconsider the current building activity in Beijing (archer), Killer (archer), Bibracte (library; why that and not a gran?) and Vienne (archer). A whip of the archer in Frankfurt could free 2 WEs to use in the war, IIRC. I'd also move some of the cheap defenders from cities with two of those in, to where needed.

I think that - with the already invested hammers - it's better to finish the archer in Nanjing, although a HA would have allowed to wipe out the German small stack around it (it can't be whipped next turn, though, and therefore I'm inclined to play it safely. I can't remember how many turns Bis needs to attack that city. I think we might be able to hold the city even with two archers and a phant, though, but I'd urgently get an additional unit going there, if it can get into Nanjing within 2 turns after the first potential German attack.

Oh my, we are spiritual, indeed! The realization of this has quite despirited ME...

 

[vranasm]

First part of the round is played

I took my t0 prep save and finished tasks for workers. Then reviewed a bit the cities again ;-).
Turned out that I could milk the commerce a bit more while growing and getting the deficit to -28 gpt which was very strong indeed.

Switched tech to bank into CS.

Decided to whip market in prague ;-)

Spoiler :

next turn we will probably run wealth

courthouses were whipped asap everywhere.

Gold is slowly running out, but our gpt is getting a bit better

Spoiler :

Bismarck got LB's

Spoiler :

which is not surprising. Luckilly berling and munich are not on hills so I hope that some suicide cats will solve this problem

And turning point ;-) but a lot of wealth built of course

Spoiler :

Churchill doesn't want our resources anymore

Spoiler :

The epic battle for berlin will start... 6 defenders against our suicide army

Spoiler :

First reducing city defense to 16% with 1 accuracy cat and unpromoted cats.

Spoiler :

Then some suicide. Haha we were lucky and 3rd cat withdraws!!

Spoiler :

And first win!

Spoiler :

And then its mop up... and Berlin is ours

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

And some really good things to have come with it

Spoiler :

Our gold situation is thriving

Spoiler :

I decided to build more units (catapults!!) in Chinese cities in expense of gold, bringing gpt back close to 0

And battle for munich

Spoiler :

have not enough siege though
Bismarck starts to field Maces together with LB's

And after some fights (even some unlucky) Munich is ours

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Bismarck is willing to offer peace with techs of value around 1800 bpt

Spoiler :

I think it's good point to pause the Ts to consult new situation.

To be honest I didn't realize how bad the tech situation really is and I think we have to extort some techs from Bismarck for peace and maybe 10 turns later redeclare.
Ideally I would taking CS/machinery together with calendar at least

 

[vranasm]

ok I tested this and we can get CS, Calendar + PH for peace with Bismarck, which is imo pretty sweet deal.

According to the diplo screen it looks like Biz has only capital left, but I don't understand much the Warlords UI so can be mistaken.

We have couple of calendar resources which needs calendar to be counted as happy and we could use the improvements.

So i don't see much negative there for picking up the peace.

 

[woopdeedoo]

Yes. Is there a possibility of getting a Cease Fire instead of Peace treaty? Also, Don't forget we have a GA in our cap which we could either save for a GAge or use to bomb Berlin. Both could benefit us... IMO, bombing Berlin will effectively limit Bismarck to a single city since he will be sandwiched between our and Churchill's culture.

 

[vranasm]

Yes. Is there a possibility of getting a Cease Fire instead of Peace treaty? Also, Don't forget we have a GA in our cap which we could either save for a GAge or use to bomb Berlin. Both could benefit us... IMO, bombing Berlin will effectively limit Bismarck to a single city since he will be sandwiched between our and Churchill's culture.

I don't see the point with cease fire? if we want to kill Bismarck without any advantage gained I can kill him in 3 turns.
Getting those techs and then finish him 10 turns later is imo best play here.

I wouldn't culture bomb Berlin. I almost never use GA for culture bomb mission. I am not afraid of Biz or Churchs culture in that area, they are so far away that it should be non-issue.

 

[vranasm]

I gave the situation a thought over night and this is how I see it.

We need to check if Church has Engineering, if he doesn't, I think, I would continue with pointy sticks economy. We have around 30 troops disposable (mix of WE's and cats) and they cost us money, better to get something out of it.

I would take the peace for those techs and finish Biz 10 turns later.

As for workers, it's obvious we will need to spread irrigation "everywhere". With everywhere I mean that our agri resources should be wet. Our hammer cities will be farmed.
I wouldn't overwrite cottages that are functional in some cities (this is most cottages except those in Nanjing where I would imagine farming instead).

We aim for US+FS as THE techs and should switch when appropriate (I guess around 15-20 towns would do).

I would move the capital to Beijing, the city is killer city with all those cottages and some hills and mostly grown cottages. I know I built some more cottages in Prague, but Beijing is just much better capital and central in our empire. I think it starts to be the right time to move the capital now (better said after finishing the cat in process).

I think we should spread a bit judaism, at least 1 hub should be assigned to producing jews.

As for the future tech, here I am a bit lost to be honest. Education is big priority, so I think we should employ some scientists to pop GS. We can tech Paper after getting CS from Biz.
Getting Eng would be great for the war with Churchill. To be honest charismatic protective LB's are scaring me a bit, but since I forgot that siege can kill, now I think it should be doable unless Church has Eng (castles).
Getting Guilds->Banking is another good line, since Knights and banks could help us both.

I am sure I forgot something I wanted to say , but that will come and have to see the save with new eyes.

As for the worker management I did, I think I did some mistakes, have too many workers in south west and not enough in the east, Munich, Nanjing are in need of good improvements.
The worker building cottage on plains riverside near Beijing instead of cottaging that flood plains farm is lol .
Still not sure with improvements around our city 2 ;-) and couple more.
I would spread the Shanghai rice from the east, Beijing should pop the borders in ~4 turns and the connecting plains tile should be available to be farmed to connect.

Not sure if Heroic Epic city plain tiles should be farmed or not. We need to farm there every grassland tile (and the wheat of course). 2f1h tiles are not hot at all.

Not sure how to approach the south-southwest, I almost bet irrigating everything as best, the cities there don't have much food on itself.
The same with the new city (dortmund?)

The south east (improved grass cow) should get a city.
I wanted to kill that barb city with 2 WE's, but the first WE died on 85% :-(, I would raze it anyway and resettle 1N.

 

[woopdeedoo]

I don't see the point with cease fire? if we want to kill Bismarck without any advantage gained I can kill him in 3 turns.
Getting those techs and then finish him 10 turns later is imo best play here.

I was thinking, let's get the techs we can with Cease fire, redeclare next turn...